[supremeBaleno]

It's indeed sad that close to 300 folks had to lose their lives and their families to suffer for no fault of theirs. Whoever did this needs to be punished.

Originally Posted by RSR

I hope the Dutch put pressure on their EU, NATO and American friends to punish the criminals and their backers

LOL. That is like the pot calling out for punishing the kettle for being black. The US has used every trick in the book to destabilize so many countries, killing thousands of citizens there, looting the wealth etc etc. And if we need them to punish the Russians (if at all they are behind this plane downing), nothing can be more ironic.

Originally Posted by RSR

May these vile Russkies get their deserved comeuppance from the heavens sooner or later!

If indeed there was such swift divine justice, the USofA would have been razed many times over for all their crimes - Vietnam, Afghan, Iraq, the list stretches on.

Originally Posted by RSR

The mark of a civilised country is to learn from its past mistakes and avoid the same in the future.

That is not about being civilised, but about wanting to reform. You can be civilised, yet keep doing all kinds of crap to anyone, provided you have the means to evade punishment, like US is doing today. The only thing they will learn from their past mistake is how to do the same thing better.

Originally Posted by RSR

The Western European countries may have been at each other's throats in the last century and before that, but thankfully I don't see this happening again. In fact, they may (or already have) become an inseparable, loving family.

That they definitely did - becoming a loving family. That is, if you ignore the minor technicality of the patriarch snooping on the other members.
Just that instead of fighting among themselves, they now gang up and go after other countries, razing them to the ground, destabilising them and killing (directly & indirectly) millions there.

[amitoj]

I wonder how this one event is going to change the course of the planet in the coming few weeks/months. And it sends a chill down the spine.

Now, rest of the post is off topic because the quoted portions that i am replying to are off topic.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The US has used every trick in the book to destabilize so many countries, killing thousands of citizens there, looting the wealth etc etc. And if we need them to punish the Russians (if at all they are behind this plane downing), nothing can be more ironic.

If indeed there was such swift divine justice, the USofA would have been razed many times over for all their crimes - Vietnam, Afghan, Iraq, the list stretches on.

That is not about being civilised, but about wanting to reform. You can be civilised, yet keep doing all kinds of crap to anyone, provided you have the means to evade punishment, like US is doing today.

Wow! So much hate towards one country!! By the way, do you feel the same way towards UK as well? The British looted and pillaged our own country. Not to mention the mess they have left in Africa. I so wish to highlight the various examples of intentional destabilization in our own country but that would mean breaking the rules. Its just kettle calling the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally Posted by humyum

Look at the USA and its double standards, supported Taliban against Soviets and now are against them, Backed Saddam Hussain during the Iran Iraq war and then went against him, Shah Of Iran was a friend and latter did nothing to protect him, infact they were skeptical about letting him come to America too when he was on the run.

America is good from far, far from good. It's a keep distance country. Look at Russia, always willing to help. The BRICS is going to bring down the American hegemony on this planet.

Don't get me wrong, I love America, infact would love to settle there one day, but their foreign policy is a disaster.

Lets say you have a pesky neighbor who keeps threatening you. You get a dog to protect yourself from him. The dog in stead turns on you. What would you do? Keep feeding and nurturing the dog while it bites your hand?

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by amitoj

I wonder how this one event is going to change the course of the planet in the coming few weeks/months. And it sends a chill down the spine.

Now, rest of the post is off topic because the quoted portions that i am replying to are off topic.



Wow! So much hate towards one country!! By the way, do you feel the same way towards UK as well? The British looted and pillaged our own country. Not to mention the mess they have left in Africa. I so wish to highlight the various examples of intentional destabilization in our own country but that would mean breaking the rules. Its just kettle calling the pot calling the kettle black.



Lets say you have a pesky neighbor who keeps threatening you. You get a dog to protect yourself from him. The dog in stead turns on you. What would you do? Keep feeding and nurturing the dog while it bites your hand?

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Well, the pesky neighbor was a pesky neighbor from day one, the pesky neighbor had initiated chemical warfare and gassed 5 thousand innocent Kurds in Iraq during the Iran Iraq war, its OWN people. That did not cross American's red line that time, but when rebels launched Sarine gas missiles and killed Syrians, America blamed Assad (obviously) which was later proved was launched by the Rebels, for Assad the redline was chemical weapons, for the rebels even after the rebels were proved to have fired the chemical weapons the line was 500 Million in funds asked by Obama from the Congress to support these guys more.

