[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by AbhishekB86

There we go stereotyping again. What if I told you that most of these boys don't speak Hindi as their language of choice? I am sure others who have been caught in a melly around Central Delhi would testify the same...

I'm sorry if you felt that my post stereotyped Delhi-ites. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm honestly NOT a regionalist. I was stating MY unfortunate experience(s) with people from Delhi.

-Rgds

[aroop]

Originally Posted by AbhishekB86

.. A lot of them are in scooter or very underpowered bikes.

The reason why they're different from biking enthusiasts is because it's not about thrills of the machine or riding but about defying law & order. It's the mob mentality to break law and order, to create chaos, trouble road users. Even if you build 5 race tracks it wouldn't be fun as long as they're not destroying something. Mob mentality is a different ball game altogether.

Agree to the above. At the risk of sterotyping, I feel that the age (tweens) coupled with lack of control of parents makes these guys defiant. Add to the fact that there are stories of the inability of the administration to provide suitable punishment, such guys have a field day. Let the media create a suitable example of such folks. Of course, it cannot be eliminated, as we have seen drunk driving examples throughout the country.

[F150]

Poor decision made by the police to fire at the bikers.

India doesn't have the machinery or the will to enforce laws, lets accept it and move on.

[sgiitk]

We all know Biker's Gangs are a menace. There were some 150 odd chaps speeding on the road. It is sad that a life is lost but they were asking for it. I expect mad stunts on the public roads to cease for quite some time.

I have no sympathy for the PUCL lady who was bleating as usual on the box last night.

[sen2009]

Originally Posted by AbhishekB86

However scenes like the following haven't been curbed yet. Delhi Police could have done better but please understand the police force in Delhi is too busy attending to the VIP's and secondly they don't have the equipment to deal with this. The only time they have access to these weapons and detterents is when the protest is against the ruling govt. Case in point being closing down India gate and I getting lathi charged in the process of the women's right protests post Dec 16th.

Thanks for posting a very relevant video here. I can clearly see how these "hooligans" absolutely traumatized the Qualis and the Esteem. Also a dumper truck coming from opposite side got almost face on with a wheelie in action.

Cannot disagree anymore that a self loading rifle is the only real answer and police did the right thing. If this incident of "dealing judgement via super fast track" would not stop them for good - a proper "ethnic cleansing" plan should be readied ASAP. There will be no dearth of volunteers, at least not from the cyber world.


I cannot believe myself when I see many senior people (not only here, but in the physical world also), who has raised and groomed many a youngster into excellent nation builders support killing one young boy of 19 years age.
Common people, at least think that the boy probably did not even realize the extent of trouble he was causing. Should we not as an educated part of the society take a more mature stand and advocate "milder" means to educate them?

[srishiva]

One of my friend asked a cop on why cant they stop the stunt bikers with their lathis (throw them at their bikes or wheels as such). The police said they were informed that this could endanger the poor kids and they try to catch them gently

This incident was really unfortunate and I always believe accidents and these things that lead to death are the silliest and worst ways to die.

[Aditya]

Brings back memories from some years ago. Just that guns weren't used here.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...thi-police-van

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by sen2009

... "hooligans" absolutely traumatized the Qualis and the Esteem. Also a dumper truck...
Cannot disagree anymore that a self loading rifle is the only real answer and police did the right thing. If this incident of "dealing judgement via super fast track" would not stop them for good - a proper "ethnic cleansing" plan...
...I see many senior people (not only here, but in the physical world also), who has raised and groomed many a youngster into excellent nation builders support killing one young boy of 19 years age.
...a more mature stand and advocate "milder" means to educate them?

How many times have you willingly broken the law (even if it is just to jump a red light)?

How many times have you been missing from home without your parents being aware of it? How many times during your teens and early twenties have you left home after 11:30 pm without your parent(s) knowing? Or stayed out overnight without the parents knowing where you went? And if you have, please tell us honestly, what the repercussions had been from your parents the next morning.

How many times have your parents tweaked your left earlobe, accompanied by a tight slap to your face, when you did something wrong? How many times did the thought of a repeat tweaking prevent you from repeating your wrongdoing? (Yes, yes, I know - you will now set forth with a tirade against capital punishment for children - but tell your parents about it, not the forum. I'm sure your parents will play 'rev up the throttle' with your earlobe once again.)

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" does have its believers among senior people - considering the way the nation is being built by a majority of today's youngsters.

Originally Posted by [URL="http://zeenews.india.com/news/delhi/firing-by-delhi-police-at-parliament-street-stunt-biker-killed_865011.html?pagenumber=3"

ZeeNews[/url]]Police has wronged as they don't have the right to kill a child. Cops who killed him should be hanged," said Pandey's mother Manju.

Questioning the police version, she claimed her son didn't even knew how to ride a motorbike and demanded that a post-mortem be done by a team of doctors.

