Endorsement in Registration Certificate.....Needed ?

Ricky_63 · 27th March 2007, 16:18

Hi

I was thinking of putting a (175 bhp MIVEC) on a Lancer, wanted to clarify if the REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE of a vehicle has to be endorsed / updated if one was to go for an engine transplant ? Would be nice to know if anyone on the Forum has got it done & if is it worth the time & effort to get it done.

Any comments / suggestions are welcome.

Cheers

ported_head · 27th March 2007, 16:23

Err..It's illegal. You won't get any official endorsements.

Ricky_63 · 27th March 2007, 16:51

Thanks for the reply, as I recall there used to be a lot of Diesel Engines being fitted on Ambassadors in the 80's & 90's, wonder what they did ?

esteem_lover · 27th March 2007, 17:15

i dont know why it is illegal. There are many people doing this & getting it endorsed in the RC too. But it should be endorsed in the RC for it to be a legal operation.

Jaggu · 27th March 2007, 17:21

as far as i know, first you have to notify the RTO by filling up a form and paying the fee.

then you have to again run the car through rto for inspection once the transplant is done and then they will endorse it in your certificate.

long and tedious process considering our govt machinery but worth the effort

again you will have to provide host of docs validating the buy and health of the engine

ported_head · 27th March 2007, 17:46

Ok, this is news! So you can get RTO endorsement in the RC book, if you have the patience to battle out the govt. machinery?

Why would they endorse an engine that was never available here for the specific model? Or not even close in specifications? It's not a petrol to diesel conversion, no? And the model is not defunct yet.

Jaggu · 27th March 2007, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ported_head

Ok, this is news! So you can get RTO endorsement in the RC book, if you have the patience to battle out the govt. machinery?

YES

Why would they endorse an engine that was never available here for the specific model? Or not even close in specifications? It's not a petrol to diesel conversion, no? And the model is not defunct yet.

As i said documentation is required, if the engine was indian then obviously a healthy PUC and bill for the engine is required.

Its difficult for imported engine since RTO guys insists on bill for the engine, then if the engine is legal according to pollution norm etc, again second had imported engine (especially refurbished from singapore and all) is a a pain.

At the end of the day, law is vague and machinery enforcing very poor, so pull/push with obvious bribe factor will decide the fate.

This should explain why people dont bother with RTO endorsement in the first place. as per rules any modifications (including sun film, Tyre upgrade, repaint to new color) has to be informed to RTO and modification fee paid.

My experience is limited to a ISZ 1800 engine transplant onto a Standard 2000 car in kerala 5 years back

revtech · 27th March 2007, 18:08

i agree with ported head.i doubt they will accept it.and if you tell them about it and they dont your screwed even more.best is to stay put unless your sure of getting it done.i was thhinking of something similar but decided to forget bout getting it legalised as of now.

Rev

Zappo · 28th March 2007, 00:47

I think the rule is like this. Anything which is a standard noting in the RC will need to be endorsed if undergoes a change. So a change in the body color, fuel type etc gets endorsed. However the engine type is never noted in the RC so a change will also not be endorsed.

Having said that, if the transplant results in the change of the fuel type of the car or the CC of the car that will have to be endorsed. One more thing which will definitely need to be endorsed is the engine number. The RC book has the engine number and the chassis number of your car. So if you put in a new engine with new engine number that will need to be endorsed.

However there are lot of legal glitch in this IMO and hence may not prove to be so easy. Some points which come to mind are
1. If you put in an engine that is not made in india what happens to the homologation rules? RTA is not the authority to do such endorsements.
2. A new engine number means you have to prove that you legally purchased it. What is going to stop you from stealing a car and then cannibalising its parts? Where is the guarantee that this engine was not registered in someone else's car earlier?
3. RTA charges various state taxes based on the CC of the engine. For most states it is one-time. So if the engine you are putting in has a higher CC how do they now calculate the additional taxes to be recovered? Is it on a pro-rata basis or will they charge it on a retrospective basis?

PS:
And here is some more...

