[binand]

Originally Posted by aspire

Need to settle at a peaceful, developed place, was thinking of what options do I have...

Originally Posted by aspire

I have an apartment in Bangalore and a landed property in Kerala.

I'm not sure why you so quickly rule out Kerala when it seems to tick all the boxes you have set for yourself. It certainly is developed and peaceful, and for the retiree the most important aspect - healthcare - is second to none in India at the moment. Add to these the presence of political and executive layer at the grassroots that is functional, relatively less corruption, strong sense of community and many avenues of self-actualisation makes it quite the perfect place for post-retirement life.

[redcruiser]

I have few questions for Tribe members as I try to chalk out the plan for retirement.

1. How much would a health insurance cost now for couple around 60 years old?

2. Would it be prudent to take health insurance at 60 or just continue the company provided health insurance after retirement. Yes, MediAssist who is the 3rd party at our company says "you can continue the insurance even after leaving the company by paying myself"

3. Well, if you calculate 1 OPD consultation for a super specialist which costs 600 bucks at current price. Assuming 8% inflation, after 20 years it would be 27k, for 4% it is 18K. This looks insane but I think this is what inflation is going to do. Any thoughts on this ?
I guess once you are above 60 you should estimate minimum 8 visits to the doc No limit for max visits though.
3.a : In case point 2 doesn't work out (i.e medical insurance) how much would 1 night stay at a corporate hospital cost 20 years down the line.

4. Health Check up for Senior Citizens Cost around 8k at current price. Considering 8% for 20 years balloons the bill to 2.38L. So minimum you should estimate 4 times. Considering health checkup every 6 months for husband and wife.

5. What should be the inflation percent one should account for the below items
1) Travelling by Air ? 10k now for to and fro in India. How much would it be 20 yr down?
2) Fuel Prices? . Not sure How Ev will shape up.. Let's just club electricity cost and fuel costs for owning a vehicle in one bucket.
3) 1 night hotel stay (ln a standard hotel that costs 15k)

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by redcruiser

I have few questions for Tribe members as I try to chalk out the plan for retirement.

1. How much would a health insurance cost now for couple around 60 years old?

2. Would it be prudent to take health insurance at 60 or just continue the company provided health insurance after retirement. Yes, MediAssist who is the 3rd party at our company says "you can continue the insurance even after leaving the company by paying myself"

3. Well, if you calculate 1 OPD consultation for a super specialist which costs 600 bucks at current price. Assuming 8% inflation, after 20 years it would be 27k, for 4% it is 18K. This looks insane but I think this is what inflation is going to do. Any thoughts on this ?
I guess once you are above 60 you should estimate minimum 8 visits to the doc No limit for max visits though.
3.a : In case point 2 doesn't work out (i.e medical insurance) how much would 1 night stay at a corporate hospital cost 20 years down the line.

4. Health Check up for Senior Citizens Cost around 8k at current price. Considering 8% for 20 years balloons the bill to 2.38L. So minimum you should estimate 4 times. Considering health checkup every 6 months for husband and wife.

5. What should be the inflation percent one should account for the below items
1) Travelling by Air ? 10k now for to and fro in India. How much would it be 20 yr down?
2) Fuel Prices? . Not sure How Ev will shape up.. Let's just club electricity cost and fuel costs for owning a vehicle in one bucket.
3) 1 night hotel stay (ln a standard hotel that costs 15k)

Can't answer all of your queries or share my opinion on all but here is some information for you:

1) I pay about 55K including taxes for a cover of only 3L for my parents who are senior citizens. The policy was available via one of my previous employers, was paid by myself even then and I was allowed to continue with it after leaving the firm.

Premium is as of today, earlier it was lesser. It was at 21K many moons back.

2) Better to take now and continue rather than buy later when it may not be available.

3) Either healthcare in Bangalore is cheaper or your numbers are wrong. A super specialist here in Mumbai in any reputed hospital these days charges anything from 4K to 6K for 1 consultation. Not to forget administrative charges, some tests and travel to hospital of choice.

