[whitewing]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

You are going to deploy knowledge across both jobs which could be the competitive edge a company has.

Originally Posted by Samurai

No, what you cite is very rare. That is like a programmer in Swiggy working as Zomato programmer at night. Even the dumbest programmer will know that is not a right thing to do, and that it is unethical. What usually happens is they will use the same skills in unrelated industries. If you are an android developer, you could be developing food delivery app during day and banking app during night. How is that working for competition?

In the event there is some special knowledge applied (across employers). The difficulty lies in identifying the overlap and ensuring copyright protected code does not end up becoming a derivative work, opening up the case for copyright infringement.
In such cases logically that responsibility should rest on the shoulders of the moonlighter.
In the unlikely event this goes to court, I'm not sure from a legal stand point who will have to bear the consequences - the moonlighter or the infringing employer (who would not have any prior inkling of the infringement).

Originally Posted by Samurai

What Wipro/Infy is saying is not honest. Because they are so huge, they are in every industry. So, if an employee moonlights for any industry, they claim the employee works for competition. But the employee is doing insurance software maintenance doing day, him working for banking industry at night shouldn't be considered working for competitor, just because Wipro/Infy also has a division for banking.

Absolutely, they try to have their way - just because they have leverage, the money and the ability to bulldoze over small hurdles.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by binand

These non-compete clauses are illegal too. Companies get away with this sort of stuff because nobody questions them.

They aren't illegal actually. They are followed throughout the world, infact, I am subject to such a clause in my current company. However, there is a nuance - my employer is liable to pay me the salary offered by the competitor for the remaining non-compete period (while not employing me) if my current employer triggers the non-compete clause to prevent me from taking up that job. So, my current employer can't make me sit at home without pay and hence have to be really careful and considerate when they decide to trigger the non-compete clause.

[binand]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

They aren't illegal actually. They are followed throughout the world, infact, I am subject to such a clause in my current company. However, there is a nuance - my employer is liable to pay me the salary offered by the competitor for the remaining non-compete period (while not employing me) if my current employer triggers the non-compete clause to prevent me from taking up that job.

Yes - your employer seems to have been advised correctly. Basically you have a fundamental right to practice your profession or trade. The employer cannot put an unreasonable restriction on that. Here they offer you compensation which makes it palatable.

My point was that a clause like "after you leave us, you cannot take up employment with a competitor of ours for N years" that prevents you from taking up employment with no recourse is illegal.

Wikipedia has a decent summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

[vj_torqueaddict]

I understand why companies like infy TCS are against moonlighting. They are adept to a management style which is inline with factory workers. Punch in - punch out sort of thing. Sadly IT industry is NOT meant to run that way. It needs a management style which is inline with knowledge workers. Most startups and unicorns have already moved to knowledge worker management style and it works great!

Infy TCS on the other hand will evolve very slowly as usual. My take is as long as individuals don't affect their current work it should be okay. Someone had pointed out that infy was founded as a result of moonlighting. I am not sure how much of it is true. But I can confirm Mindtree was founded as a result of moonlighting and many more companies for sure. In my present org it's completely okay to moonlight. Infact my colleague has started an ice cream shop and we all encourage his business. Afaik he works out from the shop many a times. It's all good.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vj_torqueaddict

Someone had pointed out that infy was founded as a result of moonlighting.

Here is some hint. Infosys was created by NRN, but NRN couldn't join it for nearly a year because Patni didn't release him. So he ended up being the 4th employee. Are we to believe he strictly refrained from working for Infosys during that period?

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by Samurai

... What usually happens is they will use the same skills in unrelated industries. If you are an android developer, you could be developing food delivery app during day and banking app during night. How is that working for competition?
...

In this case, it is fair but is this the norm or the exception ? I am not from the software industry, so do not know enough to say more.

Originally Posted by binand

Any company that lists its "employee knowledge" as a competitive edge is already heading towards disaster. These employees holding knowledge can resign, die unexpectedly, or simply be poached - and where does that leave your competitive edge? Every CEO will see this; if not their advisors - VCs or management consultants or board members - have a duty to tell them.
....

Well, the employee is question can be working on a part of a much bigger project and will have access to the knowledge of the whole project including problems faced, the solutions, etc. and this knowledge can very well be used in another organisation.

