[amit_purohit20]

My personal opinion is truth needs to be investigated. I doubt that a simple altercation with police about shop timing can turn nasty enough into this death. Something is being hidden. If its police high handedness it needs to be punished.

[architect_santo]

On this context as quoted by the MP of that constituency Kanimozhi Karunanidhi, who has written to the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC)...
"According to the National Crime Records Bureau, Tamil Nadu stands at the second position in lock-up deaths. So far not even a single charge-sheet has been filed and none were punished." - Source Indian Express, 26th June 2020.

This is horrifying to hear! Hope the pressure and attention let this situation change and lead towards the end of police brutality.

[V.Narayan]

Social Media in India got quite active and rightfully so over the George Floyd tragedy but has thus far remained more muted {maybe Tamil Nadu is more active} on these two tragic and brutal deaths. Without a doubt the TN Govt and the TN top cops need to demonstrate how many vertebrae they have and file the FIRs and ask for no bail to be granted. That these cops who clearly have very sick minds and hearts need to be punished is not in doubt.

The point I wish to make is that this is merely the extreme end of the general attitude of invulnerability and colonial arrogance that permeates Govt departments that deal with the public. An attitude that we the Govt are the imperious rulers be grateful you are allowed to live. An attitude that as a Govt official vis-a-vis the public I cannot be touched thanks to Govt rules, thanks to courts that take far too long and thanks to my own colleagues closing ranks to shield guilty me.

This basket of attitudes shows out in far too many of our {the public's} interactions with Govt officials -- from simple notice to deposit house tax, to your appeal against a tax ruling by some assessing officer, to getting approvals to construct your house, to getting a Govt inflicted inaccuracy in your records corrected and so on. Mind you there are exceptions and when you see them you realize these are the exceptions that prove the rule. A lot of this tone has of course been set by history and today a young person joining Govt service does know that the power, the status is a part of the perks package. This power has two facets - the power to reform, create, solve, build. And the power to refuse, deny, ration, stop, cancel. Unfortunately, other than a few, several of them stay with the latter and ignore the former.

Having dealt with the Govt, for better and worse, at several layers of their hierarchy I don't believe they can be reformed from within. They can only be reformed by replacement. Replacement in the form of digitization of records and public interface, reduction of rules, reduction of permissions needed , reduction of touch points at which the public needs to deal with them.

The biggest culprits on lack of police reforms have been our politicians who have postponed police reform bills since the 1960s literally. A model Police Act was drafted in 2006. Only half the States adopted it on paper and none set up the independent body headed by a Judge to be the appellate for complaints against the police. There are many in the police that want these reforms as the reforms also protect the cops from their political bosses and their own less honest colleagues. We have a very long way to go. But I have hope. When I started my career in 1982 the stranglehold of the license raj was such that it seemed it could never be shaken off for it was the fountain of unbridled power our bureaucrats drank from. But destiny turned and unexpected crises' brought change.

[dark.knight]

I've repeatedly said that the police are the only group that will hurt you in your greatest time of need, as a small boy I watched as two potbellied khaki boors sat on the sofa sipping chai and coffee (with requests on how much sugar to add) when we had basically called them due to our house being ransacked when parents and I went for a 1 day trip.

Yes legal situation is stable everywhere due to fear of police, but when the time comes that these notes counting buffoons are needed, one can truly delve deep into their empathy deleted, abject psychopathy. I've seen how heavy handed they were when Corona lockdown was enforced, stones, sticks, pipes, nothing was spared. Also I know what they do in the name of law-enforcement here (hand into pocket exercise), same stuff in their police "stations" where more notes exchange hands than a bank.

In my view, no matter how bad, one shouldn't call these demons, and its better to stay at home and remain hungry than allow these bloodthirsty beings have a go at you since now they are fully endorsed by a much higher evil called bureaucracy.

These cops will run scott free, first time I've seen a case of taking lives to possibly save lives.

