[frewper]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

Good to see people still believe in the agencies despite what they have been Upto politically.

The rumour is that these raids are due to election funding issues.

Yes, I do still hope and believe that if anything is to change, agencies will be involved. Things have changed a lot and if we are to look at a granular level, in the last decade, the progress that has been achieved cannot be overlooked.

But I do understand what you say. But we should also hope that eventually in time things will change.

No one got involved when activists and education experts criticized the Byjus model for trapping poor parents into paying huge EMis on not-so-useful tuition classes for kids.

You mean all the education experts on youtube? It all depends on how one looks at it. When things are new and an industry is being created, if limitations are put on any industry, it can be viewed as red tape.

Moreover when a new trend of doing certain things emerge, existing experts (via YouTube or otherwise) in the industry will claim it is wrong and will not work, and try to stop it. Maybe Kodak can be an example of the photography industry, who said digital photographs will never work. If Kodak had it their way they would have banned it outright.

Expecting anyone to take proactive steps on day 1, can only be an opinion on nth day, which can be years later. So why dint these youtube experts not blow the whistle in 2011 itself when it was started? or in 2015 when the the company came to limelight? Why the attention only after 2020. Is it because they made a lot of money? lost a lot of money ? or the growth was so much that experts on YouTube thought they could gain from the limelight.

Unfortunately if you look at the laws, any agency do not come in without reasonable doubt. But I do believe that they were advised not to sell to lower income families after their practices came to lime light, after one of the agencies got involved.

Just to be clear, I am not involved with Byjus nor do I support their business tactics in any way.

But, what Byjus did was nothing but what any company would have done to survive. Once money flows in, via inflated valuations, you are required to do well outside of ground reality. And in such scenarios, you will sell a fridge to an Eskimo. Because you think its right, in the name of investors, job security and other crap.

If Byjus had not raised money, morality could have superseded over making more money. But they could have lost the race as well.

As far as FEMA violations go, all we can do is rely on the agencies to do their job well. Or do we have an alternative?

[ike]

Byju's is a perfect example of lax regulations. Financial statements were not forthcoming, customers were(at least a lot of them if not most) unhappy with the product and the work culture is apparently toxic. The board comprises of the founders and investors only and they do not have independent directors.

It was only a matter of time before the valuations blew up.

[sea_eagle]

I have worked and still work with founders who raise capital. I can vouch for one fact - Most of them are not dishonest people.

But, somewhere along the way, they compromise their belief system to 'comply with norms' - be it revenue growth, profitability, valuations; and indulge in questionable corporate governance practices. These could range anywhere from;

- related party transactions
- over-stating revenues
- off-balance sheet items liabilities
- under-stating expenses
- complex accounting of derivative transactions
- fudged metrics
- payouts which are non-propriety in nature

It all starts with small & often perceived to be 'harmless' and well within the norms. But in the course of many years, these 'small' actions snowballs into one gigantic fraud which blows the lid-off the mess. All hell then breaks loose.

It's wrong to paint all founders with the same brush., There are genuinely good founders who care for investors money and show tremendous amount of accountability. But for that to happen, one's inherent values have to be strong.

Coming to Byjus, at the moment, we are all playing a guessing game and no one knows what has factually transpired within the Company. And since PUBLIC money is not involved, in the strict sense, no one has the jurisdiction to question or investigate the Company. Unlike Mr Raju of the Satyam fame, Mr Byjus is not giving up yet and is seemingly strong enough to fight it out till the end. I just hope he doesn't do a VGS and give-up on life because of the tremendous pressure he & his family could be under.

He (and we) should remember that it's a collective failure of the board (if there is one) and not just of any one individual. May God give him more strength to face the reality and come out clean.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

Unlike Mr Raju of the Satyam fame, Mr Byjus is not giving up yet and is seemingly strong enough to fight it out till the end. I just hope he doesn't do a VGS and give-up on life because of the tremendous pressure he & his family could be under.

He (and we) should remember that it's a collective failure of the board (if there is one) and not just of any one individual. May God give him more strength to face the reality and come out clean.

In isolation, this sounds fine. But then some of us can recall Pradeep Poonia and Aniruddha Malpani. And all our sympathies vanish like a snowball in hell.

