[sheelz]

Great post sir.

And nice to see a fellow "Hunter". O ya ya!!!

[am1m]

Very apprehensive about posting this, because it deals with 2 sacred institutions- religion itself and the Indian Armed forces. But it's a personal experience that I'd like to narrate and I'm hoping a mature forum like this can handle a bit of a contrarian opinion.

First off, I think the Indian Armed forces are outstanding institutions, all branches of them. I have no doubts that every soldier is extremely tolerant and professional. I envy the men and women in uniform and I know that I do not have the required discipline to live their path, I just wish I did and am very grateful for their service.

But I also think the general polarizing climate has had an effect even on the forces.

Coming to the experience. Apologies if I am deliberately vague about the details, but it is not my intention to cast anyone in a bad light. A few years ago I met a serving officer from one of the branches of the services. We were doing a shared outdoor activity over a period of time and we hit it off really well and became good friends in a very short time. Each time he was here on work in Bangalore, we would meet up and if by chance I happened to be at a location where he was posted, I would look him up. The only thing that made me slightly uncomfortable were his negative references to the followers of a particular religion. Nothing serious, but they were quite a few references and he insisted on painting all members in the same negative light so much so that he once got ticked off about a delivery person being from that religion! I did try to counter, but not very strongly. I really looked up to him and was in awe of his life in the forces, so didn't really make any strong arguments against his views.

We'd usually meet in a restaurant or a mess, but on one of his visits here, I insisted that he come home and have a meal and meet my wife. Now, I'm an atheist, but am the child of parents who were raised in two different religions. And my wife was raised in a different religion as well. So we have the holy books of 3 major religions kept together, given equal importance (though hardly ever opened!), in the same place at home. I could see very obviously that it was, well, a bit of a surprise for him when he saw that.

Now all I can say is that I have not heard from him after that. No messages or calls returned. Have confirmed with mutual friends that he's fine and not posted in a forward post or anything like that. It's been almost a year now. Could be that he just realized what a lousy conversationalist I am but I'm pretty sure it was something else.

Now before the inevitable flaming of this worthless 'civvie' starts , I am not trying to say this is a representative thing. Again, I reiterate, I am 100% sure that the vast, vast majority of the armed forces are tolerant and professional and that is the ethos that is encouraged there. I am 100% sure that even my buddy keeps his personal opinions separate from his duty. I have a few other friends in the forces as well and they all still tolerate me. And everyone can see that during any emergency, the wonderful members of our forces evacuate and help all those in need, irrespective of religion or any other differences.

All I'm providing is an anecdote from personal experience that seems to me (and I could be wrong) to show that a polarizing political climate can have an effect everywhere and we would be good to guard against that.

Apologies (especially to the OP, Hunter - your opening post was awesome and I loved each of your anecdotes) if it comes across as anything else, I do not have any other agenda here.

[Spaced Out]

Great thread. And much needed in these times.

As a fauji kid who grew up in the army of the 80s and 90s, I have very high regard for the fauj's unique approach to secularism. I was also of the generation that was taught the value of Unity in Diversity, in army schools across the country. We had classmates from all parts of the country including North East and I have never forgotten their horror stories of how they were treated as non-Indians outside of Cantonment (including being forced to pay foreigner fees at Qutub Minar).

Finally, for me the song that really gets me going is not the national anthem (which has its own place) but the Indian Army band's rendition of Sare Jahan Se Accha - here is the Beating the Retreat version below. Formerly known as Tarana-i-Hind, it has a very complex history mirroring our nation's own complexity and I for one love it.

http://youtu.be/MenD98Fr0zs

Originally Posted by wanderernomad

Did I add that the CHM was a muslim?
Fauz is about Men and believe me Men r never about religion.

Sir, in these times, people may misinterpret the significance of CHM's religion. Best to clarify!

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Lovely post! And extremely informative! Coming from a south-Indian family (inspite of) having a Navy officer in the ranks, the levels of ignorance about the armed forces and its unique nuances within the family is at times very unusual.

So if you wouldn't mind helping out answering a few queries and ignoring the stupidity / wrong notions if any of the questions turn out so, here's a few from my side.

