[07CR]

I just came across this video from Motorbeam, wherein they debate whether the NCAP ratings have any double standards.

https://youtu.be/yM-8AaXRmWc

I myself had many of such questions, and am glad that people (journos) are asking the right questions publicly.

Listing few excerpts from the Motorbeam Podcast-

1) GNCAP has tested same car twice in a span of under two years which hasn't received any significant facelift or update. These are couple of old maruti cars. Instead of testing these, why not test something new and which will sell a lot, like Hyryder, Grand Vitara, new Brezza etc.
2) Nexon pre facelift was tested and scored 5 star, no update on updated Nexon rating yet Tata advertises it as 5 star rated product.
3) The day Nexon, Tiago and Tigor were launched, safety ratings of each car were announced by GNCAP. How could they time this ?
4) Kia seltos base model was tested and recieved 3 stars. Scorpio N model which was tested wasn't a base model and scored 5 stars. Why not maintain uniformity while testing?
5) GNCAP claims it's a non profit organization. It tests cars in two ways-
A) Manufacturer sends car for testing themselves and costs are borne by manufacturer.
B) When GNCAP tests a car, they test it randomly. How do they manage this being a non profit organization? Are these tests sponsored by a rival manufacturer? If yes, is it ethical and reliable?
6) All popular cars like Compass, Harrier, Safari, Hector, Hector + which have the 2.0 litre multijet diesel engine are not tested. There's a manufacturing flaw in this diesel engine wherein the oil filter assembly enters cabin when a crash happens and will impact safety. GNCAP has ignored all these cars for tests till now !
7) General observation - Most times a manufacturer themselves have sent a car for testing, the car has got 4 or more stars. Most times the GNCAP themselves have tested the cars, these have received 3 or less ⭐! Raised eyebrows!

Do share your thoughts on this.

@Mods, please move this if an appropriate thread exists.

[audioholic]

I want to sum it up in short -
1. GNCAP ratings are reliable. Thats because they outsource the activities to the best facilities of ADAC, Applus Idiada and so and isn't done in house. GNCAP is just an influencer/mediator/officially a charitable organization.

2. What I don't trust is their vehicle criteria and their overall intentions. They are no saints in that regard contrary to what they claim. Being a charitable organization they need money to run and also pay for all those expensive crash tests. So the money has to come from somewhere. Thats the reason you see selective targeting.

While there is no doubt that the Marutis and Hyundais with their pathetic score are indeed poorly crash engineered, I am sure that there are cars which have been cleverly ignored and kept away from the same tests. Hence, until these tests are made mandatory on every new model being launched and at least a mandate made that the manufacturers must display them in every ad, there won't be any uniformity.

[aravind.anand]

If you vote No here in the poll, then you probably should not trust - the ARAI rating for fuel efficiency, that energy consumption rating on electrical appliances, that rating which helped you decide your hotel room & the Swiggy or Zomato star rating that you saw before trying a new restaurant!

All these are indicators to help give consumers a fair idea of the product or service or performance. Despite all the doubts that we have regarding the test procedures and ratings, today there is no other better way to understand the safety of the vehicle I am about to purchase.

Voted for Yes.

[theAutomaniac]

The answer to this question honestly cannot be a clear yes or no!

That said, I think that Global NCAP is not amongst the most ethical organizations and has its own set of strong biases for and against manufacturers who worship them and don't respect them a bit, both respectively! Some of my observations that make me believe so-

1. Retesting of Brezza but not of Nexon-
Now, with its 2020 facelift, the Brezza had only received a new grill and a new headlamp design and yet, Global NCAP decided to retest to check Maruti (and maybe to find another opportunity to bash them.)
On the other hand, the Nexon which had received new and flatter front end was ignored. And even though Tata itself stopped using the 5 star rating in Nexon ads, Global NCAP has not bothered to check the safety of India's bestselling SUV.

2. Global NCAP's obsession with ignoring cars (Bolero, Bolero Neo, Scorpio Classic, Nexon EV, Safari, Harrier, New Brezza, New Baleno, Grand Vitara and the allegedly 3-star rated 2nd gen Swift)-
- Now, GNCAP constantly sings praises of Tata and Mahindra whenever the cars (sponsored) score high in their tests. However, the same people have ignored the 7-8k selling Bolero Duo and 4-5k selling Scorpio for years since these cars are not expected to score well. And the lesser said about Tata twins, the better!