No comments on inflation since it is no in anyone's' control but your visits will either be Zero if you are healthy or many (like you said) if you develop some condition. Speaking from personal experiences with family members.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by redcruiser

Well, if you calculate 1 OPD consultation for a super specialist which costs 600 bucks at current price. Assuming 8% inflation, after 20 years it would be 27k, for 4% it is 18K. This looks insane but I think this is what inflation is going to do. Any thoughts on this ?
Health Check up for Senior Citizens Cost around 8k at current price. Considering 8% for 20 years balloons the bill to 2.38L. So minimum you should estimate 4 times. Considering health checkup every 6 months for husband and wife.
1 night hotel stay (ln a standard hotel that costs 15k)

I think your calculations are wrong. The expense for seeing a specialist or health checkup would grow by 4x in 20 years at 8% inflation. Then the figures would grow from 600 to 2400 (not 27k) and from 8k to 32k (not 2.38 lakhs).
Coming to the hotel, 15k today for a “standard hotel” is way too high. A decent 3 star hotel is around 2 to 3k and even 5 stars can often be availed for 5 to 6k. So unless the Taj and Leela are what you mean by a “standard hotel”, that price is too high. Hotel prices are not likely to increase a lot. If you look back 20 years, the hotels cost almost the same at mid to high end.

[deepak_misra]

Originally Posted by redcruiser

I have few questions for Tribe members as I try to chalk out the plan for retirement.

1. How much would a health insurance cost now for couple around 60 years old?

2. Would it be prudent to take health insurance at 60 or just continue the company provided health insurance after retirement. Yes, MediAssist who is the 3rd party at our company says "you can continue the insurance even after leaving the company by paying myself"

There are 2 many questions. Let me answer 1).
I would suggest trying to take a base policy + super topup. For senior citizens with existing issues, it might be very difficult but next to impossible with advancing age. Ditto for supertop. (As a data point, my family super topup got rejected by 2 companies)
It would be okay to continue with existing corporate policy, but you are at the mercy of your corporate and the insurance company. Such policies keep changing all the time, so it might be prudent to have own cover. Premiums see real high but then this is all about risk management. Medical care has become a loot.
If you do take a policy, ensure that all details and medical issues are provided at the time of application. Dont miss out anything. From anecdotal evidence I gather that insurance companies need flimsy excuses to reject claims.
Medical insurance is a very confusing subject and it took me a long time to understand parts of it

[Axe77]

Came across this video today. I personally can’t imagine retiring at an age as early as 40, just from the standpoint of more and more prolonged life expectancy. Still, several interesting points in the video itself - some may resonate while others may not.

TL;DR is that he retired just shy of 40 years of age with a corpus of 12 cr and a 2 year old child. Drives a Honda City for those who’re curious as to his choice of wheels.

https://youtu.be/YBNczak3lR0?si=22c4LzG8GwT2b2fc

[desidino]

I don't quite agree with him that early retirement is the last resort when you are not happy with your job. Of course, many of us don't love our job and it definitely is a contributing factor, but early retirement is due to something much more fundamental to the human psyche. We crave freedom once our basic needs are taken care of.

I do agree with him that it is critical to control expenses. Travel cost is what I was most worried about when I took a break from work 2 years back (I was 40 then). Especially, given that for 6-7 years prior to that my wife and I used to take at least 1 foreign trip every year.

I hail from Uttarakhand and am currently based in Dehradun. With the multitude of nearby options for nature walks and day hikes, we no longer have a strong urge for foreign travel. Longer trips to Garhwal Himalayas invariably happen a few times a year now which takes care of the itch for touring.

As of now, things are holding up financially, and if they continue to hold for the next few years, I might convert this break into a permanent retirement.

While retiring early sounds wonderful, it is essential that you get your finances vetted thoroughly by a trusted financial advisor before taking the plunge. Especially if you have children and other long term obligations.

But, foremost you need to ask yourself why you wish to retire early. Is it only due to a bad job ? To put it the other way, if you had a great job that you loved, where you made big bucks and were highly appreciated, would you still retire ? If the answer is no, then don't retire. Try to find that great job and those great people whom you wish to work with.