The pesky neighbor here is the United States of America which itself is the dog biting hard on anything that comes in their foreign policy.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Wow! So much hate towards one country!!

Hate ? Where did you read that ? Those are facts, which you might choose to ignore, but does not make them otherwise. Folks in Iraq are still reeling under the US actions resulting from imaginary WMD, which if at all there, would have been provided by the US, when Saddam was a friend. I don't hate the US, just what they do to other states.

Originally Posted by amitoj

The British looted and pillaged our own country. Not to mention the mess they have left in Africa.

Does that make the US a saint ? There was so much bile against the "Russkies", which apparently you failed to notice, but only the stuff written about US actions stood out to get your attention.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Hate ? Where did you read that ? Those are facts, which you might choose to ignore, but does not make them otherwise. Folks in Iraq are still reeling under the US actions resulting from imaginary WMD, which if at all there, would have been provided by the US, when Saddam was a friend. I don't hate the US, just what they do to other states.

Does that make the US a saint ? There was so much bile against the "Russkies", which apparently you failed to notice, but only the stuff written about US actions stood out to get your attention.

Sigh. It is so tiresome when i have to re-quote AND highlight portions of someone else's post to remind them what they said:

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If indeed there was such swift divine justice, the USofA would have been razed many times over for all their crimes - Vietnam, Afghan, Iraq, the list stretches on.

Everyone hopes for justice. And your definition of justice is razing an entire country to the ground! If that's not hate, then I shudder to imagine what your definition of hate would be.

As for the "bile" against the "Russkies" if it was there then it's level of "bile"ness was way less than the bile against US. Hence it missed my attention and will continue to miss my attention. And I can understand talking about Russia in this thread, because this happened in their backyard. But what are we doing talking about US here?? it seems to have become everyone and their uncle's favorite whipping boy in living room discussions!

As for "folks" in Iraq, their problem is that they can't seem to be able to live peacefully with each other! It is in their culture to keep fighting with someone or the other. Yeah maybe they were marginally better off under Saddam but only if they belonged to a certain section of the society there. I am not going to say that US invaded Iraq to liberate those people or to destroy WMDs. It went there to protect its oil interests and thats what it did.

The other examples that you mentioned like Vietnam etc, now it is my turn to point out that you are conveniently forgetting the other party in these situations. Namely the Russkies!

Originally Posted by humyum

Well, the pesky neighbor was a pesky neighbor from day one, the pesky neighbor had initiated chemical warfare and gassed 5 thousand innocent Kurds in Iraq during the Iran Iraq war, its OWN people. That did not cross American's red line that time, but when rebels launched Sarine gas missiles and killed Syrians, America blamed Assad (obviously) which was later proved was launched by the Rebels, for Assad the redline was chemical weapons, for the rebels even after the rebels were proved to have fired the chemical weapons the line was 500 Million in funds asked by Obama from the Congress to support these guys more.

The pesky neighbor here is the United States of America which itself is the dog biting hard on anything that comes in their foreign policy.

Talk about taking an analogy and killing it

Yes America right now has the wherewithal to protect its interests. And it will continue to do so till it can. All that BRICS can do is pretend to act bigger than what they really are.


Now, so far, all I am hearing is what the conspiracy theorists say. Things like moon landings etc. Would be nice if you all can provide some credible sources for your history knowledge!

[Samurai]

Jeremy Scahill wrote a book called Dirty Wars... I read it. It is too shocking.

He talks about it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWqQNG03MhU

[StarrySky]

I think the plane was shot down as part of a American conspiracy to turn the world's attention away from Gaza where Israel "coincidentally" started ground invasion yesterday. Ukraine military forces with the knowledge of US shot the plane down. The second goal, of course, is to isolate Russia.

Far fetched? Yes. But not beyond the country which dropped 2 nuclear bombs on civilians (3 days apart, no accidents or mistakes there!), used Napalm bombs against civilians in Vietnam and faked intelligence to justify invasion of Iraq. God protect me from CIA if my conspiracy theory has any element of truth in it

If conspiracy theories are true, US was also behind the infamous espionage case in Kerala, which lead to the wrongful arrest of Indian scientists working on the Cyrogenic engine and set our cryogenic program back by 2 decades.