[sea_eagle]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In isolation, this sounds fine. But then some of us can recall Pradeep Poonia and Aniruddha Malpani. And all our sympathies vanish like a snowball in hell.

In hindsight, these actions were well within the legal framework and since there is a court ruling on one of it, the actions were not wrong in any sense.

Basic courtesy demands that we don't defame any body and that applies to companies too. One cannot make loose comments about a company. Only the aggrieved parties have the right to talk against a company and that too at an appropriate forum.

If Byjus has indeed engaged in a Ponzi scheme as purported by Mr Punia, there would be multiple consumer court orders against the company but we see none but one.

There's a very popular concept in law - Caveat Emptor meaning buyer beware. This puts the onus on the buyer.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

No one got involved when activists and education experts criticised the Byjus model for trapping poor parents into paying huge EMis on not-so-useful tuition classes for kids.

And the same model is followed by all ed-tech startups. There is one such company on the same floor where I work. Every day I see young barely graduated kids, educating (read emotionally blackmailing) unsuspecting parents on how not taking their tuition is the worst thing a parent can do for their child. These are the same kids who don't have a basic civic sense of even using an elevator but are coaching the next generation.

There is a big difference between unethical business practices without breaking any laws (like emotional blackmail of poor parents to sell JEE coaching to kids who are hardly literate) vs outright financial fraud.

There's a very popular concept in law - Caveat Emptor meaning buyer beware. This puts the onus on the buyer.

This might not be financial fraud but in the long run, this will negatively impact the next generation and our country. There should be some basic checks to ensure unethical business practices are cut short.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

I have worked and still work with founders who raise capital. I can vouch for one fact - Most of them are not dishonest people.

Other examples of questionable behaviour.

R Subramaniam - Subhiksha Supermarkets. Great concept. Then lots of serious financial irregularities. Awarding interiors contracts to family members and all that. He may have beem convicted and served time and all but his personal fortune etc will be intact.

Kishore Biyani- Future Group- ‘Garv se Bolo Hum Kanjoos Hai’ etc. Hailed as India’s Sam Walton. On the cover page of all sorts of magazines and newspapers daily. Superb concept of mass retail and excellent distribution and growth and everything. Till it all went belly up because of serious financial over-extension and terrible cash flow management. They didnt pay into the employee PF accounts and salaries etc were always delayed.
Yet on a personal basis the wealth and stuff is intact.

Ashneer of BharatPe - the kind of blatant financial irregularities are unbelievable. Again personal wealth is perfectly intact. And for Gods sake the fellow is writing books and preaching.

Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos - thats crazy absolutely!

Raju of Satyam - or should we say ASatyam?
No more need be said. Personal fortunes are intact.

Subroto Roy - Sahara - again a clear example of serious financial fraud.

Recently that Deepti Bahal woman in Ghaziabad UP - BikeBot fraud.

The list is endless.

I think this kind of ‘unimaginable money’ and ‘pressure’ fundamentally changes some of these people into committing serious financial crimes. Greed is a basic human vice. Leads to terrible temptation and eventual dishonesty. And this kind of fraudulent behaviour basically feeds off their own personal Greed and feeds On other people’s (investors and capitalists) Greed as well.

One has to have ‘exceptional character’ to remain strong and stay true to one’s core values and tenets. (Assuming of course that one subscribed to those values in the first place.)

And these new world phenomena of ‘Celebrity CEO’s or ‘wannabe’ Celebrity businessmen’ only adds more pressure to the pot. Something’s got to give somewhere sometime.

I wouldn’t waste any empathy or sympathy on the perpetrators of all these financial irregularities.
They ought to all be made to serve their time - hard labour in prison without the option of bail.

In these cases, the ‘Quality of Mercy’ definitely must be ‘Strained’, to paraphrase dear old W Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, to fit these scenarios.

[udzgodfather]

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

Basic courtesy demands that we don't defame any body and that applies to companies too. One cannot make loose comments about a company.

The amount of pressure and undue damage the edtechs have created over poor and uneducated or barely educated parents it is way too harmful for the coming generations, the basic courtesy that generally the companies demand when in hot water, if they have showed the same to the customers in the longer run, they wouldn't have been in the hot water at the first place.