1. I have heard/read of similar experiences from other army folks on and off the forum in the past, but never in the context of the Navy or the Air Force. Is this 'brotherhood' (for lack of a better term) more seen within the Army or does the Navy and Air Force too have similar situations?
2. How does the camaraderie work between the three divisions of the armed forces - while at duty and off-duty? To be honest - I have never seen or heard of different division based personnel mixing up as much as they do within each division. This is even personified in movies and series
3. How does the assignment happen to each regiment? Is it by virtue of some assessment (e.g. based on capability/domicile/etc.) or does one apply for a particular regiment? To extend that question with an example, would the Madras regiment be having a majority of Tamilians/south-indians?
4. How true are the issues shown in movies like 'Shaurya' and 'A Few Good Men'? In a world that is seemingly getting divided into 'pockets', how much of that a real problem in the current world of armed forces? If observed on the ground, how is it mitigated?
   

With all respect to ex-fauji's on this forum, the Indian Army is very different from the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force. A lot of what the author has said is very true for across the Army but holds most true for the infantry. That is the least technical branch of the Army and its intake of soldiers (jawans) remains mostly traditional, i.e. based on caste / community / region. For instance, Sikh Regiment and Sikh Light Infantry are two different regiments that draw on different caste groups.

Please note that this holds true for only soldiers not for the commissioned officers who are deemed to have no religion or community but that of their troops. Officers can apply for a specific regiment but their allocation is definitely not on the basis of their community. Their merit in their training (as recorded in NDA/IMA or OTA) will play a role in regiment assignments as even regiments have their own hierarchy within the army (welcome to the army!). There is an aspect of parent privilege - they can ask for their father's regiment but this is a knife that cuts both ways

The IN and IAF in contrast are highly technical services and their lower ranks come with a higher level of education and are further trained in the service. Please note that this is not to disparage any of the three services. An IAF lower rank officer is handling a multi-million dollar aircraft and his expertise will ensure that the pilot will fly safely. In contrast, the Army needs their troops to disregard their fear and follow their officers in battle.

To illustrate, in any army firing range you will see the following message in Hindi:

Sabse Pahle
Desh Ki Izzat
Unit Ki Izzat
Khud Ki Izzat

Finally, our armed forces have much to be praised for but collaborations across the three services remains a distant dream. That is a more complex story and is for those with more expertise than me to respond. All I will note is that to my knowledge, except for the joint command in Nicobar, none of the three services have a shared headquarter/operations areas like the US and Chinese theater command. So the Eastern Command HQ for Indian Army is Calcutta, for the IAF its Shillong and for the Navy in Vishakapatnam!

Joint training in the NDA and DSSC helps but really not the same thing. I believe the three service chiefs during Kargil were from the same NDA batch and that enabled better coordination but to me that really illustrates the problem.

The Army as the senior and most influential service definitely bears more responsibility for this. Sadly the recent crop of Army chiefs show no signs of improving the state of affairs. And while the Armed forces are definitely responsible in part for this, I also consider it to be part of the general myopia in Indian strategic thinking.

[wanderernomad]

Originally Posted by Spaced Out

Sir, in these times, people may misinterpret the significance of CHM's religion. Best to clarify!

. Well the CHM was the most insistent upon doing the Arti and was also the loudest. He knew more Durga aartis than all of us combined.

[Col Mehta]

Reading this took me to my serving days. Though I have had very different roles and responsibilities (mostly classified), I can easily relate to what it used to be - Brotherhood - irrespective of caste, faith, social standings, language, culture and so on. And that's what we lived for and some of us died for. My highest respect to those departed souls.

And when I look at what's happening in this beautiful country in the name of religion, it breaks my heart and have me think hard of when and how did we come to this madness. Damn you political goons! You have ruined my country and absolutely disrespected the blood spilled.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by Col Mehta

My highest respect to those departed souls.

And when I look at what's happening in this beautiful country in the name of religion, it breaks my heart and have me think hard of when and how did we come to this madness. Damn you political goons! You have ruined my country and absolutely disrespected the blood spilled.

Thanks for saying what many of us feel but hardly have words to put our thoughts. Writing more here would take the direction to politics and I don’t want that but it had to be said here Sir and for that, Thank you again.