- On the other hand, Latin NCAP had awarded the 2nd gen Swift (Dual airbags) with a 3-star rating in their tests and as per the Latin NCAP video, this car had Maruti badges and was allegedly same as the India-spec Swift. Why was the same rating not shown along with the non-airbag 0-star car? Now I agree that 2nd gen Swift never got dual airbags as standard in India, but since those were optional right from the LXI trim, I think displaying the 3-star score would've been apt to promote "Safer Cars For India"

- In the recent Maruti trio and ScorpioN crash test, GNCAP retested the old and non-updated Ignis, Swift and S-Presso but ignored the recently and heavily updated Brezza, Baleno and the all new Grand Vitara, even though these three outsell atleast one of the 3 retested hatchbacks. Coincidentally, these are the only Maruti cars which are eligible for a 4-5 star rating under the new Global NCAP norms.
Coincidence much? Maybe or maybe not!

3. The whole 2.0L MJD Fiasco-
The 2.0L MJD equipped cars from Tata, MG and Jeep sell almost 8-9k cars every month and yet, the whole allegations regarding driver safety are being ignored. Isn't this engine an obstacle in attaining the targets for "Safer Cars for India"? The ignorance is concerning!

4. Titles of Youtube videos of crash test of some cars just feel like they carry a propoganda- Where disappointment was only expressed in crash tests of the cars of the manufacturer who openly opposes them but not in the videos of the ones who comply with them or stay silent-

- "Maruti Suzuki" used in the 3-star S-Presso crash test for Africa (There's no Maruti in Africa!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdgiZIEs9So

- Swift dilutes NCAP's expectations in 2018 but the lower scoring i10 Nios did not, as per the titles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBlTEBSBxM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsFE9JyfjXs

- Unsurprisingly, even the 0-star rated Tata Zest had a simpler title not depicting any disappointment!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H7cB-uU1V8

The rest-
These discrepancies and the fact that Global NCAP crash tests are extremely limited make me think that while Global NCAP norms might not be tailored for specific manufacturers, they desperately need to cover a wider range of crash test types.

Now even if that happens and GNCAP magically starts testing for a wider range of crashes, some of our fellow countrymen just don't know how to read and interpret the test reports!
For instance, I've seen people and automotive vloggers confidently claiming that the 4-star Tiago is safer than a 3-star Carens and a 5-star Punch is safer than an XUV7OO since these smaller cars score higher than the bigger and heavier SUVs!

My another complaint would be that the owners of these higher rated cars, treat the higher score as a ticket to doing stupid lane changes, overspeeding etc, not understanding the risks associated! And when you try to confront these people, their go-to response is "Its a tank bro, it is safe than the tins and will save me". Spoiler alert, it won't!

Summarizing my post- Global NCAP has its fair share of discrepancies and limitations, but even if NCAP sorts out everything, 95% of us are way too ignorant to understand the reports correctly, thus nullifying the entire purpose behind these crash tests.
Also, everything aside, we cannot complain much against Global NCAP due to the lack of options. Let's hope the government-funded Bharat NCAP comes soon to make things better for everyone.

[padmrajravi]

I trust their ratings, but I do think they target certain manufacturers and try to paint a good picture about some others. Nothing else can explain Harrier twins remaining untested and Suzuki cars being tested multiple times.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

If you vote No here in the poll, then you probably should not trust - the ARAI rating for fuel efficiency, that energy consumption rating on electrical appliances, that rating which helped you decide your hotel room & the Swiggy or Zomato star rating that you saw before trying a new restaurant!

That's an interesting way to put it. I would agree to an extent. These are not regulated and mandatory, hence their own process year on year, car on car is often not completely comparable.

While unlike efficiency and FE ratings, safety ratings are less absolute, and there are too many other variables involved. So even if you want to trust them for the process they run, the rating itself is less relatable to the eventual end user situation even in a relative scenario.

[theAutomaniac]

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

If you vote No here in the poll, then you probably should not trust - the ARAI rating for fuel efficiency, that energy consumption rating on electrical appliances, that rating which helped you decide your hotel room & the Swiggy or Zomato star rating that you saw before trying a new restaurant!

All these are indicators to help give consumers a fair idea of the product or service or performance. Despite all the doubts that we have regarding the test procedures and ratings, today there is no other better way to understand the safety of the vehicle I am about to purchase.

I'm not really sure how Zomato, Google ratings and ARAI are in the same boat as Global NCAP.

Services like Zomato, Google Maps and Swiggy are paid by restaurants and organisations equally depending on the scale of services and the ratings are derived from customer feedback.

ARAI meanwhile, is a government department which is managed and funded by the govt.

Global NCAP is neither paid to do the crash tests by every manufacturer and nor are financially-backed or managed or even outsourced by the government of India.

This is where the government mandated and funded Bharat NCAP comes into play where we would get crash test ratings for all cars and crash tests could be tailored for our conditions (e.g. truck underrun, side barrier etc)

Knowing our past and present and future leaders, the chances of 100% unbiased ratings are still less, but since governments keep changing, we would at least get to know about scams in every few years.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

If you vote No here in the poll, then you probably should not trust - the ARAI rating for fuel efficiency, that energy consumption rating on electrical appliances, that rating which helped you decide your hotel room & the Swiggy or Zomato star rating that you saw before trying a new restaurant!
.