In my case, while I had no great love for my job, I slowly realized that even if I had a great job, I still would like to retire, since even the greatest job in the world would not give me what I want most - freedom. Not a wild uncontrolled freedom to go crazy, but freedom to use my time the way I want to without having to constantly hold my time hostage to obligations that in the end don't really matter much to me. Freedom from having meetings scheduled on the calendar for the next week or month. Freedom to not know what would happen tomorrow.

However, this realization did not come before I took the break. At that time I just wished to take a couple of years break. This is where a trusted financial advisor came in handy and made me realize that not only could I take a break, I could retire if I wanted to. With that possibility in mind, I decided to treat the next few years as an experiment. To see whether I liked the slow life, whether I could control my expenses, whether my finances kept up, and most importantly whether I could see myself continue this path for the rest of my life.

Fast forward two years and here are my key takeaways:

- Only you know about your finances (apart from your trusted financial advisor). So, having done your due diligence before taking the plunge, don't worry too much about what others say you need (although, you do need a bare minimum of 20 times your yearly expenses).

- Closely monitor your finances, respect it, and ensure that after all your expenses, your portfolio is still growing. And yet don't shy away from occasionally stretching your expenses on something that resonates with your soul.

- Find something that truly moves you. Maybe it's music, maybe dance, reading books, working on your fitness, travel, teaching, yoga, etc. There are people who love learning a new skill every few months. And then there are those like me who are content with a slow life as long as we are surrounded by books and mountains.

- Carefully choose where you are going to settle down. Family obligations are important. So, are your interests. Dehradun was a natural choice for us to be near our parents and relatives. It was also perfect to be near nature and mountains which we can't do without. There is a contentful happiness in being amidst nature.

- Do find time to go out once in a while. While a slow life is great, sometimes it can get too slow. Only when you go out do you realize the value of coming back to the cozy comfort of your home.

- Find some organization or group of like minded people who share your interests. This way you still get to meet new people. You don't have to make them your friends. But, it's nice to share pleasurable activities with others. More importantly, you get to know about new places and things to do which you otherwise may not have known or done on your own.

- Relatives can be a pain, but maintaining community ties is important. It keeps you rooted. Having mostly lived away from Uttarakhand earlier, I could hardly ever attend social functions of relatives. I still don't know many of my extended relatives, but I am beginning to. This may not seem important to those who have lost all connection to their ancestral village. But, in Uttarakhand, almost everyone still has ties to their ancestral village due to yearly poojas that happen in the villages for gram devata/ devi (village deity) and kul devata/ devi (deity of fellow jaati members).

- Grow a thick skin. People will judge you for retiring early. Perhaps even think that you have gone crazy. Forgive them, since it is a natural instinct of any society to ensure that its members don't deviate too much from the norm in order to preserve social order.

- There will be times when you would wonder whether you could have accumulated more capital to live more lavishly or to splurge more on your desires. During such times, remember why you chose this path in the first place. To me, controlling my expenses is a small price to pay for freedom. And no amount of money is enough to fulfill all the desires that the mind can conjure. Moderation is the key.

- Last, but not the least, taking a break or retiring early is a massive decision that cannot be taken lightly. Make sure that your life partner is completely in alignment with you and can tolerate you being near them all the time.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Agree with this.

Looks romantic but when it comes down to getting hands dirty -
For those who want to try this route - preferably work on someone's farm for one year and see if that is good enough for you else drop the idea for good.

This snippet from Tintin about Thomson and Thompson immediately came to mind as soon as I read this statement of yours. And yes, if one stops to think, this is so true.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by redcruiser

1. How much would a health insurance cost now for couple around 60 years old?)

No one can be sure on the premium as it all depends on the market conditions and overall health insurance business which is not making at any really money for most of the insurance companies providing it.

Just to get an idea if India becomes a developed country by then and can be compared to the West then the current Health Insurance costs in the West will help you assume a figure you can anticipate but do keep in mind our population compared to theirs.

Originally Posted by redcruiser

2. Would it be prudent to take health insurance at 60 or just continue the company provided health insurance after retirement. Yes, MediAssist who is the 3rd party at our company says "you can continue the insurance even after leaving the company by paying myself")

No one can guarantee that your health insurance will be renewed with the same terms and conditions next year not even your own company. And the benefits you get under your company group mediclaim policy will never be the same when you try to buy it on an individual basis be it premium or coverages and the company has better negotiation data and volume compared to individual numbers.