[mbilung]

Originally Posted by Hunter3077

"Yes, you fool. He is a Madrassi - he belongs to the Madras Regiment". My smugness made a quick exit and I learned a lesson that day. An officer's religion is that of his men. Period.
!

Reading the above lines gave me goosebumps. More power to the sane military leadership of our country who sworn to protect it's citizens irrespective of caste and creed. My salute to you sir for sharing.

Jai Hind !

[dragracer567]

Dear Hunter3077,

First of all, thank you very much for this post. I was quite disillusioned in the past few months with the state of inter-religious affairs and extreme polarisation between the various communities. But this post reignited the vigour in my heart on the idea of India. This is the reason I believe in India, this is the reason I know that we as a country still hold the moral high ground despite the recent downward spiral in the inter-community relations.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

When Apache helicopter gunship was inducted into IAF, the aircraft was blessed by priests from all major religions

Thank you Smartcat for that photo, I am not exagerating when I say that I had tears in my eyes when I first saw it.

[sharatravan]

Great post!! I've always been in awe of our forces and hold them in very high regards for their services to our nation. This account only reinforces my conviction in the ethos of our forces.

All I can pray for is that the fabric of this great institution doesn't get maligned because of hyper nationalistic chest thumping, political subservience or changes in general community relations in the country.
While not representative of the entire community, the current geo-political environment does seem to be rubbing off on our forces negatively. I can only hope that the forces continue on their unbiased, righteous path unrelentingly, free of the misleading narratives set out by the political diaspora.

[Hunter3077]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for this beautiful piece of prose. Thank God one institution in the country stands up for what is right.

Thanks Sir. It is you guys who keep us going.

Originally Posted by wanderernomad

Very well written and spoken truly. Fauz way of life is how we all should live and not be restricted by petty narrow visions. Many of our Units are comprising of Coys from different "tribes" Dogras mixed with Gurjars or Sikhs or Rajputs. Yet they all live and work like one. I remember a time when during a CI contact while rushing out forgot to do the traditional aarti. It was only a few kms into the March seeing the sullen and dejected faces, was the question poped. Needless to say how the next 10 mins were spent. Did I add that the CHM was a muslim?
Fauz is about Men and believe me Men r never about religion.

Jai Hind Sir. Wonderful. Till the time we have people like these, we will continue to be formidable and Strong.

Originally Posted by WhiteSierra

Great post, Thank you for your service sir. We have Army men in our family too. My paternal grandfather was a Doctor in British - Indian army during world war-2.

Great to know that. More power to you.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Lovely post, wish this post was read by every one and everybody in our country and outside. The defence forces are the last bastion where everyone is treated same irrespective of other parameters. The times we are living in desperately needs write up like these to be in the public domain. The essence of the whole country can be summed up in your write up and for that, thank you

Thank you. This is such a morale booster. Overwhelmed.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Lovely post! And extremely informative! Coming from a south-Indian family (inspite of) having a Navy officer in the ranks, the levels of ignorance about the armed forces and its unique nuances within the family is at times very unusual.

1. I have heard/read of similar experiences from other army folks on and off the forum in the past, but never in the context of the Navy or the Air Force. Is this 'brotherhood' (for lack of a better term) more seen within the Army or does the Navy and Air Force too have similar situations?
   
   Navy and Air force are equipment intensive forces. While the camaraderie remains, probably the man to man contact is much more pronounced in the army where the men are willing to risk their lives at your single command.
   
2. How does the camaraderie work between the three divisions of the armed forces - while at duty and off-duty? To be honest - I have never seen or heard of different division based personnel mixing up as much as they do within each division. This is even personified in movies and series
   
   There is jointsmanship. But I would say, still a long way to go.
   
3. How does the assignment happen to each regiment? Is it by virtue of some assessment (e.g. based on capability/domicile/etc.) or does one apply for a particular regiment? To extend that question with an example, would the Madras regiment be having a majority of Tamilians/south-indians?
   
   There are Pure units which are like the ones you mention. Madras, Bihar, MAHAR, Rajput, Dogra and many more. And there are mixed units which comprise all regions, religions and caste.
   
4. How true are the issues shown in movies like 'Shaurya' and 'A Few Good Men'? In a world that is seemingly getting divided into 'pockets', how much of that a real problem in the current world of armed forces? If observed on the ground, how is it mitigated?
   
