[Jesse_Mach]

In a country of a billion and half, HOPE is a major factor for more than 50% of people. So ads from these institutions are easy to sell to people who are looking for a way out. This is a sad reality with most of the folks and there is no escaping that.
That being said the parents and kids should also realize that there are other ways to move ahead in life and IIT's/IIM's are not the end of it all.
But as always, one should give it his/her best shot while at it, but look ahead in case it doesn't work out.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Average students having a decent IT career is a norm, how are you comparing it with Bill Gates and Ambani?

This is certainly not a norm anymore. One has to be "At the right place and the Right Time" to make average work. Gone are the days when one could a certain position by having x number of experience. The pyramid is becoming a bottle as far as IT is concerned. And I am not talking only about money alone.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Mach

This is certainly not a norm anymore. One has to be "At the right place and the Right Time" to make average work. Gone are the days when one could a certain position by having x number of experience. The pyramid is becoming a bottle as far as IT is concerned. And I am not talking only about money alone.

Not really. As an employer myself, and I am also in touch with many other employers, we still hire average students from 3rd or 4th tier colleges. Many of them turn out to be good engineers after a few months of training.

The situation in large companies could be different, they have HR policies that are often restrictive to filter out average colleges. For every IT giant, there are 1000 small IT firms that hire from anywhere they can.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Not really. As an employer myself, and I am also in touch with many other employers, we still hire average students from 3rd or 4th tier colleges. Many of them turn out to be good engineers after a few months of training.

The situation in large companies could be different, they have HR policies that are often restrictive to filter out average colleges. For every IT giant, there are 1000 small IT firms that hire from anywhere they can.

There is still a somewhat level playing field for entry level positions. The college/university brand/network plays a huge role for leadership positions. Most of these positions are filled up through invitation and network referrals - very different from entry level hiring where you conduct a bunch of tests and pick those who qualify. You read the short bio of any big shot and the last line typically mentions a reputed college/university - at least something like "executive MBA" from XYZ. Of course, there will be outliers but a good college comes very handy as you get to the top the food chain.

I think it's fair that most parents want their children to be in a place of "good potential." Being surrounded by smart ambitious students increases the probability of that "potential". No point arguing against this. The trouble is that our country doesn't have too many "places of good potential" (aka centres of excellence) to diversify outside of engineering, etc. As a parent, I would be very happy if there are more institutions of reputation in other fields other than ENGG/LAW/MEDICINE/MBA, etc.

[binand]

Originally Posted by hondatoyotafan

I do not know about the IIT network but my present workplace has a closed group of IIM-A alums who garner a lot of senior manager and director positions thanks to the country head who is a fellow IIM-A alumni.

Originally Posted by androdev

The college/university brand/network plays a huge role for leadership positions. Most of these positions are filled up through invitation and network referrals - very different from entry level hiring

This is exactly what I meant below when I said "benefits from alumni network". There are any number of job openings that are reported only on closed groups (college-provided alumni platforms, email/linkedin groups...) and are filled quickly enough without involving placement agencies and the like (that agencies charge about 15% of CTC per person hired makes this a cost-effective option for the firm also and hence is encouraged usually). Internships & projects are also easier to come by. So are sales leads, collaborations, introductions...

Originally Posted by binand

There is a second reason which most people in early stages of their careers don't realise - the alumni network and the benefits to be derived from it.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you can't hire from the top 10% of IIT, go to 10% of the NIT, and after that 10% of the 3rd tier college.

+1.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Instead compare the top 20% from IIT with top 20% from non-IIT. Then you won't see much difference.

Top 20% of IIT (and BITS / NIT / IIIT etc.) will be like top 1% of average colleges.

We conduct online exams for hiring for entry level engineers (college is not a criteria). These are stats we see.

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

As a student of class 12th.... another huge scam is integrated courses offered especially by Chaitanya Narayana schools....But in reality they don't teach at al...
Since they don't teach, I have to spend extra time watching lectures on YouTube...

This is the primary benefit. I think Narayana is bad in general; even then probably regular tests and peer group would have motivated few students like you to do self-study. Not many students do that.

[Piyush Kanthak]

This is the primary benefit. I think Narayana is bad in general; even then probably regular tests and peer group would have motivated few students like you to do self-study. Not many students do that.

Nope, regular tests just burdens us, they conduct test every Saturday, yes I do understand that regular tests will benefit us, but what's the use? They complete one chapter in one day, force us to stay till 5 PM, and expects us to get full marks all the time.
If we get less marks, they pull us out, abuse our parents, abuse us and get physical.
This demotivates the students.

Further to do self study, we need time as. One lecture on YouTube is at least 1.30 hours long, we don't get time to practice afterwards too.

[fordday]

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

Nope, regular tests just burdens us, they conduct test every Saturday, yes I do understand that regular tests will benefit us, but what's the use? They complete one chapter in one day, force us to stay till 5 PM, and expects us to get full marks all the time.
If we get less marks, they pull us out, abuse our parents, abuse us and get physical.
This demotivates the students.

Further to do self study, we need time as. One lecture on YouTube is at least 1.30 hours long, we don't get time to practise afterwards too

These are horror stories to say the least.

I always tell my son to do a good job and put more effort in whatever he likes to do. No compulsion of doing anything what others are doing. Only thing that matters to me is knowing and understanding things deeply, like our Samurai would say every time.