[TheHelix0202]

In times like these, we have insensitive people on social media posting comments like this. Makes me wonder if cavemen were better off.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The point I wish to make is that this is merely the extreme end of the general attitude of invulnerability and colonial arrogance that permeates Govt departments that deal with the public. An attitude that we the Govt are the imperious rulers be grateful you are allowed to live. An attitude that as a Govt official vis-a-vis the public I cannot be touched thanks to Govt rules, thanks to courts that take far too long and thanks to my own colleagues closing ranks to shield guilty me.

From British colonial times the administration (ie executive/ bureaucrats etc) were tasked with implementing the policies of a colonising force. The police were the pointy end of that apparatus.

The British tried to maintain the fiction of 'equal before the law' but had enough tricks up their sleeve so that it was never the case. One of these was that it was impossible to prosecute anyone in the administration. (eg. prosecution of a government servant cannot be initiated till his superior agrees to it!)

For truly egregious offences/ offenders, the guilty would be transferred. This was their way of saying, OK, we admit guilt. But that is as far as we will go. The reason why we give so much importance to 'been transferred'.
All this has continued from British times through independence right to the present. Don't ask me why.

The biggest culprits on lack of police reforms have been our politicians who have postponed police reform bills since the 1960s literally.

With every change of government I used to hope that two things would get implemented - police reforms, and education reforms. Looks like these will remain wishes.

Today politicians (esp. ruling party, irrespective of ideology) see and use the police as their enforcers/ goon squads in uniform. (People know of the corruption in the police forces. Most do not know that they are given monthly quotas which they have to give 'upwards'. Anything beyond that is theirs).
This essentially means that police reforms will not get done. It is monetarily detrimental to too many people in power.
It also means that the perverts and sadists within the force are essentially free to carry on as usual without any fear of consequences for their actions.

Sutripta

[Prowler]

This is nothing new in Tamilnadu. Police brutality in TamilNadu is so notorious, a Judge noted this some years ago about the mid night arrest of the ex-cm Karunanidhi -"If this can happen to an aged ex-cm, I shudder to think what will happen to a common man."
Under the current lockdown, the Madras citizens are virtually under house arrest. The bureaucrats and the police have usurped power and we live under conditions worse than a totalitarian state. This father son custodial death, coming after Sterilite shooting which took 21 lives a couple of years ago in the Tuticorin, places Tamil nadu as a number one state in horrific crimes against its own subjects.
The root cause is we still have the slave mentality from the Moghal/Colonial rule.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

Now I smell a rotten rat here, those VIP's who are supporting are communists and anti- present Government so expect this to take a ugly political turn and then soon nobody would be interested in delivering justice but scoring browny points over someones death.

My personal opinion is truth needs to be investigated. I doubt that a simple altercation with police about shop timing can turn nasty enough into this death. Something is being hidden. If its police high handedness it needs to be punished.

Talk about missing the wood for the trees, two people were tortured to death and your concern is the political leanings of those who at least bothered to raise the issue?

Your doubts mean nothing, both of them were killed by the police, graphic details are available all over, would it matter if they were shot dead or had their throats slit. The opposition is still relevant in a democracy, someone like you won't figure it out unless you are at the receiving end of state violence.

[mvadg]

This has been going on forever. The big change is that now technology allows us to get closer to the incident and participate in discussions and vent our anger. But it has to go well beyond this!

Note the silence. Beyond a few measured words, nothing much from from powerful people. No mass protests, no litigation, no call for changes to the police force, no call for reform, nothing. Those in the government will soon use it to their own advantage - I am sure they will pull out a few rabbits at least.

I see some members right here expressing disbelief and trying to support the police. Others have defended the police and the bureaucrats by stating that "only a few bad apples"... Sorry, the entire system is rotten, there are no good police or good bureaucrats in the system, otherwise such murderous policemen and psychopath bureaucrats would never be able to exist inside the system.

What next? There are nearly no institutions to renew the call for police reform. In fact, this pandemic and the current economic situation is the right time to dismiss the entire police force and start afresh - use it to lower the enormous drain on the exchequer. There are also no legal groups ready to file a PIL or hold those in the government accountable for murder.
No such initiative here:

https://youtu.be/0sazcZ8wwZc

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Talk about missing the wood for the trees, two people were tortured to death and your concern is the political leanings of those who at least bothered to raise the issue..