My work area is in the auto component industry and new product development involves a lot of sensitive information, along with future product plans, etc. We cannot have one of our software engineers writing code for our in development product and at the same time 'moonlighting' with my competitor and doing a similar thing there.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

In this case, it is fair but is this the norm or the exception ? I am not from the software industry, so do not know enough to say more.

It is the norm. People in IT rarely have special knowledge that cannot be shared. Such rare folks will be at quite a high level and wouldn't try moonlighting.

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

Well, the employee is question can be working on a part of a much bigger project and will have access to the knowledge of the whole project including problems faced, the solutions, etc. and this knowledge can very well be used in another organisation.

What is wrong in this? Experienced engineers are hired exactly because they have faced and solved plenty of challenges in the given domain. Confidential information is anyway covered by NDA.

For example, vendors often work with competing customers, while having lots of exposure to confidential information. A parts supplier could supply Toyota, Hyundai and Maruti. They are trusted to keep sensitive information compartmented, and they do.

[neil.jericho]

As someone who has worked in the Indian IT services industry for a decade, of which over half my time was with Wipro, I have a perspective that is different from most TBHPians.

a. Firstly, you have to understand Wipro's DNA. From day 1, each employee learns about the "Spirit of Wipro". It is based on three traits
- Intensity to win,
- Act with sensitivity and
- Unyielding Integrity.
These are not empty words pasted on the walls of its development centers, by the HR and Ops teams. It is a culture system that is practiced in the organization, from the top down. Whatever else one might say about the company, you cannot take away its DNA. Every Wipro employee knows that integrity is sacrosanct.

b. To the best of my recollection, an employment contract with Wipro, does expressly state that you will not be working with its competitors.

c. Most people mistakenly assume that a Wipro employee who is moonlighting, is probably working for Infosys, CTS or TCS, during the hours when he is not at office. Im pretty sure that 99% of IT employees are smart enough to not do that. The reason being dual payments to the provident fund etc, can easily be tracked by employers. Also, background checks are done by companies before / during / after hiring.

d. I have met a young consultant working for another massive IT organization, who does some freelance work for Middle East based clients, in his spare time. There is no overlap between his employer and the companies that he works for. However, he is using his professional skillset, in hours outside his professional working hours. This seems to be the direction that most moonlighters take.

e. To me, the big questions are
- Were these employees freelancing in their spare time, based on professional knowledge that they had acquired in their day job, which could be a breach of contract?
- How did Wipro find out that these employees were moonlighting?

f. In the grand scheme of things, this news of moonlighting by Wipro employees, is much ado about nothing. The company has much (much much much) bigger challenges, that needed to be addressed a few quarters ago. This news seems to be a convenient distraction that will swerve the narrative from what needs to be out there.

[swiftnfurious]

We'll, I have few questions and hope someone will clear it.

1. How can one employee take up two jobs ? Anyone who's more than 1-2 years of experience needs to submit their recent relieving letter when they take up a new job. Have these guys who moonlighted, submit a fake relieving letter?

2. How did Wipro find about such cases?

3. I heard of employees taking up freelancing during the WFH and contracting the work to freelancers further, taking a cut from those work.

4. I also heard such employees showed a lack of enthusiasm in the current work and contributions had a significant difference in the current company. The discussion revolved how they would join calls from home, never turn on their camera and always are on mute. Usually no responses when questions are directed to them during calls either

5. I believe employees should be allowed to do what's they like during their off-hours, which excludes doing anything that's not related to current companies competition products. Someone who's it IT could do stand up comedy/live singing in some pubs should be ok as long as there's no conflicts of interest.

[ninjatalli]

Honestly moonlighting (to me) falls in the grey area and it is perfectly fine by me. You can do it legally informing your employer of the additional 'side hack' that you are doing off-work hours (e.g. someone doing volunteering work) or you could do it without informing them at the risk of being booted out when you get caught.

One could also put efforts in an area of opportunity s/he would cash on in coming years if it works out = generally how many startup ideas originate. Once the startup firm becomes mainstream, then the founder's profile is blown up saying how he "started" this firm while still working for XYZ firm and no one ever blames him then.

Friends of mine (about 1.5 decades ago) had their day job in Wipro but were constantly working on their mobile software product (in the e-learning/training space on Blackberry mobiles) over the weekends. The work didn't conflict with their daily jobs (although if they were caught, Wipro would have booted them out for sure). Once they had a working prototype, they pitched the product to the only company leadership they had access to - WIPRO. And Wipro was their first client too. Today they are an award winning company with products across different industries/areas.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are we to believe he strictly refrained from working for Infosys during that period?