"My son doesn't even know how to ride a motorcycle and we also don't have a motorbike at home. He also doesn't indulge in drugs. If he was indulging in hooliganism or had misbehaved with them, they could have lathi-charged or arrested him, but they shouldn't have fired at him. He was my only son," she said

Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1866887/report-he-had-no-bike-and-was-not-part-of-any-biker-gang-says-killed-biker-s-family"

dnaindia[/url]]Till 11:30 pm last night he was with the family at home and his mother locked the front door and then he went to his room. We don’t know when he left home. Around 6 in the morning police came with a boy and told Karan’s mother that her son has met with an accident.
-----------
Puneet Sharma, who was driving the bike, is out of danger. His father said police fabricated the story of Puneet being under the influence of alcohol.
“My son is a teetotaller. Last night he called me from his office that he might not come home as he has planned to go to Gurudwara Bangla Sahib to eat something with his friend. He doesn’t have any relation whatsoever with any biker gang,” Puneet’s father HP Singh said.
“We had never met Karan, but Puneet had told us about him. Yesterday too he said that he’s going out with his friend. The bike is in my name and my son had all the documents including his licence. I don’t think one can perform stunts with a 125 cc bike. This is just anarchy,” Singh said.

Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.millenniumpost.in/NewsContent.aspx?NID=34142"

millenniumpost[/url]]Punit had left home around 11 pm on Saturday and said he would not return that night.

It is not about supporting the killing, but accepting the consequences of breaking the law one time too many.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by manolin

This is just not acceptable from any police force. Unless there is a clear and imminent danger to a person's life, the police has no business firing live ammunition on the streets. And to all those posters here on the forum who are taking the moral highline - please have a rethink - the question is very similar to a situation where you have run a red-light and the police fires on you because you refused to stop.

Guns are not for idiots, and this is idiocy. Hope they are punished - this is clearly against any system of proportionate action which is the very basis of police work - am dead sure that the police manual does not at any point teaches this.

Sheesh! Firing live ammo (and killing a person )for an motor Vehicle act offence - the tragedy and the stupidity and the sheer absence of brains or training.

Ps: Though it is of no real help, I hope they sue the shit out of the Police department - In a western country, something like this can result in the police department paying millions in compensation.

I was at Le meridian last night for a reception. - which is very close to the incident. I left an hour before the incident happened. There were a couple of nakabandis at India Gate. What if I had knocked a police barricade - if the same cop was there, should he have fired at me. Seriously what is wrong in this country. And as I read back more of this thread - people are using terms like the police reaction was a 'bit over the top', 'what would police do' - a bit ? really? Someone just lost his life because of some idiocy. What would the police do? It should do nothing if it is incapable of not doing this.

The police were not using lethal force because a bunch of bikers were doing wheelies, the thugs were attacking the outnumbered cops and when the cops responded, one of them ended up facing the consequences. The situation is not similar to jumping a traffic light, it is similar to stopping at a traffic light and pelting stones at the cop for not changing the signal and letting you go.

In Western countries, the cops are pretty useless, Western Europe seems to have months of mob violence with cops standing around just like in India. In the US however, if you attack a cop while under the influence, you will end up dead and no compensation will be paid. The stand your ground law which came to the limelight recently , specifically protects this, if you are not doing something illegal, you can resort to lethal force if someone attacks you. The cops had every right to resort to force.

Knocking down a police barricade is not something that happens all the time, drunk drivers try that, I doubt you were at any risk at all from the cops.

[manolin]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The police were not using lethal force because a bunch of bikers were doing wheelies, the thugs were attacking the outnumbered cops and when the cops responded, one of them ended up facing the consequences. The situation is not similar to jumping a traffic light, it is similar to stopping at a traffic light and pelting stones at the cop for not changing the signal and letting you go.

In Western countries, the cops are pretty useless, Western Europe seems to have months of mob violence with cops standing around just like in India. In the US however, if you attack a cop while under the influence, you will end up dead and no compensation will be paid. The stand your ground law which came to the limelight recently , specifically protects this, if you are not doing something illegal, you can resort to lethal force if someone attacks you. The cops had every right to resort to force.

Knocking down a police barricade is not something that happens all the time, drunk drivers try that, I doubt you were at any risk at all from the cops.

The stand your ground law you are referring to, also came under major criticism for the exactly same reason - that is one law where the disadvantaged or racially profiled people are very easy targets - so much so that Obama himself said that it could easily have been him in his younger days. Switch color for any other racial/economic sterotype in india.

Besides in India, I don't think stand your ground is a recognized principle, and definitely not for lethal retaliation as was done here.

[I am not even getting into the fact that the biker was on a pillion and going away from the police, and was fired on from the back. So its not even 'stand your ground' US law.]

to SS traveller : Too many brushes with the law also doesn't make you a fair target for the police. Nor should a serial offender's death in an indiscriminate firing be accepted. Don't brush abuse of power by police with this moral brush of parents not teaching values.


Knocking over a barricade and running away; taking a turn at high speed and hitting a parked police vehicle, and running away; even hitting a person and running away - none of these are situations in which indiscriminate firing is allowed or should be allowed.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by manolin

to SS traveller : Too many brushes with the law also doesn't make you a fair target for the police.

In the VVIP zone of Delhi, where the incident took place, you could be shot for cutting into the motorcade of such a VVIP. The Delhi Police is under extreme pressure to preserve law and order in this zone at any cost. Please understand this first, and then you would recognize that this was bound to happen.