Yes my concern is the Political leanings because that smells more fishy than it looks on the surface. For you its a simple case of Police High handedness, what if these few Police personnel were paid heavy sums to do the torture on a particular sect/religion/creed/political leaning of people to create unrest in society similar to US?

There have been already inputs from IB about the same which was broadcasted in news. Off course its a case of Police High-handedness but what stops us into looking more deep and finding real reasons of this high-handedness. Was it just Police mentality or something else? Lets not just see the tip of the iceberg and conclude about its height. You live in a land where there are as many internal enemies as external and these are not just conspiracy theories. Pakistan, China and many other nations are pumping money in India to create unrest to make India weak. Hence my sincere request to find all the facts and not just leave it as a case of Police high-handedness.

Your other comments targetting me personally are probably based on an opinion that I want to take some political side or don't want the police to get punished. Both are wrong, my only concern is that the motive behind such Police high-handedness has to be thoroughly investigated. The timing of this incident, the specific political parties which are raising their voice (which normally are silent over many big incidents) raises suspicion that something is beyond Police high-handedness which needs to be investigated. I am worried about internal National security nothing else at this crucial timing when we have two enemies eager to wage war at our borders. We can't afford civil unrest like US at this juncture of time. Jai Hind!

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

... and not just leave it as a case of Police high-handedness...
!

You made it amply clear that you were more concerned about the politics of the incident and the reactions of opposition politicians than the torture and murder of two citizens by those entrusted with the job of protecting us.

I see it as a human rights violation and murder first, I wish to see those in the police and others who allowed this to happen, punished. And second, I see it as a complete failure of the (Indian) police system, the judicial system, the administration, the government and the current people in power.

If it involves foreign powers, all the more reason to put all those responsible behind bars immediately. There are plenty of laws that could be used to do just that! In fact, I am glad to see it from your point of view! Shouldn't the government be taking it up with the greatest urgency? Why would the current government support an enemy foreign power and allow their agents to roam free - this is a question you should be asking the government!

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

Yes my concern is the Political leanings because that smells more fishy than it looks on the surface...

No, this is a consistent pattern and this case has got more attention because of social media. You can trust the state, there's no history of governments oppressing their own citizens, they always have the best interests of the common man at heart.

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

[rahulcmoulee]

The job of the police is to protect us. They have no right to take matters of justice into their own hands. Terrorizing people with authority they do not possess is what is happening right now and it can not and should not be tolerated.

[jbpanda]

Police reform or no police reform, they have no business in venting out their frustration and sick minds to beat up and harass people in the manner they have. They think they can get away with anything. The work environment is often used as a justification for deep rooted corruption which is the primary cause for the inordinate delay and shoddy investigation attributable to them for the judicial system to be unable to punish the perpetrators of crimes more often than not.

It is true that there is a mindset of common people treating them as demigods to avoid being put into trouble and harassment but in situations like these, the judiciary has to step in and direct immediate arrests and scrupulous enquiry and punish them to the hilt. As a lawyer, I am conscious of the rule of law, legal framework and challenges that the system poses and multiple factors involved but there is unfortunately no deterrence of the penal laws in India and conviction rate even worse. I am not espousing brutality because in a country like India there will be more abuse and misuse than its actual use and purpose but in such cases a gulf country like approach for punishing the perpetrators once in a while is must to deter such hooligans and goons in uniform.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Late Justice AN Mulla (former Judge of Honorable Allahabad HC) once said "I say it with all sense of responsibility, that there is not a single lawless group in the whole country, whose record of crime is anywhere near the record of that organized unit, which is known as the Indian Police Force."

There are good cops and there are bad cops, I fail to understand, despite Judgments from the Honorable SC (Arnesh Kumar Vs State of Bihar), states fail to adhere to the same and continue to violate fundamental rights of citizens. Every person should read this landmark judgment.

Spike