+1

[poloman]

In my college days, used to see slew of depressing movies about joblessness. The hero will be 'pada likha' but stonewalled in life with 'no vacancy' boards everywhere. The main job providers were Govt and PSUs then. Now really glad that we are discussing about people taking up 2-3 jobs.

I think we are being ungrateful to IT industry by painting them as villains in the whole story. Of course they pay less to freshers, but they have made so many successful careers as well. So many average joes from relatively modest backgrounds could pursue aspirational careers and even migrate to developed countries.

Fresher's salary will be low due to the demand supply scenario for engineers in our country. But what I feel important is getting a path or break in your career during early days. One need to check where they are after 10 years.

Some will be pursuing multiple jobs just for their passion. I have no problem with this. But many simply cheat the way out for more money and due to the fact that they can easily do this due to WFH.
Let us not misguide the new generation to become woke, lazy and disloyal employees who care only about themselves and money.
This will be equivalent to killing the golden goose.

[binand]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

Well, the employee is question can be working on a part of a much bigger project and will have access to the knowledge of the whole project including problems faced, the solutions, etc. and this knowledge can very well be used in another organisation.

IMO that does not give the organisation the right to control what the employee does beyond the 40 or 45 hours/week that they are contracted for. Exerting such control is detrimental because the underlying message is that "we don't trust you".

The employee could very well resign and take their specialised knowledge with them to a competitor and the company cannot do anything about that. Or rather, all measures that companies adopt to do prevent this scenario can be equally well adapted to cover the double job scenario as well - NDAs, retainer payments, gardening leave clauses etc.

In summary - if you don't want your employees to moonlight, pay them well. Treat them as partners and not as adversaries.

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

1. How can one employee take up two jobs ? Anyone who's more than 1-2 years of experience needs to submit their recent relieving letter when they take up a new job. Have these guys who moonlighted, submit a fake relieving letter?

Not every company verifies such documents. In fact, precisely due to the fact that companies do not issue relieving letters, experience certificates and other such documents as a punitive / vindictive measure I for one do not place much trust on such docs. If the candidate fits my role and I'm satisfied of their antecedents and drivers I employ them.

[srini1785]

I come from an engineering industry background and its not all that uncommon for employees in blue collar jobs to have more than one source of income. I've known people using their skill to do some odd jobs over the weekend. Some have unrelated business in the name of their spouses, work as house brokers, One was even a temple priest after office hours. Not to forget that most of the workers in the shop floor were from an Agricultural background and still had ties to lands in their native villages/towns. These were generally known to the management and was tolerated.

The attitude generally changes for White collars who are expected to maintain Single employment. However, there were these odd employees who did have some kind of hidden interest in one of their friends business. These were hard to ascertain and such employees were gradually sidelined.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

... I'm pretty sure that 99% of IT employees are smart enough to not do that. The reason being dual payments to the provident fund etc, can easily be tracked by employers.

When someone is working for a competitor, he/she should at least have the good sense to get all payments in cash. We can't teach black money basics to everyone now can we?.

[iamahunter]

Point being : Why does your employee need moonlighting?

A person will be happy to spend time with his family/friends or follow a hobby once the working hours are over. No one like to slog extra hours.

Now, if an employee is following his hobby and earning extra, something like photography, choreography, stock market investment or doing some creative work or even developing some software on his own, etc. Is this "moonlighting" or "following your passion - (some which the corporate industry encourages)".

A person is billed for the work he does/hours he completes, an FTE for 8 hours and a contractor as per the contract/agreement.

Beyond that a person should be free to follow his will. If he's doing 2 jobs and paying the taxes correctly, should it bother?

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by srini1785

When someone is working for a competitor, he/she should at least have the good sense to get all payments in cash. We can't teach black money basics to everyone now can we?.

This is exactly where the whole scenario of TCS / CTS / Infy / Wipro / Mindtree employees moonlighting for the direct competition, falls flat! It may be how the industry and / or the media is conveniently spinning it but its impossible in reality.

Does anyone really expect these multi billion dollar companies to have off the books cash payments that will be made to special freelance employees who do not have ID cards, access to their buildings, a contract, access privileges to secured networks, company laptops etc? How do they balance their books before each audited quarterly financial report gets created?