Just to give you an idea TCS pays close to 2k crore premium for its group mediclaim for its employees. So, an employee who leaves TCS will never have the same bargaining power individually.

Originally Posted by redcruiser

3. Well, if you calculate 1 OPD consultation for a super specialist which costs 600 bucks at current price. Assuming 8% inflation, after 20 years it would be 27k, for 4% it is 18K. This looks insane but I think this is what inflation is going to do. Any thoughts on this ?
I guess once you are above 60 you should estimate minimum 8 visits to the doc No limit for max visits though.
3.a : In case point 2 doesn't work out (i.e medical insurance) how much would 1 night stay at a corporate hospital cost 20 years down the line.)

Medical cost in India is rising at an inflation of 15%+.

Originally Posted by redcruiser

5. What should be the inflation percent one should account for the below items
1) Travelling by Air ? 10k now for to and fro in India. How much would it be 20 yr down?
2) Fuel Prices? . Not sure How Ev will shape up.. Let's just club electricity cost and fuel costs for owning a vehicle in one bucket.
3) 1 night hotel stay (ln a standard hotel that costs 15k)

Real world overall Inflation cost for an Indian is around 10 to 11%.

Originally Posted by Axe77

Came across this video today. I personally can’t imagine retiring at an age as early as 40, just from the standpoint of more and more prolonged life expectancy. Still, several interesting points in the video itself - some may resonate while others may not.

TL;DR is that he retired just shy of 40 years of age with a corpus of 12 cr and a 2 year old child. Drives a Honda City for those who’re curious as to his choice of wheels.

Have seen this video earlier and the biggest realisation is that people think that you have lost your worth because now you're just sitting at home the whole day.

My parents keep telling me that I should never think of retiring as I would get bored sitting at home and may loose my mental balance over time as my mind will never be occupied with work

Also, the financial uncertainty when you are not drawing a fixed monthly salary anymore. For that when I say what it I make the money I earn annually with a 10% pay hike calculated for the years I have left to retire today itself, wouldn't that be enough and they still don't seem to be convinced. Maybe its all just an excel calculation for them at the moment but for Indian parents of our generation attaining F.I.R.E ( Financially Independent Retire Early) before or at 40 is just not possible.

Originally Posted by desidino

In my case, while I had no great love for my job, I slowly realized that even if I had a great job, I still would like to retire, since even the greatest job in the world would not give me what I want most - freedom. Not a wild uncontrolled freedom to go crazy, but freedom to use my time the way I want to without having to constantly hold my time hostage to obligations that in the end don't really matter much to me. Freedom from having meetings scheduled on the calendar for the next week or month. Freedom to not know what would happen tomorrow.

Precisely. The corporate rat race is not worth it for any kind of money in my eyes when compared to mental peace as you can earn much more with greater peace of mind if you apply your mind in the right decision. It will be harder at first because only a corporate job guarantees a fixed salary every month unless the company has a crazy on paper valuation.and zero corresponding business number to justify it. But, for higher rewards one has to take higher risks and calculated ones unless your father or father in law has a fat bank balance to fall back on

Originally Posted by desidino

- Only you know about your finances (apart from your trusted financial advisor). So, having done your due diligence before taking the plunge, don't worry too much about what others say you need (although, you do need a bare minimum of 20 times your yearly expenses).

Health and Wealth cannot be outsourced as they correctly say one has to be able to make correct financial calculations with good buffer and the future financially can never be predicted accurately so no harm having a few extra in your excel calculation and subsequently your bank balance.

Originally Posted by desidino

- Closely monitor your finances, respect it, and ensure that after all your expenses, your portfolio is still growing. And yet don't shy away from occasionally stretching your expenses on something that resonates with your soul.

Even if one stops working his/her money has to work for them or else they will eventually run out of money unless they decrease their spendings and reduce their lifestyle over the years

Originally Posted by desidino

- Grow a thick skin. People will judge you for retiring early. Perhaps even think that you have gone crazy. Forgive them, since it is a natural instinct of any society to ensure that its members don't deviate too much from the norm in order to preserve social order.