..indiscriminate firing...

Only one shot was fired at the bikers. Warning shots had been fired in the air to warn / scare them off, before the fatal shot was fired.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by ebonho

My stand on this is very clear. Forget sham suspensions and court of enquiries. If there is divine justice up there, may this police guy lose one of his own in a similar manner one day.

I must say I have to disagree with you here. If you experience one of the biker gangs, you will feel that divine justice has been served in this case. When the bikers dont think twice of breaking the law, and even assaulting other motorists, then incidents like this will happen.

The loss of life is always unfortunate, but sometimes, you have to realize the pressures under which the cops operate. You keep provoking someone, and sometimes, someone might just retaliate. The bikers were at fault here, the cops were not. I hope no cop pays the price with even a "sham suspension" in this case, cos its not warranted.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

In general in life the principle is to assume innocent until proven guilty. Popping a bunch of wheelies does NOT give any policeman license to kill. Such policemen should only be tried for cold blooded murder of innocents. I cannot imagine how shooting at the tyres led to a pillion dying (shooting wide by almost 3-4 ft!) - clearly our police is far from the trained efficient force they pretend to be. They are clearly not too fit to carry their weapons!

The cops were responding to a complaint, they tried to get the bikers to stop, warnings were issued, but the gang pelted stones at the cops. The bikers broke the law, failed to stop, assaulted the cops, and then you accuse the cops of cold blooded murder. Seriously, do you think that the cops really intended to commit Cold blooded murder?

You say that the cops are not fit to carry their weapons, well, I think these bikers were not fit to own or ride bikes, since they could not care to obey the laws.

I think its become easy to blame everything on the cops, they're damned if they take action, and damned if they dont take action.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

I must say I have to disagree with you here. If you experience one of the biker gangs, you will feel that divine justice has been served in this case. When the bikers dont think twice of breaking the law, and even assaulting other motorists, then incidents like this will happen.

The loss of life is always unfortunate, but sometimes, you have to realize the pressures under which the cops operate. You keep provoking someone, and sometimes, someone might just retaliate. The bikers were at fault here, the cops were not. I hope no cop pays the price with even a "sham suspension" in this case, cos its not warranted.

Pressure and provocation cannot be put forward as an excuse for manslaughter. That's what this was. And by someone who is entrusted to uphold the law and due process no less.

As the police, your duty is to maintain the law with all the state machinery at your disposal. If these gangs are a regular menace, then the police has simply not been doing its job in allowing it to continue.

Chase the perpetrators. Catch them. Give them a few solid slaps. Call their parents, and get signed guarantees. Put pressure on them via their college/office etc. Put them in a cell and make them eat jail food and enjoy the company for a few days. Make them do some form of community service as punishment. Confiscate their license and bikes.

What kind of solution is whipping out a gun and shooting a kid dead? Is this the Wild West?

[Akshay1234]

I'm going to have to agree that the Police was not wrong in taking such a measure. If these bikers are anything like the groups of bikers who are out in Mumbai at night, then it certainly was justified. These are people who have no respect for other people, and think they are above the Police. They try and run away from Police even after being told to stop. The fact that these people had the audacity to throw stones on the Police shows their thought process.

I am of a similar age to these guys, and believe me, not me or any of my friends could even think of behaving in such a manner. I don't know what makes some people of my age do it, but it takes strong measures like these to bring some fear into them. In Bombay I have seen these groups of bikers stopping cars and extorting money after they crash into the car. These guys have no common sense, and go through busy intersections on full throttle, even causing accidents.

They blatantly disregard traffic rules, and break signals in the middle of the day in front of cops, and when cops try and stop them they push cops away and zoom off. If people behave like that with cops how do you expect them to react? If these guys continued with their nonsense after the Police fired warning shots in the air (which shows they mean business, I mean these guys aren't going to take out their weapons unless they have really been provoked), then they have to face the consequences.

Sorry for being unsympathetic, pillion or not, all those guys are nuts. I hope this acts as a deterrent to some of the fools. At least in Mumbai it seems to have reduced, with the Police organizing naka bandis and checking all bikers. Unfortunate that the few well behaved bikers have to suffer with these extra checks for the rowdy nutcases who cause havoc at night.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by sameerg001

Sad to see a young life wasted like this. Now his parents will suffer for whole life, just because he was a pillion with his friend and were doing stunts.

Crazy country we live in, where people committing crimes like rape /murder etc are not shot dead, but those breaking traffic laws are.

The situation could have been controlled easily, I don't see any point in justifying this act of police.

God give strength to his parents, to bear this pain.

How many people have you seen shot dead for breaking traffic rules? If what you say is true then half of India's population would have been shot dead by now. Because that is how frequently we break traffic rules. So, please do not over-state.

As someone has rightly said, for the greater good of many, a few must perish. Here "a few" means criminals. I have absolutely no sympathy for criminals and crooks. They just must be eliminated. You may look at the bike riders as just a bunch of teenager out to have fun. But trust me, these very same guys would grow into hardened criminals, if their current behaviour is any indication.