[alpha1]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

1. While we know EU is able to handle less work sitting on slavery and colonialism, what is the point if the global south get into a self imposed "extended work hours" ? What really is the end game here ?


2. We know SKorea and Japan have grown very well. South Korea has the biggest growth recorded ever in the history of the world.
But, again, what really is the end game here?

But you already know the answer. There is no end-game.
There is always a new problem created, a new solution marketed, someone makes money driven mainly by socio-economic dominance, and the rest of the humans trying to play a catch up in acquiring wealth - a large percentage doing so in order to survive, another significant percentage trying their hand at gaining socio-economic dominance.

Using a cliched phrase:
“We buy things we don't need with money we don't have to impress people we don't like.”

SKorea is on path to where Japan is right now, right ?
I mean, if "LIFE" as a whole is about less sleep and more work right from your childhood, the only condition we can aim for is to be like Japan, right ?
Population is too nihilistic to even reproduce.

I am trying to genuinely understand what are the legitimate reasons for giving away the present for a future that is getting farther and farther away.

For most populations, the message given is "Work hard now, and it will get better in future"
Decades pass, and the message evolves into "Work hard now..."

Keep in mind that Hunter-gatherers "work" for around 20 hours per week, whereas the agricultural societies end of "working" for far longer.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not quite sure what you mean here, also it is factual incorrect. Look it up, more EU countries did not, then did colonialism. Admittedly those few tried their damnest to make up for the lack of the others, but most coloniasm was done by only one/two handful of countries. (of course, the Dutch tried to lead the pack here for a long time, no mistake, blame my ancestors)

Two of the world's biggest economies - EU and US - profited heavily from colonialism and slavery for centuries. Any argument to the contrary is just abysmally incorrect. You (not you personally, Jeroen) can make subtle points that Lithuania and Latvia never had colonies, but the facts remain the same.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

My daughter and son in law, are both actively pursuing careers, have a 9 month old baby daughter, own their own house, a car, take lots of holidays around the world, pursue many interests and hobbies, and neither of them have ever worked a full time job. They both work part time, between the two of them make enough money to lead a very comfortable life. It’s a good example of modern day couple putting this whole work/life balance thing into good practice.

This is not possible in India, unless you live in a small town and somehow have a remote/online job servicing international clients. Also take into account the fact that our per capita income means that a holiday around the world is far more expensive for Indians - eight times what it would cost a Dutch person, adjusted for PPP. This applies to iPhones, computers, Levi's jeans, and all the modcons associated with life today. So either we work eight times as hard / long - which is physically impossible - or we settle for less.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

To me it is about the ability to make individual choices in how to lead your life. There is no good or wrong, just individual preferences. And those are to a large extend a reflection of the time you live in. My dad worked his whole life, 6 days a week, two weeks holiday per year. He was a wealthy man, but the notion of just working less, or retiring early never ever crossed his mind. People of his generation, irrespective of their social station in life, just worked always.

I am probably of the generation that enjoyed more holidays, (5-6 weeks per year) and were the first to have ability to do so much more with our live than just work. My daughter and her husband (generation wise) are just a further extension of that.

This is a very good insight. It shows that today we are at the post-war generation of the EU, at least on this forum. Our children may be like your generation.

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

I am trying to genuinely understand what are the legitimate reasons for giving away the present for a future that is getting farther and farther away.

For most populations, the message given is "Work hard now, and it will get better in future"
Decades pass, and the message evolves into "Work hard now..."

This is the bedrock of the Protestant work ethic, or Calvinism. Work is worship. Take pride in what you do, do it to the best of your ability, and you will find joy in the work itself. This has worked remarkably well for countries and cultures with a Protestant majority for the last few centuries.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Two of the world's biggest economies - EU and US - profited heavily from colonialism and slavery for centuries. Any argument to the contrary is just abysmally incorrect. You (not you personally, Jeroen) can make subtle points that Lithuania and Latvia never had colonies, but the facts remain the same.
.

I said you were technically incorrect, and that is correct.

If anything the EU did not even exist until 1993. Prior and after it constitutes of an increasing number of countries. Look up the GDPs, number of inhabitants, welfare, education levels. You would be very surprised how much is happening in these “other EU countries” if I can call them like that.

Whereas the individual countries have a lot to account for, it has nothing to do with the EU as such. I will say that the EU (and the E(E)C prior to that never did much about its colonial past. Although at long last that is being addressed:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...X.2020.1749701

I don’t think we disagree on anything material. It is just that I see terms like Europe, EU, EC (even Schengen countries) being used in context that I don’t think does justice to what is really meant, or to which countries it really pertains. Which if anything is also a function of time!

