[greyhound82]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If that is your purpose, then programming is not the


This is what you need with your background.

+1 . During my late 30's, the transition from a computer vision architect (x86, ARM) to the Engineering Head of a funded startup which works on hybrid ecosystem ( edge + cloud) and machine learning consists of understanding all the below stacks

1. Kubernetes
2. Message Brokers for streaming data: Kafka/RabbitMQ
3. Kubeflow
4. ELK
5. AWS IoT Greengrass / Nvidia fleet

I hardly program these days for deployments rather understanding the cloud design patterns, learning about microservices and selecting which is most suited for our business problem. The experience as developer do help us in designing the best architecture. I do simulations in python for ML but its hardly programming in conventional sense rather its just scripting

[Raghu M]

I think more than what you need to do at 40, you need to start doing something from 25. No industry is permanent. There could be a change and boom!, everything could change. The travel industry was a booming one, so was catering and vendor business until Covid struck. You need to start investing right from the time you take a job. Upgrading skills is a never ending process. The result could be anything.

What I have observed is - people who touch 35+ and are in management roles, stop doing direct work. They only deliver mails and share status reports. Ask them if they can code or program, most of them will sigh or sulk and say they don't need to do it anymore. You never know when you have to get your hands dirty. Always keep yourself up to date on what's happening on the ground. Worst thing, you might be forced to do it. Always be ready. Lean management is a very bad thing for people who are in the management spots. One review across hierarchy could send many top spots out of the window overnight.

Keep yourself relevant. Your role should have a value to it. The clients should rely on you for quite a few things and not just trying to take care of some escalation or passing on a feedback.

The most important thing is, never have EMIs more than 30% of your salary. It hurts. When the unimaginable happens, you will have no clue of how you got knocked off but you will find yourself with a burden you can't carry. Investments are key, if you can manage without a salary for at least 2 to 4 years, you have done reasonably well. Buy properties (land etc. and not CAR!), the value appreciation over the years is huge and when the rainy day really strikes, you can have a peaceful exit/retirement.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by greyhound82

I hardly program these days for deployments rather understanding the cloud design patterns, learning about microservices and selecting which is most suited for our business problem. The experience as developer do help us in designing the best architecture.

I still do lot of C++ programming... Youngest engineer in my team is less than half my age. I enjoy C++ programming a lot. Every time I use some other language, I end up coming back to C++. That is one of the reason why I keep away from working for large companies, because they will take that away from me.

[Navinprakash]

I am an IT Professional in late 30s. My point is "Prepare for the worst", but make best efforts in your job, be relevant, upskill, be an valuable asset to the company, grown in your career and "Hope for the best". This advise is from my personal experience (most of them done by me and some I wish I should have done)

1. First accept the fact that IT job is not permanent. As a matter of fact, any job is not permanent. Even if the company has no issues in keeping our job, our situation might force us to leave the job in 40s (Health issues, aging parents etc.)

2. As soon as you join the company, build a strong backup in gold that can be liquidated easily, pledged to get money for rotation. (Or any other asset class that be pledged / liquidated).
If you start at age 25 and buy an average 6 sovereign/year for 15 years, you will have 90 sovereign at the age of 40. That can easily get you 25L+ by pledging the gold. This will be good enough to live for year or 2 or use as an initial investment for a business

3. Invest in something that brings passive income. Instead of buying an apartment, buy a individual house that has either multiple units or you can build additional units for rental income.

4. Use the backup in point 2 for rotation of money to buy land (agriculture / residential plot) in your late 20s or early 30s. Avail additional loans as necessary, but payoff all the loans before you reach 40. By the time you move out of your job, in your 40s, the land would have appreciated enough. you can build a house, start a business in that land or sell that land and use the money for investing in a business.

5. While you are still in 30s, invest in franchise or start a business based on your risk tolerance. By the time you reach 40s, you will have a broad knowledge of what works for you. In your 40s, if you plan to move out of your job, it will be much easier.

6. Keep your expenses low. Don't get into the "Lifestyle creep". At the age of 40 try to be EMI free. If not, at least make sure you only have EMIs for the assets that are providing passive income like your investment properties or Farms that gives returns.