I would be happy if he just plays tabla nicely rather than going to an IIT.

His guitar teacher is a prime example. Teacher was forced to do his Engg and join an IT company. Then he resigned and found his call. He does music gigs all over the south and leads a comfortable life with his family.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Fear of what? That their life is over if they don't get into IIT? I am curious, when you finally entered the work force and encountered non-IITian peers, what did you think about your earlier fear?

Didn't take so long.
In the first year of IIT itself we understood that the word operates usually contrary to what our parents think/feel/advise.


To be frank, I see that parenting (my observation in India) is associated with negatives. Right from the point when infant/toddlers learns to act independent - it is barraged with a volley of NOs. Later these NOs require a threat, still later requires fear. And that is what governs the lives of the children till they become completely independent and explore the world with their own lenses. "Explore the world" attitude - this is something sorely missing in Indian parenting.

This is what leads to fear mongering and rise of shops like Byjus and FIITJEEs of the world.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

Nope, regular tests just burdens us, they conduct test every Saturday, yes I do understand that regular tests will benefit us, but what's the use? They complete one chapter in one day, force us to stay till 5 PM, and expects us to get full marks all the time.
If we get less marks, they pull us out, abuse our parents, abuse us and get physical.

I stand corrected, Narayana is horrible (not just bad).

I did IIT prep in 90s and my kids did that few years back, this culture is beyond imaginable.

These tests + peer group + good teachers were the primary benefit of coaching. Small % of class is usually motivated; benefit of that peer group is amazing.

[raghu13uk]

Originally Posted by ppc_rgs

Cuemath had the audacity to offer coding class for grade I students. Really?

We took sample class for my 7 year old son. It was a game with simple drag-and-drop codelike instructions to move the characters. Noted down the URL of the content. Found out it is a free site for which CueMath is charging around 20k+ for a month or so.
We didn't subscribe to them. Later explained that site to my son and he just completed everything in that site almost by himself.

A month later, my neighbor's kid got a nice shiny certificate as "Game Developer" by paying 20k which was posted as status on their WhatsApp.

[ajayc123]

Instructor led education is over rated and expensive, while the typical teachers that you get in the neighbourhood are often not very good teachers.

Platforms like udemy, coursera often have courses, by many of the world's best teachers at 0.0x of the cost that you would normally pay for a similar classroom course. And the bonus, is that you can request money back, if you don't like after you start the course.

The way human minds are, you barely learn the tip of the iceberg during any such courses, and the real learning happens by solving hard real world problems over a prolonged periods of years.

[love_travelling]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

[...]
I have been interviewing students for past decade, and I always ask them to explain OOPS concept like they have to do to their parents or grand parent, and they fail horribly because the only way they can explain is text book definition.

The key missing ingredient in our education (both Schools & Colleges) is the teaching of (and lack of) critical thinking and analysis.

Students passing out are great if a problem is well defined, something they've solved in the past. Then they can just 'vomit' out the answer. Give a new problem and they are lost.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Despite all this averageness, within 3 years of graduating, I was working along with many IITians in one of the most premium tech company in US, the one that invented Unix, C, C++, etc. A guy with IIT B.Tech + US MS + Phd worked next to me, doing very similar work. I had a 3rd tier BE and nothing more.

I have to disagree with this. I too am a grad from Tier 2/3 engineering college for my Bachelors. After that I ended up in a top 15 US university for my Masters program where a lot of IIT grads were my classmates studying for their Masters or Doctoral studies. Day in and day out, I could clearly see that they had significantly better Math and Science fundamentals. They could ace some very difficult Operations Research course assignments with barely any effort while the rest of us peasants from normal engineering colleges had to struggle for hours. I guess to see their difference you also need to be working in something that is challenging.

Originally Posted by androdev

Most institutions benefit more from their rigorous selection process and co-living of bright ambitious people than the so-called faculty and academic programs.

100% true. In general how we turn out to be as a human being is all about the surroundings we grow up in.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Theyota

I have to disagree with this. I too am a grad from Tier 2/3 engineering college for my Bachelors. After that I ended up in a top 15 US university for my Masters program where a lot of IIT grads were my classmates studying for their Masters or Doctoral studies. Day in and day out, I could clearly see that they had significantly better Math and Science fundamentals.

You are talking about something else, so how can you disagree with me?

I was talking about how work experience is a great equalizer with respect to IT industry. You are talking about academic performance in a university. The math/science fundamentals rarely come into picture while designing software, where field experience trumps everything else.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by Samurai

You are talking about something else, so how can you disagree with me?

I was talking about how work experience is a great equalizer with respect to IT industry. You are talking about academic performance in a university. The math/science fundamentals rarely come into picture while designing software, where field experience trumps everything else.

If I and an IIT grad, both apply for jobs flipping burgers in McDonald's, yes our experience will be a great equalizer immediately after our 2 hour job training. But, if I and him have a job writing a guidance control algorithm for a rocket, I think the IIT grad would show that his algorithm would take the rocket to its destination in fewer tries than mine.

Originally Posted by Samurai

The math/science fundamentals rarely come into picture while designing software, where field experience trumps everything else.

I am sure you know that there is lot more software than the software that does not require math and science. In fact the software that makes it possible to write many software requires insane amount of math.