Let's leave it at that.

This is not possible in India.
Also take into account the fact that our per capita income means that a holiday around the world is far more expensive for Indians

I think it is beginning to come to India, it will be just a matter of time. Just be aware that holidaying around the world is not for everybody. My daughter and son in law certainly don’t. They pack a backpack and hop on a train or bus to Greece.

There are already plenty of Indians taking their holidays to for instance Dubai. They will be spending a lot more (in absolute money) then my daughter and her hubby.

Obviously, taking holidays abroad is still reserved for a relative small section of the Indian population, whereas in say wester Europe, many families can afford a couple of week abroad. (not necessarily around the world though).

There is no doubt in my mind that the Indian middle class is growing rapidly. What is available to them, in terms of how they spend their income is of course different from most of the west. But I do see the gap closing rapidly. One of the big difference between India and many western countries is the division of wealth. How many people / families can you classify as middle income? Depends a bit of your definition but in a country such as the Netherlands more than 85% qualifies, 14 % has less and 1% has more (more than Euro 100.000 gross a year).

Which brings me back to my earlier point; I believe that societies need to grow/enhance in such a way that the vast majority can lead comfortable lives, have ability to have some flexibility in work / personal life. And little outliers, on the low and high side of the spectrum.

It is all about creating a more even, fairer, level playing field for all.

Jeroen

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I said you were technically incorrect, and that is correct.

Actually, that was someone else you were discussing it with.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Actually, that was someone else you were discussing it with.

Sorry about that, but you get, and the other guy hopefully, will get my drift I trust.

Enough said already

Jeroen

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

...what are the legitimate reasons for giving away the present for a future that is getting farther and farther away...

If you aren't convinced to work hard and wait to be rewarded in the indeterminate future, the alternative is questioning why you can't be rewarded for your hard work as you expend it.

The kind of questions that mindset brings about, has potential to cause all kinds of upheaval of epic proportions.

We're all washing off previous lives' sins (pichle janam ke paap), and accruing virtue (punya) for the next, or so one gets told often, because that's simpler to sell and goes down easier than having to explain why a large chunk of us can't seem to catch a break however hard we work.

[V.Narayan]

Responding generically to points made above. Just sharing my live experience on the ground in Europe. I had two businesses, one in France and one in the UK. I owned both 100%. Both small to mid-sized with ~150 employees each. The French worked 35 hours a week, 7 x5. That's it. But I'll say this for them during those 7 hours they worked. Their quality was reasonable to good to very good. But I struggled to get them to work beyond 35 hours a week and used to, believe it or not ship British & Bulgarian crews into France to take on extra urgent work loads for which of course they received a higher wage rate. With the British a common language being an asset all I had to do was gather the supervisors in a huddle on how to tackle the extra work, weekends, longer hours etc and between the first and second cup of tea it was all sorted out. Like every group of people we had the good, the bad and the ugly in the same proportion I would have found in India. People fundamentally are the same all over. The Europeans (Western & Scandinavian at least) need less danda and have grown up with a contract headset - I need to do X in Y time and take home Z money and after that the time is mine. You respect that work ethic and things flow smoothly even with a 35-hour week. In India our work ethic has a very wide standard deviation you have a large great performance group and a bigger group with less than adequate discipline who have to be trained and trained and trained.

On a different topic, throwing colonialism at todays generation of Europeans is not relevant or fair. 2+ generations have gone by. Time to move on.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

Broader point, it is without doubt that irrespective of whether one earns a higher salary or not, I am sure everybody at least in this forum would agree that they have longer work hours than their parents ever did.

Cannot agree with a blanket statement like that. Probably if you look at the billed hours, it might be more, but in reality, the actual work hours are more or less the same or even lesser for the current generation IT worker.

[thehighwayman]

This is a great idea, and honestly this is how it should have always been for a perfect work life balance. I am all for it and hope it gets implemented soon enough.

[ASP007]

I'm not interested in the 3 days week off. At least not in India where employees are already having prolonged working hours. Instead, government should ensure that corporates are not forcing employees to work more than 45 hours a week including breaks. Many of the top MNCs in India who have outsourced projects are already breaching this, thus putting employees in stress. 4 days working week would aggravate this further.

A typical IT sector employee is already squeezing 12 hours for work. 10 hours at office (9 + 1 hour break) and another 2 hours for travel. Do they get enough time to sleep, attend their house chores and family? No!

