[rbg]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Off topic, but getting violent in these situations is a really stupid response. Beating someone up for bad driving doesn't teach them anything - only leads to even more aggression on the roads.

Agree. Typically brain usually goes for a toss when anyone see blood on mother's face/body. Auto drivers also roughed the endeavour young driver (22 year old, dad bought on birthday it seems 3 months ago). Traffic cops took vehicle(s) to cubbon station while I rushed to manipal for head scan for my 3 year old. Hopefully no one has to suffer such an incident. My driving confidence is shaken since then and I always keep an eye behind me at EVERY signal now.
Anyways point well taken thanks.

[TrackDay]

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

Attachment 2117373

That Ertiga looks like a Ritz now ! One can really find the genetic similarity in both, since they are from the same family
Also the owner can claim back some taxes as the vehicle is within 4 m now.

[Kosfactor]

Shakespeare knew about this as he wrote 'Much Ado About Nothing'.

One one side we have people who count the number of airbags, then we have others who count the number of GNCAP Stars, then another group who looks at the thickness of body panels, weight of the vehicle, whether it has disc brake in the spare tyre as well, now we need crumple zones all around the vehicle and make it look like a flying saucer.

In real life being alive is always be at risk of getting killed, buy the vehicle appropriate for your use and drive safe. Simple.

want to read more?

what-is-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-india

[DicKy]

For safety.
Nothing beats a well engineered full size sedan or a five seater big crossover or full size SUV.

And as per some studies by Volvo. The safest seat is the middle seat in the 2nd row.

Had the same concern too when I first saw the 1st gen Ertiga and especially the XUV500. The 3rd rows almost touching the tailgate, when even small hatchbacks had a decent distance between the tailgate and rear bench.

As per statistics chances of rear enders are less and most are of low speed, with the occupancy rate of 3rd row low. So there isn't much bother of 3rd row safety in event of a rear end crash.

But there is no doubt that 3rd row is a dangerous place to be in a rear end crash.

Vehicles that I feel have a decent space between the rear tailgate and 3rd row are the extended versions of American full size SUVs ( Suburban, Yukon XL, Escalade ESV, Expedition EL ) and the big vans/minivans without the fourth row.

In India, the gap between the 3rd row seats and the tailgate are just so-so.
Decent ones include all the full size SUVs costing almost a crore on sale with a 3rd row, and the Kia Carnival (not the 9seater version)

Bare minimum decent ones are the Innova, Aria and the Kodiaq

Rest all 7 seaters give no chance whatsoever to the 3rd row passengers even in a small collision.

[Tassem]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

My kids always travel in the 3rd row of BR-V

If I were ever to choose a 7 seater and have my child at the back, it would be in a vehicle similar to this. You have chosen wisely Smartcat. I will just make sure that I don't load luggage above the shoulder line of the seat.

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

The fact that the rear windshield is just a few inches away from the head of a third row passenger in a 3 row car hasn’t changed

I find it appalling that some forum members are (subtlely) attacking or mocking Sanidhya for what is indeed a real issue and cause for concern not just for him but a lot of people. Just like the thousands of kids we see sitting on the front passenger's lap or hundreds who skip on quality tyres because they spent it all on good alloys, I hope their beliefs are never put to test on the road.

[subbarp]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Shakespeare knew about this as he wrote 'Much Ado About Nothing'.

One one side we have people who count the number of airbags, then we have others who count the number of GNCAP Stars, then another group who looks at the thickness of body panels, weight of the vehicle, whether it has disc brake in the spare tyre as well, now we need crumple zones all around the vehicle and make it look like a flying saucer.

We need to take a balanced view and also look at other areas that are high risk - not just focus on personal cars. While personal car safety is important, we are possibly undertaking a higher-risk elsewhere. On one hand, we focus on all the safety in cars, but do we not take auto-rickshaw or cabs (sometimes even across cities due to some reason) that have substantially lower safety. What about school buses. I am more worried about the cycle trips that kids undertake. We are possibly at higher risk in other areas.

[k10_nag]

The space between the last row and rear windscreen is typically very less across all MPVs. The design constraints of MPV itself don't help their case. The maximum difference of space amongst various brands in this segment will be less than few centimeters and it won't make any difference in real world.

For example, look at the last row in an Innova Crysta from Team-BHP's official review. I took the example of Innova Crysta as it is one of the better designed MPVs.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attac...po-2016-19.jpg

A typical light motor vehicle needs nearly 50 meters to bring down the speed from 100 kmph to standstill. So after hitting brakes, a vehicle rearending a MPV/Sedan will reduce speed at the rate of ~2 kmph per meter. But after contact, speed reduces by more than 30 kmph per meter.