People will only believe it when someone finally does and achieve what they always spoke about till then you're only rich and financially independent on an excel sheet.

While some people will still speak negative and give financial advice with a lower pay/earning/bank balance.

Originally Posted by desidino

- There will be times when you would wonder whether you could have accumulated more capital to live more lavishly or to splurge more on your desires. During such times, remember why you chose this path in the first place. To me, controlling my expenses is a small price to pay for freedom. And no amount of money is enough to fulfill all the desires that the mind can conjure. Moderation is the key.

The number always grows as desires to do better never fades away. And one needs to be on the boil to be relevant and at the same spot for years to come or even Mr Ambani would have drawn the curtains by now.

Originally Posted by desidino

- Last, but not the least, taking a break or retiring early is a massive decision that cannot be taken lightly. Make sure that your life partner is completely in alignment with you and can tolerate you being near them all the time.

Family has to be convinced at all costs especially if you're the soul bread earner in the family and don't have a proper fall back plan.

Partner tolerating you being home all the time is a different story all together.

[charanreddy]

This is something I have wondered over and over. I have just turned 40, so you can see the allure

For me , per my calculations if you own your home outright ( no mortgage ) and have ~15 Cr. net worth (does not include your home) and it is fairly well distributed ( not just stuck in a big piece of real estate which is hard to liquidate), and one is OK to living the relatively simple life, then one can potentially consider retiring. With low job stress we can add 5 - 10 yrs to our lifespan . But this very much depends on family circumstances. I.e. how comfortable you are living with in means and more importantly how comfortable is your life partner. For majority of Indian households, this could be a deal breaker as marriages as arranged and they come with their own conveniences and overheads. It would be worse to quit your office boss and then work 24X7 for your wife as the boss :P

Boils down to whether solitude is your thing..

Also what would you spend your time on.. farming ? Meditation ? Travelling ?? Also do note, while we may be free, our friends and relatives are still engaged in work.

For me , as soon as I hit the above targets, I would pull back from the rat race and work part time or pursue learning or even travel.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

For me , per my calculations if you own your home outright ( no mortgage ) and have ~15 Cr. net worth

Since we're finally getting down to some numbers- for me, if I had even 1/3rd that (excluding the value of own home), I'd happily invest conservatively and retire tomorrow! The joy of being able to tell my boss' boss (my immediate manager is a nice person though) to take a hike would be the icing on the cake!

To each his own of course, but 15 is a huge sum.

How did you estimate 15cr? Are you factoring in children's education/wedding expenses? And thanks for sharing, not often we get into actual figures here, but it helps.

Originally Posted by desidino

To me, controlling my expenses is a small price to pay for freedom.

Absolutely, am getting around to this frame of mind too. In my case, I have identified something I'm passionate about and would happily spend more time on (right now it's restricted to weekends and holidays). But I always feel that why log out of the prime earning years of my life. That too the job has very good working conditions and allows me to still pursue what I want on weekends. But again, I also realize some of my prime years are going past. Confusing. In a good way I realize, am very privileged, but still some musings relevant to this thread.

[Acharya]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

(does not include your home) and it is fairly well distributed ( not just stuck in a big piece of real estate which is hard to liquidate),

Been hearing such statements about real estate from the time I met first so called financial advisor.
In a city like Blore, where real estate has grown leaps & bounds in last three decade, majority of RE investments have given excellent outcomes. Couple of friends have sold 3-4 properties each and now near their retirement goals by mid 40s. No, they are not RE brokers but typical Blore IT guys.
In fact, RE investments have brought many investors closer to their financial freedom.

Like all investments, RE requires time, research & patience to deliver.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by am1m

How did you estimate 15cr? Are you factoring in children's education/wedding expenses? And thanks for sharing, not often we get into actual figures here, but it helps.

This is how you can attempt to calculate the corpus needed at the time of retirement.

You split the expected expenses into 4 buckets:

a. Monthly expenses (rent, food, clothes, bills, maid, fuel, medical, entertainment etc.)

b. Recurring annually (school fees, travel, insurance, car repairs, appliance replacements etc.)

c. One-time expenses like children higher education/wedding/car purchases. The present value of such expenses are easy to calculate. For example, if you estimate one of such expense to be 1Cr 10 years later, then at 5% rate of return you need ~61 lakhs now.

d. Medical buffer: Add some amount (~ 1Cr ??) for any unforeseen expensive medical treatments.