Would you buy a car solely on the results of the JD Power customer satisfaction results if safety was kept out of this discussion? GNCAP is similar to that. ARAI ratings are done for every single car that's sold in our country and if not absolute gives a relative comparison of how Car A fares against Car B. GNCAP gives you a similar picture except that it offers a selection of car.models only.

[sunikkat]

Voted ‘Yes’, as I have not seen any proofs pointing out the reliability/unreliability of these tests. But I would anyday trust a GNCAP test results, than a manufacturer showing 2 elephants can stand over their car (guess I don’t have to call out the car here).

[vipul_singh]

The crash data glyphs: probably and hopefully yes
The star rating: no

Case in point: Scorpio-N. Quite misleading. Cross link to my previous post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ml#post5455869 (Global NCAP puts Scorpio-N, Swift, Ignis and S-Presso through updated crash tests)

[Meph1st0]

Voted - yes

I do consider the ratings reliable, there is no bias in the tests with respect to any manufacturer.

For me as a car user, this is another parameter which I cannot get from any other source. There can be questions like considering the top-end variants for certain cars, some models being left out, etc.
What is helpful to me is more cars being tested resulting in more information. One should always check which variant was tested and when (time frame) it was tested for better interpretation of the results as the tests evolve over time and the older ratings may not be applicable in the present.

Originally Posted by vipul_singh

Case in point: Scorpio-N. Quite misleading. Cross link to my previous post:

Scorpio-N performs better than Taigun in Side movable deformable barrier test (car) which mostly offsets the poorer performance in the front offset deformable barrier test. Hence the total score is more or less similar and the ratings.

[fiat_tarun]

Trust the result - Definitely Yes.
The tests are conducted at top quality, certified labs and the process and scoring while very complicated is published for everyone to see.

The method of choosing vehicles is of course tailored to their agenda. The program runs via donations, so of course there is going to be a bias towards members that voluntarily participate. Maruti has been vocal in dismissing GNCAP results, while also refusing to improve crash safety and hence are being targetted.

Hyundai/Kia actually voluntured the Carens and hence may have scored some brownie points in not being the main punching bag !

This 'way of business' actually applies to even the automotive media who are funded by auto manufactures's advertising revenue and hence play the diplomatic line very well. For e.g., Hyundai / Kia have a very strong PR team and big media budget and hence you will hardly ever find anything negative about them in the mainstream auto media

GNCAP's India program was meant to create awareness and I think they have achieved that. What we want is for every car to be tested and for that we need Bharat NCAP to see the light of day. After the draft was released, there is a 30 day window for comments post which the government considers the inputs and releases the final draft. However it has been many months now and there is no update, which means the powers from within have successfully delayed this and it is unlikely to come into effect from April 2023 .

I sincerly hope it does come through and we get the BNCAP to start in 2023.

[Bluengel180]

Trust the results -Yes

The cars the test are either supplied by manufacturers or bought by the organization itself. They are a charitable organization and cannot afford to test every car out there. They will test every car they recieve whether it is supplied by the manufacturer itself or a competitor.

Why is every car of X manufacturer tested? Because they willingly supplied it.

Why is X car not tested? Because the manufacturer did not supply it and it wasnt a popular or a cheap car to test without a donor.

The MJD 2.0 cars are talked a lot in this thread. Let us not forget that these are all retailing for 2 million plus in the market and for a charity it makes more sense to only test these if sponsored by the manufacturer.

If Maruti/Hyundai want more of their cars to be showcased it doesn't cost them a lot to provide donors. Tata and Mahindra do. Yet we want to shoot the messenger instead of asking why these manufacturers don't willingly supply thier cars for testing to what is now a popular safety metric. Let us also not forget that the Indian versions are usually much different from the ones the other countries get so GNCAP is the only one that tests India specific versions.

[shamanths3]

Votes Yes. However do I drive like a maniac just because my car is safe, no. But does it give me a peace of mind, absolutely Yes.

On the other point, recently I am seeing lot of lobbying like articles to discredit GNCAP whether it's true or not and seems all these are unhappy that Maruti car was taken for testing. Sholdnt Consumers and publishers be happy that their car is being tested making their own buyers safer?

[argchoff]

GNCAP has somehow managed to avoid testing the Harrier, Safari, Hector diesel and the Jeep compass. Its been 2 years now since Seltos was crash tested and these cars have been around all this time. Yet it's just Maruti Suzuki, Hyundai and Kia that seems to be tested or targeted.

This obviously brings some amount of suspicion as to whether some manufacturers are having enough influence on GNCAP to stop them from testing some vehicles.

Although I feel the actual testing is carried out properly, this selective approach diminishes the credibility of the organisation