This is easier said than done. But if you can start this in your 20s, you will never have fear about the job loss in 40s as your IT job is not the only source of income.

[B103]

A 3 BHK in a good location from a reasonably reputed builder in IT city of Bangalore will cost north of 1 Cr easily. If you are investing in a land or apartment in suburbs which has a high chance of developing later, it is a different case.

Again, most people also buy a 25+ lac car. Sadly, both of these are good only to depreciate the principal amount plonked into it. On top of the money paid to buy the house, its property tax is yet another recurring outgo. The same house will be available to rent @ 30K per month which makes it financially prudent to rent than buying outright. Similarly, a car is a well know depreciator of capital as most people are already aware. Even if both husband and wife are working, these expenditures will subsume the salaries received across many years. Finally, when they are about to sell the apartment years later the returns will be below or at par of the amount they would have received if the money was parked in a bank FD.

Start for retirement planning early. Invest wisely considering the long term returns. Compound interest is the 8th wonder in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jsn2xHPKUA

Most people never think of retirement until it is late. This will build up pressure at a later stage in life. Money going into EPF alone would not be sufficient to retire at today's inflation. Next most important thing is to top up the term insurance which provided by the employer. This will protect the survivors in case an untoward incident like demise of the breadwinner.

For a conservative person, try to save 5 or 10 lacs every year and invest the money in Bharat bonds or Post office schemes or buy annuity plans from LIC. Years later, these investments will help you to be financially independent and not be at the mercy of an employer. You will have the freedom and conviction to say 'No' and need not be coerced into take everything that comes your way. Else, such work environments will only lead to burnouts, strokes, heart attacks and untimely premature deaths !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCqVXm_rblM

If an untoward incident occurs, companies are obliged only to distribute whatever term insurance the deceased was entitled to. Most of them do not pay out anything more. Ultimately, it is the victim's family who suffers.

Other countries who collect taxes at similar rates gives back to the employee or his/her families if the worker is incapacitated physically or mentally or deceased. Our Govt is also interested only in the income tax you pay and nothing more. After paying so much of income tax, if somebody misses to add the interest received from a small FD deposit, which receives an FD interest rate way below inflation, which is used by same bank to loan out to a customer and make more money out of it - the IT dept. will remind you off the "High value transaction" in the "Faceless" campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHGw4qSlXwk

[born_free]

I also touched 40 and had interesting findings in my job search recently.

My current company had presence in India for two decades with headquarters in foreign location. It's a software company. I had stayed here for more than a decade now and i could see many folks who are in 40s already.

Most employees in this age range are not looking for job change and most likely to retire here.

Very few openings for people in this age range, an outgoing senior person is replaced by a much junior employee.

I was looking for a job change internally and appeared for many internal interviews.
I was overqualified for few roles even though technically i was fit for role.

For leadership positions i was under qualified as i lacked management experience.

So I started looking outside of my company for multiple types of roles , Domain Expert, Technical Architect and Middle Management.

I carry a good brand name so landing interviews were easy and my conversion rate was good . Was able to reach final rounds in 5 out of 6 job interviews.


I also have feeling that whenever I was interviewed by a foreign counterpart, they could see more value I could bring, compared to those based out of India.

Finally got two good opportunities to choose from and would be moving to leadership role with good salary hike.

The compensation offered is more than what I asked for, and the role is also a step above than my current one.

In the end it was a long job search spanning more than a year, and was surprised that outsiders saw more value in me than my own company.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by born_free

I had stayed here for more than a decade now and i could see many folks who are in 40s already.

Having made a shift from a similar position a year ago, I can say there are things you will miss, but there are good things about shifting too.

I'm in my 40s, made the decision to shift from a company I had spent more than 10 years with. The main motivation was to not go back to a truly awful commute post-covid. But, even apart from that, what I can say after one year is that I wish I had done this at least 4-5 years before!