People discussing or bad shaming it in open about there experiences regarding the startups is the whole point of giving reviews. You give good service and experience people will talk, you give bad service and experience people will talk. It is only due to lack of proper communications and putting it out in open the world is flooded with Ponzi schemes.

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

Basic courtesy demands that we don't defame any body and that applies to companies too. One cannot make loose comments about a company.

If I had to give a recent example of this, badmouthing Axis Bank for its debt exposure in GO Air is making loose comments on Axis Bank and it demands basic courtesy because Axis Bank has Zero to negligible exposure in GO Air but can't be said the same about the startups we are talking about.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by udzgodfather

People discussing or bad shaming it in open about there experiences regarding the startups is the whole point of giving reviews.

It is only due to lack of proper communications and putting it out in open the world is flooded with Ponzi schemes.

Well said! These are literally billion dollar companies (according to their own valuation, of course! ) with armies of lawyers and unlimited marketing budgets. And somehow, posting what every newspaper has already reported, on a forum like this is...defamation?!

Never understood when/how mega companies and brands become the victims. They can take care of themselves very well. And in a country where the courts are so backed up with far more serious cases, the only recourse victims of such companies have is online reviews and posts. Let's not harm ourselves, the general public, by trying to silence those as well! (And doing free PR/damage control for a multi-million dollar brand!)

[buzzy_boy]

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

And since PUBLIC money is not involved, in the strict sense, no one has the jurisdiction to question or investigate the Company.

Byjus' is known for using FOMO marketing strategies to sell a learning product to unsuspecting parents - who then take out EMIs to buy these.

Contacts of parents were obtained through seemingly questionable practises, and sales-folks were placed under immense pressure to meet monthly targets. Naturally, they allegedly made false promises to the families of students to sell the product. By many accounts the company made little-to-no effort to audit and curb these practises.

So, we the people have the right to question the practices of the company.

[V.Narayan]

My cook's son is studying to try his luck for entrance exams of engineering colleges. Bright hard working kid in the 11th standard. She got almost sold on this Byju's nonsense. Not sure what course. As I support this child she had the good sense to check with me for a loan and I've course advised her to shoo away the Byju's chap and that the tuition classes the boy is in are good enough. This is an example of the segment they are preying on - mother is a cook, father is a Swiggy rider; semi educated lower middle class; eager for their children to do better; and simply not wired up enough, understandably so, to know how to teach/coach the child. Very sad. No loyalty to the customer. This is rank exploitation in a new form.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Very sad. No loyalty to the customer. This is rank exploitation in a new form.

A profession in teaching and medicine were considered as noble - not anymore. Start ups in the name of education and healthcare probably do not even understand the meaning of the word noble. Preying on gullible in the name of business is the lowest level these people can stoop down to. With no scruples whatsoever, I imagine these "founders" see only money and do not care an iota about the people whom they exploit.

An engineering graduate teaches Maths and Science to the kids where our maid resides without any monetary consideration. All he wants to see is the upliftment of the children in the lowest strata of society. God bless him. Unfortunately, names of these samaritans are not seen on the players' jerseys.

[Samurai]

The media keeps celebrating the wrong type of companies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTUQxKyvsBk

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by sea_eagle

There's a very popular concept in law - Caveat Emptor meaning buyer beware. This puts the onus on the buyer.

By any chance, are you a lawyer? Caveat emptor does not apply if the seller has wilfully misrepresented the quality of the goods or service to the buyer. In the case of Byju's - from the rigged tests to the lies about refunds - it's pretty clear that it won't apply. If this were the US, there would be a billion-dollar class-action lawsuit.

Originally Posted by Samurai

The media keeps celebrating the wrong type of companies...

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=qTUQxKyvsBk

Blaming the media is simply shifting the blame to the lowest common denominator. Irresponsible investors, unethical founders, byzantine regulations, all of these have a far larger role to play. The media exists, in its present form, to celebrate whatever cause du jour captures the masses' fancy.

[Samurai]

https://youtu.be/Kfdj3AfDD74