I know as a developed country and one of the foremost countries in the tech industry, the US is a land of opportunities for many people around the world and many Indians. But, when it comes to foreign policy, to borrow a Malayalam saying - "kudikkunna vellathil polum viswasikkaruthu" (loosely translates to "Be suspicious of even plain water offered by them").

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Sigh. It is so tiresome when i have to re-quote AND highlight portions of someone else's post to remind them what they said:Everyone hopes for justice. And your definition of justice is razing an entire country to the ground! If that's not hate, then I shudder to imagine what your definition of hate would be.

You really did not have to tire yourself out. My post was in response to RSR asking for divine justice for what the Russians did. And all I said was if justice were indeed delivered that way (which unfortunately is not how things happen in this world), the US needed to also get back what it gave others. You can define it as hatred, but that is just payback according to me.

Originally Posted by amitoj

As for the "bile" against the "Russkies" if it was there then it's level of "bile"ness was way less than the bile against US. Hence it missed my attention and will continue to miss my attention.

This is neither about what you think is low or high nor whether your attention matters. Everyone is free to interpret the thread as they feel like and to say that Russians are evil, while the US is angelic is plain BS, irrespective of whether you or someone else agrees or not. Neither of them are angels.

Originally Posted by amitoj

As for "folks" in Iraq, their problem is that they can't seem to be able to live peacefully with each other! It is in their culture to keep fighting with someone or the other. Yeah maybe they were marginally better off under Saddam but only if they belonged to a certain section of the society there. I am not going to say that US invaded Iraq to liberate those people or to destroy WMDs. It went there to protect its oil interests and thats what it did.

To take your own dog/neighbour analogy, if 2 of your neighbours are fighting, does it require that you go in and make it worse for them ? Oil interests. Having the blood of millions of folks on their hands for oil. Here folks are crying themselves hoarse for the 300 lives lost in this tragedy, which could have been intentional or a mistake (not clear yet). But here we have people ignoring the death of millions which was a pre-planned game for securing oil. Good job justifying the Americans.

Originally Posted by amitoj

you are conveniently forgetting the other party in these situations. Namely the Russkies!

Yeah, it is always the other party. The US is always clean.

[drmohitg]

Sort of ironical that one plane with western citizens on board goes down and the whole world starts shouting from there roof tops. We even get a thread discussing the same here. But at the same time the Israelis are killing hundreds and thousands of Palestinians at there whims and fancies and the world chooses to stay quiet.

@starrysky: I totally think your explanation of the events might not be too far fetched. The US is very much capable of carrying over something like that.

[amitoj]

I dont have access to a laptop so i am replying from my iphone and i dont know how to quote posts but wow. While we are at it, why dont we blame US for natural disasters too! Maybe they are not really natural disasters but weather disturbances created by CIA to destabilize the threats!

Again all i am hearing on this thread is diatribe without an iota of proof or credible sources.

Don Quixote charging at the windmills!!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Again all i am hearing on this thread is diatribe without an iota of proof or credible sources.

Don Quixote charging at the windmills!!

Amen to that. Is's like troubleshooting problems on cars. Somebody puts out a problem with his car on the forum and the next thing you know we have members suggesting to replace the ECU, without really understanding or analyzing what the problem is.

On this one, nobody really has a clue what happened. Let's hear/find about the facts first, before jumping to any conclusions or worse yet, suggest actions.

Jeroen

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Again all i am hearing on this thread is diatribe without an iota of proof or credible sources.

Don Quixote charging at the windmills!!

Jeremy Scahill is not credible enough for you? His books Blackwater and Dirty Wars are highly acclaimed. Both are NY times best sellers.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15814204-dirty-wars

[humyum]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Talk about taking an analogy and killing it

Originally Posted by amitoj

Yes America right now has the wherewithal to protect its interests. And it will continue to do so till it can. All that BRICS can do is pretend to act bigger than what they really are.

Haan , but that interest is causing hundreds of thousands of lives to be lost in other countries What about that ? When US lives are lost, there is instant retaliation, when US causes X10 times more causalities, that's all right, they were not Americans right ?

Originally Posted by amitoj

Now, so far, all I am hearing is what the conspiracy theorists say. Things like moon landings etc. Would be nice if you all can provide some credible sources for your history knowledge!