   Most of it is fictional.
   

Originally Posted by Sanjivvohra

Lovely post, Hunter! Being an alumni of NDA (the institute, not the political alliance!)
The Armed Forces are still maintaining the ethos that have stood the test of time and my salute to the current lot of officers for ensuring the bedrock of ethos is not diluted. Jai Hind!!

Jai Hind Sir. Thank you.

Originally Posted by rj22

Great thread sir!

Really looking forward to being a part of this wonderful organization.

Welcome to this wonderful organisation.

Originally Posted by InsaneSpeed

This is absolutely brilliant!! The thoughts are well echoed in every word you have written. These are the beliefs that are instilled in every soldier irrespective of his caste and creed.My uncle retired from the Army as a Lt.Colonel and his son (my cousin) is now with the NSG. It was a indeed a proud moment for us to witness his passing out parade from OTA, Chennai. My Uncle had participated in numerous counter insurgency operations while posted J&K and every time he would mention that there is The Almighty and His Men who has his back always. That's what kept him going always.

Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by chennai-indian

Beautifully written. I have family in the army and have been to army bases many times and have seen the Sarv Dharm Sthals.

Wonderful.

Originally Posted by vamsi.kona

I don't have much to add apart from thanking you for this wonderful post and all the men/women out there in the uniform who have made such a thread possible. I heard many times that a soldier's willingness to give away his life may not be coming from patriotism alone but from the brotherhood for his/her fellow group members and the commanding officer. Also the war cry of every regiment might be like a dose of extra energy. Does every regiment has it's own war cry or some of them don't have?

Almost every unit has its own War cry, and Unit slogan. Its a matter of pride for each soldier.

Originally Posted by ishlinea7260

Great thread Hunter!
As a proud grandson of an Indian Army soldier I can understand your post

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mik

This is so beautiful!
I grew up on a smattering of Army Schools and Convents

I wish all country-men learn from what the Army practices - day in day out.

Amen!

Originally Posted by sheelz

Great post sir.

And nice to see a fellow "Hunter". O ya ya!!!

O Ye Ye. Get in touch.

Originally Posted by am1m

Very apprehensive about posting this, because it deals with 2 sacred institutions- religion itself and the Indian Armed forces. But it's a personal experience that I'd like to narrate and I'm hoping a mature forum like this can handle a bit of a contrarian opinion

But I also think the general polarizing climate has had an effect even on the forces.

Unfortunately true to some extent. But yes, cannot be generalised.

Originally Posted by Spaced Out

Great thread. And much needed in these times.

As a fauji kid who grew up in the army of the 80s and 90s, I have very high regard for the fauj's unique approach to secularism. I was also of the generation that was taught the value of Unity in Diversity, in army schools across the country. We had classmates from all parts of the country including North East and I have never forgotten their horror stories of how they were treated as non-Indians outside of Cantonment (including being forced to pay foreigner fees at Qutub Minar).

Finally, for me the song that really gets me going is not the national anthem (which has its own place) but the Indian Army band's rendition of Sare Jahan Se Accha - here is the Beating the Retreat version below. Formerly known as Tarana-i-Hind, it has a very complex history mirroring our nation's own complexity and I for one love it.

Wow. Very comprehensive. Couldn't have answered it better myself.

Originally Posted by Col Mehta

Reading this took me to my serving days. Though I have had very different roles and responsibilities (mostly classified), I can easily relate to what it used to be - Brotherhood - irrespective of caste, faith, social standings, language, culture and so on. And that's what we lived for and some of us died for. My highest respect to those departed souls.

And when I look at what's happening in this beautiful country in the name of religion, it breaks my heart and have me think hard of when and how did we come to this madness. Damn you political goons! You have ruined my country and absolutely disrespected the blood spilled.

Things will hopefully change for the better sir. Regards and Jai Hind.

Originally Posted by mbilung

Reading the above lines gave me goosebumps. More power to the sane military leadership of our country who sworn to protect it's citizens irrespective of caste and creed. My salute to you sir for sharing.

Jai Hind !