In the Indian context, one can safely generate 4% post tax returns even with ultra safe FDs. In other words, to get a and b above using only returns, you need a corpus of 25 * (a*12 + b). That's because 4% of 25 = 1.

The final calculation of retirement corpus needed = (((a * 12) + b) * 25) + Σc + d

The risk in this calculation is that if you unfortunately use up the medical buffer in the first year itself.

Hope this helps.

[desidino]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

The number always grows as desires to do better never fades away. And one needs to be on the boil to be relevant and at the same spot for years to come or even Mr Ambani would have drawn the curtains by now.

Ambanis of the world have strong Rajas. For them, working is not just about keeping scores or increasing bank balance, but a tapasya in itself. In Ikigai parlance, they have found their "flow" and they would never retire in the conventional sense since their work or action itself gives them the bliss of retirement.
Hence, it is critical that one analyzes oneself thoroughly as to what kind of person you are and what makes you truly happy. If worldly action makes one happy, then one should think more in terms of financial independence rather than retirement since such independence would give a person great freedom to pursue actions that bring them true happiness - be it a startup, an NGO, teaching, helping out others, etc. Even then nothing is set in stone, and if one is happy at a job, who is anyone to say that such a person should retire.

Originally Posted by charanreddy

Boils down to whether solitude is your thing..

Also what would you spend your time on.. farming ? Meditation ? Travelling ?? Also do note, while we may be free, our friends and relatives are still engaged in work.

For me , as soon as I hit the above targets, I would pull back from the rat race and work part time or pursue learning or even travel.

Solitude is one way to utilize one's freedom. Or one could start a company and be even more busy than a corporate job. Retirement doesn't mean to do nothing. It means freedom to do anything (while being grounded based on financial realities and obligations). The very fact that we are having this discussion, shows that India is progressing through the inevitable phases of economic upliftment where the initial generations after independence did the heavy lifting so that the current generation can think beyond roti, kapda and makaan. Due to our parents and forefathers we now have the most precious resource - time. Retirement planning is nothing more than figuring out how to best use this most precious, limited, diminishing resource without going broke and without being answerable to anyone else. Only you know how best you can utilize your time.

Originally Posted by am1m

Absolutely, am getting around to this frame of mind too. In my case, I have identified something I'm passionate about and would happily spend more time on (right now it's restricted to weekends and holidays). But I always feel that why log out of the prime earning years of my life. That too the job has very good working conditions and allows me to still pursue what I want on weekends. But again, I also realize some of my prime years are going past. Confusing. In a good way I realize, am very privileged, but still some musings relevant to this thread.

We all are truly privileged to have such discussions. I would say stick around with the job and count yourself lucky that the working conditions are good. In any case, once the itch grows sufficiently strong, you will know what to do. In the meantime, keep building up your portfolio.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by desidino

Ambanis of the world have strong Rajas. For them, working is not just about keeping scores or increasing bank balance, but a tapasya in itself. In Ikigai parlance, they have found their "flow" and they would never retire in the conventional sense since their work or action itself gives them the bliss of retirement.

My reference to Ambani was for the position he currently is in the business world, which he can only maintain/sustain by putting in more efforts than ever before and by continuing to think out of the box. Or else other business houses will overtake him and grow much bigger in no time. This made more relevance when Mr. Vijaypat Singhania in a recent interview mentioned that the Singhania name in the 40's was much bigger and even bigger than Birla's which is no longer the case.

On the other hand I also initially a decade back started with calculations in my head where I would arrive at a sum, which I would have invested maybe in fixed deposits and survive on the interest earned off it but that was quickly thrown out of the window as a critical component Inflation was not accounted for and the interest component is never a given on what levels it would be maintained in the long run and ultimately the capital amount will get eroded sooner than expected.

Hence, even if one retires with a sizeable amount in his 40's to be financially comfortable the money has to be invested and needs to continue to grow at a decent return of 15 to 20%. That is what I personally want to achieve. 🤞