4. Insurance is also a factor of the engine size. What happens if you change it mid-way through the insured period?

5. It may also create a legal mess. Picture this. I buy two second hand cars on loan. The loan documents are made out against the birthmarks of the car. So that is the engine number and chassis number. Now afterwards I simply switch the engines of the two vehicles. All of a sudden I have altered the unalterable. I have changed the birthmark of the vehicles. And the lender is in a sticky wicket proving that these are the two vehicles he financed. Will RTA be willing to become a party to such potential legal conflicts? I think not...

manikjeet · 28th March 2007, 01:08

This is what i know so far you got to have the bill of the new engine to get on the RC and you also have to pay some fees and the car has to pass test

i know many people running aftermarket engines under the hood it very rear that your engine gets check i am also running my car for 3 months now

and you wouldn't have insurance

jyobeb · 28th March 2007, 10:09

There is a specific fee for alterations and any modifications made to the vehicle like weight, length and color are supposed to be endorsed. Let me tell you how it is in Tamil Nadu. The RTO guys have banned conversion of petrol vehicles into diesel vehicles and have been very consistent about this. They allowed these conversions till about 2002.
However, I am led to believe that they do not object to a petrol to petrol conversion. Get yourself a well connected middleman and go try your luck.
A lot of people are running modified/converted engines but at great personal risk. Your insurance stands canceled if it is found after an accident that you do not have an endorsement for the modification. Ride safe!

Ricky_63 · 28th March 2007, 10:45

Having read thru all those contributions......it seems like a very tedious & uphill task being on the right side of the law. Ironically if we just keep quiet & drive the car with a bigger engine, it seems just fine, except of course the risk of an accident & a void insurance claim & having to explain where the engine was sourced from.........so on & so forth.

My insurance guy suggested that just get the engine stamped with your old engine number (I am told it is possible), and just chill. No surveyor in any case looks at the engine number, just in case of an accident claim the engine number "MAYBE CHECKED" & will match the one on the RC so it's fine........

Unfortunately going by the rule book is asking for trouble & going against seems just fine.........sad situation, but reality all the same....So no transplant for me

Cheers

Ricky_63 · 28th March 2007, 10:50

Just wondering.......when the Himalyan Car Rally & other rallies / speed runs / track races happen in India, it is public knowledge that there is a class of cars running on modified engines. How come the authorities never bother about that ? Though such events are covered in the Media as well ???? Just curious or should I say ignorant !!!!!

Ricky_63 · 28th March 2007, 10:55

However the engine type is never noted in the RC so a change will also not be endorsed.

Hi Zappo,

The engine type is shown in the RC, my RC reads Engine No:..........
Chasis No.........Fuel type..........Engine CC............

So I guess the details are available on the RC....right ?

Thanks for enlightening me though on various issues

Cheers

esteem_lover · 28th March 2007, 13:20

Those kind of cars are meant to be towed or carried to the place of action & not driven on the roads.

27th March 2007, 16:18	#1
Ricky_63 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,880 Thanked: 520 Times View My Garage	Endorsement in Registration Certificate.....Needed ? Hi I was thinking of putting a (175 bhp MIVEC) on a Lancer, wanted to clarify if the REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE of a vehicle has to be endorsed / updated if one was to go for an engine transplant ? Would be nice to know if anyone on the Forum has got it done & if is it worth the time & effort to get it done. Any comments / suggestions are welcome. Cheers
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 16:23	#2
ported_head Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 2,381 Thanked: 21 Times	Err..It's illegal. You won't get any official endorsements.
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 16:51	#3
Ricky_63 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,880 Thanked: 520 Times View My Garage	Thanks for the reply, as I recall there used to be a lot of Diesel Engines being fitted on Ambassadors in the 80's & 90's, wonder what they did ?
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 17:15	#4
esteem_lover Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Madras/Py Posts: 7,556 Thanked: 513 Times View My Garage	i dont know why it is illegal. There are many people doing this & getting it endorsed in the RC too. But it should be endorsed in the RC for it to be a legal operation.
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 17:21	#5
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,369 Thanked: 17,301 Times	as far as i know, first you have to notify the RTO by filling up a form and paying the fee. then you have to again run the car through rto for inspection once the transplant is done and then they will endorse it in your certificate. long and tedious process considering our govt machinery but worth the effort again you will have to provide host of docs validating the buy and health of the engine Last edited by Jaggu : 27th March 2007 at 17:22.
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 17:46	#6
ported_head Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 2,381 Thanked: 21 Times	Ok, this is news! So you can get RTO endorsement in the RC book, if you have the patience to battle out the govt. machinery? Why would they endorse an engine that was never available here for the specific model? Or not even close in specifications? It's not a petrol to diesel conversion, no? And the model is not defunct yet.
	() Thanks