Well here goes

About Saddam gassing the Kurds

--> http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...he_gassed_iran

--> http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn

And its no consipiracy theory that America backed Saddam from the first to the last day of the Iran Iraq war


America during the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War about to attack India and how Russia saved us.

---> http://in.rbth.com/articles/2011/12/...acy_14041.html

America supporting terrorists in Syria --> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A331ZI20140404

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A0Q1S320140127

Obama asks for 500 billion to support Syrian rebels (terrorists)

----> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-se...syrian-rebels/

and these are the people he wants to fund

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFZhQ4u2Cbg

Us threatens to bomb Pakistan to stone age if it does not support them in their fight against Al Qaida

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5369198.stm

I hope these proofs are good enough

Again I say, Don't get me wrong, I LOVE AMERICA and Israel too, but their foreign policy just is too murderous !

[searchingheaven]

My 2 cents:

Link The photo in that guy's FB post shows MH-17 as Reg no. 9M-MRC, whereas 9M-MRC hasn't been to Amsterdam since July 11th. The last it operated as MH-17 was on 11th July, 2014. So it was surely 9M-MRD. Can anybody explain the reason for this irregularity or was it a mistake on his part?

Now some small facts which might make you think.

• 9M-MRD, the Boeing 777-200 operating as MH-17 made its maiden flight exactly 17 years ago on 17/07/97.
  
• The 2 incidents(MH370 and MH17) are not disconnected. The same aircrafts, with the registration being different by only one letter. 9M-MRO(MH-370) and 9M-MRD(MH-17). Doesn't it say something? The odds of this being a co-incidence are a million to one.
  
• Moscow is UTC+4. So if the aircraft was shot down at 13:21 UTC, its highly unlikely that Igor Girkin could've made the social media posts just 15 mins after the crash(i.e at 17:37 MCK Moscow Std. Time). And that's just assuming that it was indeed shot at 13:21. Transponder Contact was lost at that time. It would have been on the ground and verified at least 10 mins later. i.e 13:31.
  
• I have a Private Pilot Licence and i understand that diverting from the airway L980(the airway used by the flight) was not a possible option because of financial concerns. This NOTAM directs airliners that upto FL320, ATS were closed. So the pilots filed a FL350 Plan, but they were directed by Ukraininian ATC to fly at FL330. Knowing that 1000 ft of separation was not effective for a commerical airliner(Chakri Dadri, 747). Why did this happen?
  

  A1492/14 - TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA INSTALLED WITHIN FIR DNIPROPETROVSK
  BOUNDED BY COORDINATES :
  495355N 0380155E 485213N 0372209E 480122N 0370253E
  471352N 0365856E 465018N 0374325E 465900N 0382000E
  470642N 0381324E THEN ALONG STATE BOUNDARY
  UNTIL POINT 495355N 0380155E.
  RESTRICTION NOT APPLIED FOR FLIGHTS OF STATE ACFT OF UKRAINE. FL260 - FL320, 14 JUL 18:00 2014 UNTIL 14 AUG 23:59 2014 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 14 JUL 15:48 2014

• If the last transponder position on the Map is true, this is 34.75 nm
  away from the nearest rebel position at Gorlovka or Lisitchansk. Ukrainian Army has a Buk site near Sloviansk, about 10 miles away, but the rebels are far away.
  
• The 777 had a near spotless record for 17 years. And then three incidents in the space of a year(Asiana Airlines).

It's obvious to me that a 'game' is being played by the world's leaders, and the common folk have no idea what the rules are, or how to even play. A political hole which the common folk cannot even fathom the depth of.

[phamilyman]

Almost all airlines the world over, buy aircraft in sets. Hence, if MAS bought 15 aircraft, the odds of two aircraft having only one letter different is 100%

Here's an example:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/A...ctive-b777.htm

Originally Posted by searchingheaven

The 2 incidents(MH370 and MH17) are not disconnected. The same aircrafts, with the registration being different by only one letter. 9M-MRO(MH-370) and 9M-MRD(MH-17). Doesn't it say something? The odds of this being a co-incidence are a million to one.

EDIT: regarding Ukranian ATC asking MH17 to fly 2000 ft below? It doesn't matter one bit. Buk can engage right upto 14km, or 42000 ft or so. The aircraft could've been at FL390 and result would've been exactly the same.