A sedan provides approximately 0.5 meters of additional gap to the last row passengers. So rear passengers will be hit nearly 15 kmph slower in a sedan compared to a MPV. In most real world conditions, this speed difference doesn't translate to different outcomes. In fact, death due to rear-ending is a very less likely scenario though debilitating injuries can occur.

There are lot of assumptions in the above calculations to simplify the discussion. But the point holds true for a first order approximation.


Even Euro NCAP that has stringent safety requirements, doesn't have a requirement for last row's gap. In fact their Rear Impact test is run at 18-24 kmph and they explicitly mention that fatalities are rare in such accidents.

Quote from Euro-NCAP site:

Whiplash injuries, associated with rapid and excessive distortion of the spine, can be long-lasting, difficult to diagnose or treat and extremely debilitating. They are also common, most often occurring in low-speed, rear-end collisions. While such crashes rarely result in fatalities, the consequences of whiplash injuries have a huge impact on individuals and on society, with an estimated annual cost of some €10 billion in Europe.

To summarize, don't worry about last row safety of MPV/SUV, Don't base your buying decision on that. Other safety factors of more critical than this.

Drive safe
Nag

[superguy282]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Shakespeare knew about this as he wrote 'Much Ado About Nothing'.
One one side we have people who count the number of airbags, then we have others who count the number of GNCAP Stars, then another group who looks at the thickness of body panels, weight of the vehicle, whether it has disc brake in the spare tyre as well, now we need crumple zones all around the vehicle and make it look like a flying saucer.
In real life being alive is always be at risk of getting killed, buy the vehicle appropriate for your use and drive safe. Simple.
want to read more?
what-is-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-india

I Couldn't agree more.

You are under some x% risk the moment you sit inside a car. Does that stop you from driving? Definitely Not.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, beyond certain speeds and in certain scenarios, you are most definitely screwed in case of an accident. Tests can only determine so much in the millions of scenarios present in the real world. The fact that rear tests aren't even conducted as often are a testimony to that. There simply aren't many lethal crashes from the rear to mandate creating and developing a 'Rear crash test'.

Elaborating on this point, crumple zones on the side and back do exist, however they exist as part of the monocoque also read - B and C pillars. If you find yourself in a hypothetical situation where say, a biker hits you at high speed from the side directly on the door (not on the B-Pillar) or on the Tailgate (Not on the C pillar) then my dear sir, you have yourself a biker inside your car with you. No two ways about it. All the 'weight' of the sheet metal/ Safety rating/ Airbags will only do so much .

[BoneCollector]

I don't own a 7 seater currently, may look at it at some point of time. But my main requirement will always be of a comfortable 5 seater which can accommodate atleast 1 child car seat and 4 adults, which somehow my Brezza does.

Without digressing from the topic, I'll share my first hand experience, although in my Brezza. We were 4 adults all strapped plus 1 child ( strapped in the child seat), cruising comfortably. Traffic slows down due to both side traffic being diverted to same lane owing to repair works. And then this happens -

https://youtu.be/-8Sqy26jW34

I've inculcated a habit of always checking my rear view mirrors whenever I have to slow down. The moment I saw the truck not slowing down, I removed my foot from brake pedal. The car was thrown forward due to the impact and rammed the stationary Scorpio fitted with a bull bar. The impact may seem to be less but in reality, it did leave me with sore ribs for a few days.

Brezza took the impact pretty well, none of us were hurt. Although the boot door was pushed inside, the glass got saved. The plastic cover of spare wheel area was pushed forward into the rear seat and it damaged a few interior trims. The rear member was bent due to the impact. Front suffered damage due to the bull bar of Scorpio as it damaged the intercooler as well as radiator etc. If the boot space was smaller like that of XUV3OO, there may have been some injuries. But in case of the new Safari, there would have been definite injury.

The car is back to its prestine glory and is fine.

The cars are not tested by the companies proactively for even front impact, leave alone rear impact as of now but then it should be mandatory to do it. There are many factors that play in case of a rear ending. As luck would have it, we didn't get injured.


Copyright warning to some YouTubers who use the footage without permission, do not use this footage or snaps without my permission.

[superguy282]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

The moment I saw the truck not slowing down, I removed my foot from brake pedal.

I must say that is some really good presence of mind . If the brake was applied, the car may not have hit the Scorpio, but would have suffered far greater structural damage and quite possibly injuries to the rear passengers!

