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Old 23rd December 2018, 12:09   #2776
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
No efforts were made to make them digitally aware, either.
The concept of exclusion is, by deliberate design, a capitalist construct. But then, we are all part of the system and therefore I do agree with your premise. That said, the bringing them into the formal banking channels thing had happened much before demonetisation - through the Jan Dhan accounts. The government may retrospectively claim that both the measures were interconnected and that the former was the first step towards the latter; but can we accept that?

On the topic of formal banking, can we find even one instance of a freshly inducted customer saying that he has indeed benefited and is happy that note ban happened?

Whoever saw a ray of hope in demonetisation was hoping that this shock would bring out black money (some of which would eventually be distributed to the needy), punish the black sheep and reward the honest. Did that happen?

We keep harping on the unorganized sector and the ills of parallel economy. What gets forgotten is that parallel economy isn't fully or necessarily bad and that many of us are part of the same. I am not referring to the hawala channels but to the ubiquitous milkmen, vegetable sellers, roadside vendors, cobblers-shoeshines, potters and the likes. They were not thieving, were they?

I can't cook up or take shelter in statistics to prove that demonetisation was also dehumanisation. This, I am saying not because time has proved the note ban has been ineffective. Even if it was a HUGE success, I would still have some bones to pick with the way the whole circus was put up.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 17:37   #2777
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Please see the rises each year. Nothing outstanding after Demo. Infact we have seen higher jumps in some of the earlier years.
Thank you for sharing the data. It is my hope that with the number of filers going up eventually so will collections.
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Data manipulation, lol - I would run out of the pictures limit per post. Heres a gem though -
Is this a official advertisement of GoI or one of the things that float on Facebook and Whats App
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Old 23rd December 2018, 17:47   #2778
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Thank you for sharing the data. It is my hope that with the number of filers going up eventually so will collections.
Demonetization plus the GST have shored up revenues for the government as many people have now become part of the formal economy.

Of course one could still conduct business in cash, avoiding to pay taxes for both. However the proportion of such individuals or deals must be lesser.

I for one don't mind having all my deals in the banking system, and would strongly recommend everyone else to open a bank account and deal through it.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 18:39   #2779
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Digitisation and formalisation of the economy as a justification for demonetisation is IMO, flawed and clutching at straws where there are none.
No one talks about how the Indian govt is draconian with its distrust of its own citizens and flawed bureaucracy. This govt was elected with the premise of ‘less government and more governance’. They have done exactly the opposite.
Demo is a classic example of the government meddling into the personal matters of citizens. They should make the banking accessible to everyone, simplify buereocracy, incentivise digital payments and then let the people choose whatever they prefer, if someone still prefers cash, it’s their right, it’s a free country after all. But how can someone be forced to do something and then other people justifying its good for them is absolute nonsense.
After paying my taxes, whatever I do with my money is my business. Even their so called GST, the once in a lifetime reform, cannot after 1.5 years, make for the shortfall in the tax revenue. A little bit of common sense always helps.
Indian people are diehard democrats, they respond to incentives not force. Simplify systems, dismantle Babudom, cut taxes and everyone will pay their dues if they feel it’s fair. No one is going to pay those high taxes we have when all we get is a lemon in return.

Last edited by garychopper : 23rd December 2018 at 18:43. Reason: Typos
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Old 23rd December 2018, 20:37   #2780
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Even if it was a HUGE success, I would still have some bones to pick with the way the whole circus was put up.
Sounds like prejudice to me.

Funny thing about demonetization, hard to complain about it from a first person point of view, without incriminating oneself. Shoot from the shoulders of the "downtrodden". It's not like they will be offering a counter narrative editorial, being downtrodden and all.

But why bother? They are the ones that do the voting and they might react according to their reality. Doubt statistics matter to them.

Cheers
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Old 23rd December 2018, 20:50   #2781
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Funny thing about demonetization, hard to complain about it from a first person point of view, without incriminating oneself.
Everything legal. Everything declared, taxed, banked. Still had to live though the same inconvenience. I, and many others in the same situation, can certainly complain without incriminating ourselves.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 20:53   #2782
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Sounds like prejudice to me.
Is it?

Could be.

I see one face of truth and you, the other.
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Funny thing about demonetization, hard to complain about it from a first person point of view, without incriminating oneself. Shoot from the shoulders of the "downtrodden". It's not like they will be offering a counter narrative editorial, being downtrodden and all.
No sir. I have personally been inconvenienced a lot too, like most normal citizens. Weren't you, really?

Few stories are told, many aren't. Someone else will perhaps tell mine; and yours.
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But why bother? They are the ones that do the voting and they might react according to their reality. Doubt statistics matter to them.
I vote too. As I did four and a half years ago and will again, in the next couple of months. But unlike some, I do think before inking (that's how I still vote).
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Old 23rd December 2018, 21:37   #2783
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Still had to live though the same inconvenience.
A lot like TSA lines post 9/11. One could complain, but the"greater good" has priority.