The amount I've learned working with a smaller company has been incredible. I've literally learned more and executed more in one month than I had in several months at my previous much larger company, that too with a fraction of the team we had there! I work mostly with much younger people and I must admit that gets a bit tiresome at times- sometimes I think I'm babysitting But they keep me on my toes and I can honestly say I learn more from them than they do from me. Though I do miss the more mature colleagues I had previously, purely from a personal-connect conversation point of view. I call those former colleagues once in a while when interacting with the kids becomes overwhelming (and that's purely a factor of my age, not theirs).

Also must admit, miss the predictability of work that the larger firm provided. Get a lot more done here, but it's not well-organized. These guys are ok working odd-hours and changing everything at short notice. But still, the tradeoff has been worth it. I've enhanced my skills and resume more in a year here than I did in the last 4 years at my old, larger company.

[Jaguar]

Came across a nice article about the age-bias in the Indian IT context.


Source: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/execu...member_desktop

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Came across a nice article about the age-bias in the Indian IT context.

Source: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/execu...member_desktop

In my experience people tend to be comfortable recruiting those of a similar or younger age to themselves. So a 47-year old recruiter understands instinctively that a 47-year old or a 48-year old is not necessarily a worn out old shoe and can judge if the candidate is indeed beyond his sell by date, which some are. But to a 25-year old recruiter someone in his/her 40s seems positively ancient. IT companies in India because they hire by the quintal with, in my opinion, grossly inadequate oversight or training {in the HR teams} by the senior management are manned by recruiters in their 20s at best early 30s. A person with 4 to 8 years of work experience simply does not have the life experience to understand what a skilled technical 47-year old or God forbid 55-year old can bring to the table. You have to have walked the path yourself to know the intangibles not captured in a resume that an older standalone technical contributor can bring to the table.

In my first career we used to liberally hire aircraft engineers from Indian Airlines after they retired at 58, later 60. The real thing we screened them for was PSU attitude, that's all. Technically many of them were simply outstanding. And we would hire pilots & engineers from the Armed Forces typically when they took early retirement in their 40s. But their selection process I always gave to my older senior leaders and not to the normal HR team. As otherwise the value or lack thereof of the unwritten intangible was impossible to assess. There is a measurable difference in energy levels between say the regular 60-year old versus a 45-year old. But much much much less so between a motivated mature less confused 45-year old and a 30-year old. In fact the former is often more effective. They work with less emotions and mental confusion. Usually that 45-year old who knows he/she has a good deal going and doesn't throw tantrums or keep circulating his/her CV.

But IT recruitment departments lose out on this because their focus and deliverables are on "how many quintals did they procure this month" and not on ensuring quality resources are picked. My experience building and running a business across 4 countries is that women across cultures are more stable. Period. Like for like, ability for ability they are more stable. They value a safe environment and flexibility on family rearing matters more than an extra 20% wage hike that Joe's shop next door is trying to lure people with.

Another big miss is that they don't hire enough women under the myth that she'll get married and change locations or jobs. And what do young, confused men do, may I ask ??!!

Just my two pennies after having hired, over the years, as individual contributors maybe 200+ above 40 years of age.

[condor]

Narayan sir, so many insights in your post !

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In my experience people tend to be comfortable recruiting those of a similar or younger age to themselves.

Agree to a large extent, but would also depend on the interviewer too.

But their selection process I always gave to my older senior leaders and not to the normal HR team. As otherwise the value or lack thereof of the unwritten intangible was impossible to assess.

Much like interviews for leadership/CxO positions ?

Another big miss is that they don't hire enough women under the myth that she'll get married and change locations or jobs. And what do young, confused men do, may I ask ??

[subraiyr]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A person with 4 to 8 years of work experience simply does not have the life experience to understand what a skilled technical 47-year old or God forbid 55-year old can bring to the table. You have to have walked the path yourself to know the intangibles not captured in a resume that an older standalone technical contributor can bring to the table.

There is so much an older person can provide for an organization that the younger individual cannot. While IT firms believe that the younger you are, the easier it is for you to manage change (read learn new skills quickly), they forget the fact that an older individual understands the change process and knows how to navigate. She/he is not taken aback at the alacrity of any situation and can quickly overcome obstacles. Plus the fact that age teaches management rather than an MBA

My experience building and running a business across 4 countries is that women across cultures are more stable. Period. Like for like, ability for ability they are more stable. They value a safe environment and flexibility on family rearing matters more than an extra 20% wage hike that Joe's shop next door is trying to lure people with.