[Gaur]

Behind the thin Outer panel of any sedan/hatchback/SUV what we generally have is a very stiff Inner panel, some what like this.



This optimized inner panel provides the much needed strength to withstand a reasonable impact from rear, the rear end of any vehicle anyways is not designed to behave like a crumple zone, it designed to be as stiff as possible and avoid any intrusions.

: The difference in the crash dynamics of a frontal and rear impact is important to understand.

: In frontal impact the occupant is subjected to very high deceleration, also you are kind of physically sandwiched between your seat and various intruding parts steering/pedals/firewall/dashboard etc.. hence more severe injuries.

: Whereas in a rear impact you are at rest and on impact are subjected to accelerations which are not as high as decelerations in front impact, on impact you are actually pushed out of your seat but held back by a seatbelt and whiplash reduced by the headrest but more importantly you dont have parts intruding on you in the opposite direction and the free space between the 3rd and 2nd row actually acts as a buffer, hence less severe.

: The major high speed rear impact test FMVSS 301 which uses a barrier with 70%overlap and @80kmph is actually a test for fuel system integrity of the vehicle.

: Most of the fuel tanks,SCR taks, batteries of plugin-hybrid vehicles are located in the rear part of the vehicle hence the sole focus of high speed rear impact is to focus on protection of occupants from fire in-case of an impact.

[hserus]

I drive a scorpio with side facing rear seats, and there's NO option of fitting seatbelts to these rear seats.

My kids still love taking the rear seats and hanging on with the grab bars provided when the vehicle is full :(

I am not so happy about it of course. Is there any way to retrofit seatbelts to these? Mahindra says it is not possible.

[sentra26]

Definitely a good discussion and something I have wondered about too. My 2 cents.

A head on collision is different from a rear end collision as most of us know. In the event of a rear end collision, the car moves forward (and retains its forward momentum). In a head on collision the conservation of momentum dictates that the eventual momentum will be the individual cars momentums added together (m1v1 + m2v2). However, in the case of a rear end its just the momentum of the single car (if the other one is even stationary). If the other one is moving / has space to move there is a dissipation of kinetic energy.

Also, in these larger vehicles I'd assume the speeding trucks bumper, which is the initial surface area of contact would be below the glass. Again, I am by no means saying that manufacturer's should not strive to make the cars better in terms of rear seat safety but just sharing observations.


Some of the hatchbacks have the same issue in my opinion. But a 7 seater is typically a highway car and hence the propensity for being in high speed rear end collisions might be high. Even the hexa which had a slightly bigger boot (if I am not mistaken) seems to suffer from this problem.


On a lighter note, the isuzu v-cross is probably the safest 5 seater in an event of rear end collision.

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Well, we have to understand that traveling on a road is a risk. Designs are optimized for safety when there are too many accidents of a particular type.....
If we optimize for every single type of crash that is out there, we'd either be driving tanks or staying home due to the fear of injury/death.

Another reason is - relative velocity. If 2 cars travelling towards each other at 50kmph manage to slow down and collide when their individual speeds are 30kmph & 40kmph each, the relative velocity experiences in the collision is 30+40 = 70kmph.

But if the car at 40kmph rear-ends a car at 30kmph, the relative velocity is 40-30=10kmph, which isn't high. While 10kmph isn't a big number, a lack of rear crumple zone (especially passengers heads next to rear windshield) can cause some serious injury.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by sentra26

Definitely a good discussion and something I have wondered about too. My 2 cents.

A head on collision is different from a rear end collision as most of us know. In the event of a rear end collision, the car moves forward (and retains its forward momentum). In a head on collision the conservation of momentum dictates that the eventual momentum will be the individual cars momentums added together (m1v1 + m2v2). However, in the case of a rear end its just the momentum of the single car (if the other one is even stationary). If the other one is moving / has space to move there is a dissipation of kinetic energy.

Also, in these larger vehicles I'd assume the speeding trucks bumper, which is the initial surface area of contact would be below the glass. Again, I am by no means saying that manufacturer's should not strive to make the cars better in terms of rear seat safety but just sharing observations.


Some of the hatchbacks have the same issue in my opinion. But a 7 seater is typically a highway car and hence the propensity for being in high speed rear end collisions might be high. Even the hexa which had a slightly bigger boot (if I am not mistaken) seems to suffer from this problem.


On a lighter note, the isuzu v-cross is probably the safest 5 seater in an event of rear end collision.

A rear impact beam (like a side impact beam) should help distribute the forces of impact. If a rear curtain airbag is added, it will make the vehicle much safer.
Yes, the rear hatch will become heavier than before, but that's a small price to pay I feel.