Now, imagine a 4 days working week. 12-13 hours at work, and another 2 hours of travel. 15 hours is gone and contribute more to health issues. I'm already seeing my developers are stretching to meet the deliverables. Also, after 3 days off, I could imagine the piled up tasks on the next working day; as we don't work on weekends.

[AMG Power]

A 4 day work week WILL WORK in India if:

1. It’s a small to medium sized company and you DON’T own it. So, the losses, disruptions and slow growth are not to your account.

2. You work for a large MNC IT company in India , where productivity levels in most cases have become worse than government departments. Whether it’s 4 or 5 days wouldn’t make a difference - you’ll probably have less scrum meetings, less arguments within the team and less opportunity to keep a customer dissatisfied. The company would save on electricity, free lunches and travel costs during the pre pandemic days.

3. You have a workforce in India that is trained to work and think like a typical EU workforce and they can bring out a 36 / 40 hour productivity in 4 days. You could think of arranging a flight to Mars with more success.

[pkk077]

I work as a software developer and what I have observed over the years is that it's difficult to get 2 hrs of undisturbed quality time at a stretch twice a day. My best productive weeks are where I squeeze out a couple or more 2 hours sessions over the weekend. So to me, work is like sleep. One may be in the bed for 8 hrs but quality deep sleep may not be more than 2-3 hrs each night. Is it possible to compress weekly sleep to 7 deep sleep sessions of 2-3 hrs each over 4 nights? May be a Swami Ramdev can do it but not me. I need to be in bed for 8 hrs everyday to get the 2 hrs of deep sleep. People with great concentration powers may be able to sit for 10 hrs 4 days a week and be productive but not me. I instead hope WFH becomes a norm so I can squeeze those 2 hrs productive sessions in my week whenever I can and want to.

[Ottomatic]

I would prefer 6 hour working for 6 days. This way, you work each day and get enough time each day. 3 days continuous holiday every week is not what I would like.

6 Hours work
7 Hours Sleep
5 Hours Leisure
6 Hours for your other personal liabilities

Nicely spent 24 hours.

[Tucker48]

4 days work week is an option proposed to in addition to existing 5/6 days work week. Maximum number of hours remain the same i.e 48 hrs. Isn't this a progressive decision by the govt to give more options?
If the commuting time to office is substantial then 4 days work week will definitely benefit employees. Mostly, only big companies can implement 4 days work week. Also, a Japanese company published it's research on 4 days work week where it stated efficiency/ productivity increased as compared to 5 days work week.
Govts are trying to create a work-life balance although that varies from person to person. That balance leads to mental well being.
IMHO, one should have enough time to introspect his life on daily or at maximum weekly basis.

[V.Narayan]

Germany to try 4-day work week from February 1 for the next six months


https://www.msn.com/en-in/health/hea...03439ed9&ei=27


Germany is all set to try a 4-day work week from February 1, 2024, for the next six months. Germany is currently struggling with a sluggish economy, a lack of skilled workers, and high inflation, as per reports. In such times, the study aims to find out if having a 4-day work week would make employees healthier, happier, and more productive as suggested by labour unions.

During the trial period, employees would work for fewer hours per week for the same pay, but their output should be the same or more to make it successful. Apart from increased productivity, employees are also expected to take fewer leaves-- due to stress, sickness, or burnout. This could in turn help reduce the companies' and the global economy's losses.

Germany also has a high proportion of part-time workers in the European Union (EU), and those who advocate the four-day week believe it could help in attracting more untapped potential in this segment. This is not the first time that a country has implemented or suggested a 4-day work week. In 2022, Belgium became the first country in the EU to make a 4-day work week optional-- while the total working hours in the week would be the same as a 5-day work week. Meanwhile, in Japan companies are encouraged to have a 4-day work week so that people can spend time with family, have kids, and spend money-- which would boost their economy and aging population.

Where population demographics, discipline, productivity, unemployed youth etc are concerned Germany is far removed from India and our situation. I am sure the upper crust Indians, most on this Team BHP community for sure would love this. Does 5-day week increase output? Is this Germans being higher up on Maslow's need hierarchy voting for leisure vs hunger, money etc. Was the 6-day week better than the 5-day week from an output point of view? Frankly I don't know there is no one size fits all answer. When I started my career 6-day week was the norm in India. Only MNCs followed a 5-day week! That Saturday evening was the sweetest few hours of the week. Outside large corporations and the Government, India is still 6-day week country.