Jai Hind. Thank you.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Dear Hunter3077,

First of all, thank you very much for this post. I was quite disillusioned in the past few months with the state of inter-religious affairs and extreme polarisation between the various communities. But this post reignited the vigour in my heart on the idea of India. This is the reason I believe in India, this is the reason I know that we as a country still hold the moral high ground despite the recent downward spiral in the inter-community relations.
Thank you Smartcat for that photo, I am not exagerating when I say that I had tears in my eyes when I first saw it.

Keep the hope alive. We are a great nation. Things are not lost yet.

Originally Posted by sharatravan

Great post!! I've always been in awe of our forces and hold them in very high regards for their services to our nation. This account only reinforces my conviction in the ethos of our forces.

All I can pray for is that the fabric of this great institution doesn't get maligned because of hyper nationalistic chest thumping, political subservience or changes in general community relations in the country.
While not representative of the entire community, the current geo-political environment does seem to be rubbing off on our forces negatively. I can only hope that the forces continue on their unbiased, righteous path unrelentingly, free of the misleading narratives set out by the political diaspora.

Yes. Armed forces will continue to be unbiased, apolitical and neutral. Jai Hind.

[R2D2]

Kudos to you for this thread.

My family has served 3 generations in the Defence Services and this thread highlights what it boils down to - a deep love for the motherland and its people regardless of what faith they follow.

[AyushB]

Originally Posted by Hunter3077

When I was a first termer in NDA (not the political one; this is the far more prestigious National Defence Academy), I overheard two Drill Ustaad speaking to each other about the new Colonel Training of the academy. "Madrassi hai, pata nahi kya kya changes ho jayega training mei", one of them mumbled in a forlorn tone. Being a South Indian myself, I wondered why this particular emphasis on the Officers’ regional base was to be discussed. I soon forgot about it, caught up with the hectic routine of the academy. One day, while being seated in the academy, I saw a smartly turned out Sikh Colonel striding on to the stage to address the cadets. I shot a quick question to my neighbour, "Who's he?" I got a response in return, "Colonel Training". "No way, the Colonel Training is a Madrassi, not a Sikh officer," I said in all my confident and smug tone. "Yes, you fool. He is a Madrassi - he belongs to the Madras Regiment". My smugness made a quick exit and I learned a lesson that day. An officer's religion is that of his men. Period.

Thank you sir for the wonderful post. I have no connection to the army nor do I know anybody personally who has served in the army, but this post and the whole thread bought tears to my eyes.
Given the turbulent and intolerant times we live in this was a great reminder that there are still such institutions in this country
Thanks once again, for this post and your service and thanks to everyone who face impossible conditions to protect us. Jai Hind.

[Hunter3077]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Kudos to you for this thread.

My family has served 3 generations in the Defence Services and this thread highlights what it boils down to - a deep love for the motherland and its people regardless of what faith they follow.

Yes. Agree. There will be exceptions of course, but they are far and few.

Originally Posted by AyushB

Thank you sir for the wonderful post. I have no connection to the army nor do I know anybody personally who has served in the army, but this post and the whole thread bought tears to my eyes.
Given the turbulent and intolerant times we live in this was a great reminder that there are still such institutions in this country
Thanks once again, for this post and your service and thanks to everyone who face impossible conditions to protect us. Jai Hind.

Jai Hind. Feel overwhelmed by the response. Thank you.

[vikasshu]

If there is an institution that combines all of India in one thread then we are talking about Indian Armed Forces. I ardently follow Lt. Gen Syed Ata Hasnain (Retd) who still fondly remembers his Badri Vishal being a Garhwal rifle soldier.

I had a friend whose brother was an officer in a medium regiment which used to recruit from hinterlands of UP and mainly brahmins. Therefore his brother even being a Panjabi, used to wear Janeyu (sacred thread) with his fellow men.

My office colleague who is an ex army officer from Kanpur, and was from Grenadiers, had his fellow men coming from Qaimkhani Rajputs.

And I would like to end my post with this beautiful video. If time permits then please watch the complete video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yi-Ry6d9-g

[v1p3r]

A beautiful and informative thread, and a rare one that has all posts in agreement. Thank you sir, for doing what you do, so that we may do what we may.

Originally Posted by Hunter3077

Keep the hope alive. We are a great nation. Things are not lost yet.

Thank you for reminding us of this.