27th March 2007, 18:08	#8
revtech Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 1,992 Thanked: 39 Times View My Garage	i agree with ported head.i doubt they will accept it.and if you tell them about it and they dont your screwed even more.best is to stay put unless your sure of getting it done.i was thhinking of something similar but decided to forget bout getting it legalised as of now. Rev
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 00:47	#9
Zappo Team-BHP Support Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 5,907 Thanked: 2,746 Times	I think the rule is like this. Anything which is a standard noting in the RC will need to be endorsed if undergoes a change. So a change in the body color, fuel type etc gets endorsed. However the engine type is never noted in the RC so a change will also not be endorsed. Having said that, if the transplant results in the change of the fuel type of the car or the CC of the car that will have to be endorsed. One more thing which will definitely need to be endorsed is the engine number. The RC book has the engine number and the chassis number of your car. So if you put in a new engine with new engine number that will need to be endorsed. However there are lot of legal glitch in this IMO and hence may not prove to be so easy. Some points which come to mind are 1. If you put in an engine that is not made in india what happens to the homologation rules? RTA is not the authority to do such endorsements. 2. A new engine number means you have to prove that you legally purchased it. What is going to stop you from stealing a car and then cannibalising its parts? Where is the guarantee that this engine was not registered in someone else's car earlier? 3. RTA charges various state taxes based on the CC of the engine. For most states it is one-time. So if the engine you are putting in has a higher CC how do they now calculate the additional taxes to be recovered? Is it on a pro-rata basis or will they charge it on a retrospective basis? PS: And here is some more... 4. Insurance is also a factor of the engine size. What happens if you change it mid-way through the insured period? 5. It may also create a legal mess. Picture this. I buy two second hand cars on loan. The loan documents are made out against the birthmarks of the car. So that is the engine number and chassis number. Now afterwards I simply switch the engines of the two vehicles. All of a sudden I have altered the unalterable. I have changed the birthmark of the vehicles. And the lender is in a sticky wicket proving that these are the two vehicles he financed. Will RTA be willing to become a party to such potential legal conflicts? I think not... Last edited by Zappo : 28th March 2007 at 00:55.
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 01:08	#10
manikjeet Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: chandigarh Posts: 1,617 Thanked: 296 Times View My Garage	This is what i know so far you got to have the bill of the new engine to get on the RC and you also have to pay some fees and the car has to pass test i know many people running aftermarket engines under the hood it very rear that your engine gets check i am also running my car for 3 months now and you wouldn't have insurance
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 10:09	#11
jyobeb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madurai Posts: 1,009 Thanked: 705 Times	There is a specific fee for alterations and any modifications made to the vehicle like weight, length and color are supposed to be endorsed. Let me tell you how it is in Tamil Nadu. The RTO guys have banned conversion of petrol vehicles into diesel vehicles and have been very consistent about this. They allowed these conversions till about 2002. However, I am led to believe that they do not object to a petrol to petrol conversion. Get yourself a well connected middleman and go try your luck. A lot of people are running modified/converted engines but at great personal risk. Your insurance stands canceled if it is found after an accident that you do not have an endorsement for the modification. Ride safe! Last edited by jyobeb : 28th March 2007 at 10:14.
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 10:45	#12
Ricky_63 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,880 Thanked: 520 Times View My Garage	Having read thru all those contributions......it seems like a very tedious & uphill task being on the right side of the law. Ironically if we just keep quiet & drive the car with a bigger engine, it seems just fine, except of course the risk of an accident & a void insurance claim & having to explain where the engine was sourced from.........so on & so forth. My insurance guy suggested that just get the engine stamped with your old engine number (I am told it is possible), and just chill. No surveyor in any case looks at the engine number, just in case of an accident claim the engine number "MAYBE CHECKED" & will match the one on the RC so it's fine........ Unfortunately going by the rule book is asking for trouble & going against seems just fine.........sad situation, but reality all the same....So no transplant for me Cheers
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 10:50	#13
Ricky_63 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,880 Thanked: 520 Times View My Garage	Just wondering.......when the Himalyan Car Rally & other rallies / speed runs / track races happen in India, it is public knowledge that there is a class of cars running on modified engines. How come the authorities never bother about that ? Though such events are covered in the Media as well ???? Just curious or should I say ignorant !!!!!
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 10:55	#14
Ricky_63 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,880 Thanked: 520 Times View My Garage	However the engine type is never noted in the RC so a change will also not be endorsed. Hi Zappo, The engine type is shown in the RC, my RC reads Engine No:.......... Chasis No.........Fuel type..........Engine CC............ So I guess the details are available on the RC....right ? Thanks for enlightening me though on various issues Cheers
	() Thanks

28th March 2007, 13:20	#15
esteem_lover Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Madras/Py Posts: 7,556 Thanked: 513 Times View My Garage	Those kind of cars are meant to be towed or carried to the place of action & not driven on the roads.
	() Thanks