I completely agree with this. Working with an organization, that is now trying to move the needle to 50% diversity, it is very interesting to note the work ethics of women. Working from home, they are very clear on letting you know their availability during the day, and by God, they stick by it. Not like some of the male folks who manage to slip in a couple of hours here and there for managing their personal tasks. I have had women go on a maternity break for 6 months and come back and pick up from where they left off and surprise, surprise has managed to upskill themselves during the break

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In my experience people tend to be comfortable recruiting those of a similar or younger age to themselves. So a 47-year old recruiter understands instinctively that a 47-year old or a 48-year old is not necessarily a worn out old shoe and can judge if the candidate is indeed beyond his sell by date, which some are. But to a 25-year old recruiter someone in his/her 40s seems positively ancient.


…


Another big miss is that they don't hire enough women under the myth that she'll get married and change locations or jobs. And what do young, confused men do, may I ask ??!!

Brilliant advise. Earlier in my career, I was am personally guilty of bias against older folks doing a more junior job (in US). Thankfully I didn’t have hiring responsibilities as I was way too junior. Now I am more accepting and more respectful of everyone regardless junior or senior in general. There is big need to mentor / coach first time managers of these biases.

Also a big +1 to hiring women and giving them equal chances to succeed as men. During my first few years at my job, I had the privilege of being mentored and coached by exceptional women, who were very effective at their job as well as very down to earth and empathetic. Even in my current role, I find that women are equally as effective as men and slightly better at being creative and coming up with out of the box solutions. I feel private MNC corporate India is at par if not well ahead of our American and European counterparts on this scale. Haven’t worked with enough home grown companies to comment.

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Another big miss is that they don't hire enough women under the myth that she'll get married and change locations or jobs. And what do young, confused men do, may I ask ??!!

I have seen people think about the above in service companies due to billing.

People also think about maternity leave. I think there should be at least two 6 months forced leave to Men to get over this

Its about societal bias and not having many Woman in workforce. Still long way to go.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

But IT recruitment departments lose out on this because their focus and deliverables are on "how many quintals did they procure this month" and not on ensuring quality resources are picked.

Most HR folks get used to applying demographic filters. It is the lazy way out.

Are freshers better at learning? YES
Do oldies get worse at learning? YES

However, one doesn't hire oldies in quintals. Therefore, one shouldn't apply demographic filter while dealing with oldies. Always go case by case. It is not easy, I have personally burnt my fingers in the last couple of years while trying to hire oldies. One person I did hire, couldn't pick up the new technology at all. After giving nearly a year, I had to let go. Many others we interviewed didn't want to do any hands-on work, instead wanted to supervise people who actually do the work. This is an India specific problem I think. Most in their 40s/50s look askance when asked whether they can be hands-on. They want managerial work to suit their age. In IT, if you are not hands-on, you will have very little to differentiate yourself from younger managers.

If one wants extended career in IT, stay technical. There is real dearth of highly experienced technical guys in the industry, which is mostly manned by young people. But there are two problems we have to overcome as an industry:
1) HR doesn't think of older people while hiring for technical positions. (stop applying age filter)
2) Most IT people are forced into management roles after 35 even if they love being hands-on. (let people stay technical if they want)

No one forced me to stop being hands-on, hence I am still very hands-on at 54. I overcame the second problem. But I will still face the first problem, if I ever need to apply for a job.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is an India specific problem I think.

+1 to this.

Another India specific problem (IMO) is the implicit assumption that if an (aged) individual is not at the designation level that someone at his age would be, then she/he is not a good performer and is average at most. On the other hand, we seem to accept aged individuals at overseas in operational/technical (& non-managerial) roles quite easily. I had a BA colleague in the US who was in her early 50s and there were no constraints observed in her being a part of a BA pool where the average age was 25-odd (mostly Indian resources). If I try to imagine that scenario happening in India - I would assume very low chances.