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No sir. I have personally been inconvenienced a lot too, like most normal citizens. Weren't you, really?
.
Always thought prejudice was bad, but that could just be a little naive of me.

Yes, some adjustments had to be made, but I doubt I could make a case against the greater good. Like I'm sure most people.
If your inconvenience is greater than whatever good achieved, it will sound like a personal problem.

So I see a lot of "downtrodden" crutches being used.

Cheers
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Old 23rd December 2018, 21:53   #2784
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

So one's either a crook or selfishly opposing the greater good, if questioning the policy? There's no rational reason to critique it otherwise, is that the conclusion to be drawn from this premise?

Classic debating tactic, argumentum ad hominem.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 23rd December 2018 at 22:00. Reason: Replaced criticize with critique
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Old 23rd December 2018, 22:01   #2785
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Yes, some adjustments had to be made, but I doubt I could make a case against the greater good
Now that you agree (without incriminating yourself) that some adjustments had to be made, could you please list the greater good brought about by demonetisation alone?
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If your inconvenience is greater than whatever good achieved, it will sound like a personal problem
The nation is a sum of its citizens, the problems of the latter are of the former too.
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So I see a lot of "downtrodden" crutches being used
But it is obvious that both of us look at things differently and we may just agree to disagree on opinions. As far as facts are concerned, some are natural, a few cooked up. We can pick up what suits us and walk steadily; or manufacture some crutches to lean on.

Sadly, in the absence of credible evidence, you and I can only play rhetorical games. History will be a better judge of this whole saga. We are too close and connected to the event to be able to arrive at a dispassionate conclusion. So, let me keep telling stories of loss: you can keep questioning them.
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Old 23rd December 2018, 22:47   #2786
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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A lot like TSA lines post 9/11. One could complain, but the"greater good" has priority.

Cheers
Greater good is perfectly fine, that's why most Indians accepted the pain. What is fairly established is that it proved otherwise. It was at best one of the biggest blunders in a modern economy and at worst a ploy designed for other political parties so that they get rid of their ill begotten money.
But every aforementioned reason for undergoing DeMo has proven a failure - be it Income tax, terrorism, property prices. The so-called people hoarding back money are no where to be found!
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Old 24th December 2018, 08:29   #2787
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So, let me keep telling stories of loss: you can keep questioning them.
I don't question the stories since they are neither mine nor yours, but of the poor, which I have no way of verifying. Just wondered about the motivation, which you have hinted as being prejudice, so no wonder left.

As an ordinary citizen, my life was not disrupted enough for me to question the returns of the greater good. It's not like this is the only policy that Governments have made, and being an ordinary person, have no choice but to take the Government's word for it.

I did not have expectations nor do I know or care how the black money hoarders handle their businesses or if they were caught/taxed. Was my life affected drastically? No! Should I be satisfied only if all the promises were kept? When was the last time any Government fulfilled that? Or are expectations different now?

Cheers

Last edited by gthang : 24th December 2018 at 08:30. Reason: Typo
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Old 24th December 2018, 08:30   #2788
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In the days after demonetisation, people struggled to make ends meet; not because they lacked the resources but because the resources they had had been declared illegal by the Government.

I can only look back and wonder whether the lines hold water today.
While in a position of governance, one could give them some benefit of doubt as they try different solutions to address issues at various levels. What I find rather disquieting is the lack of remorse or admission of guilt on a process that seems to have caused more pain (& death) than benefit.

Any death caused by negligence, in my opinion, should be prosecuted - dangerous driving, bad road works & maintenance, hoardings by the road, poor policies and their implementation,...they all amount to criminal negligence.
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Old 24th December 2018, 11:33   #2789
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Any death caused by negligence, in my opinion, should be prosecuted - ....poor policies and their implementation,...they all amount to criminal negligence.
This is a slippery slope which leads to dictatorship. How do you define "poor policies and their implementation"? In my opinion, the socialist/communist policies followed by successive governments led to poverty, malnourishment, poor health-care, lack of growth and development eventually leading to misery and preventable deaths over the decades. Your opinion could be different.

Every time a government changes, should you go and prosecute the previous one?
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Old 24th December 2018, 12:12   #2790
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Default Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Every time a government changes, should you go and prosecute the previous one?

Prosecution or not, there is not enough to dis-incentivize such wrong doers. It should also be of no surprise that, this holds true irrespective of who is at the helm of affairs. Basically lack of 'skin in the game' as Taleb would say. By the time the law catches up, at least couple of generations would have passed.

Speaking of dictatorship, there are enough signs already with the current leadership unwilling to listen to advices from anybody.

Last edited by SilentEngine : 24th December 2018 at 12:13.
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