[meerkat]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

.... Rama-female is not said the same way as Rama-male....

Not having a clue about Tamil, I didn't get it. Is it possible to elaborate a bit in writing? That could even indicate some equivalents in other Indian languages too.

.... I do wish that English script was phonetic! But perhaps it would then lose a lot of its weird charm.

Other languages have their own 'weird charms' too! -- Like the curious absence of the neuter gender in Hindi (or in French ...) and its unfathomable (for me) consequences. :-)
.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by meerkat

Not having a clue about Tamil, I didn't get it. Is it possible to elaborate a bit in writing? That could even indicate some equivalents in other Indian languages too.

Nothing to do with Tamil per se I think: Rama as a female name is pronounced ruh-ma. The TV actress Rama Vij is an example.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by meerkat

Not having a clue about Tamil, I didn't get it. Is it possible to elaborate a bit in writing? That could even indicate some equivalents in other Indian languages too.

Male, first syllable is longer; female, second syllable is longer, basically. There is some more subtlety.

I don't know how noopster's actress's name is said, but I suspect it's the answer

Other languages have their own 'weird charms' too! -- Like the curious absence of the neuter gender in Hindi (or in French ...) and its unfathomable (for me) consequences. :-)

Thank goodness English does not assign gender to inanimate things! Except for a handfull of irregulars, it is fairly simple on conjugating verbs and declining nouns.

Our pronouns were pretty simple (at least until recently ) too. A friend once told me that, in German, they are highly complex, highly irregular, and simply have to be memorised.

There is not really a neutral gender in English, not for animate things, at least. He, she or it... people don't like being called 'it,' and 'they' has tuned into a linguistic mess that never sounds right. This isn't new. I read that writers have complained the absence of a personal 'it' for centuries!

[tilt]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

*SNIP* Rama-female is not said the same way as Rama-male. *SNIP*

I do wish that English script was phonetic! But perhaps it would then lose a lot of its weird charm.

Female: ramaaa. Male: raaamaa

When I have to use English transliteration for a local language; i change the way I spell the words.

a - ah as in "up"
aa or aaa - ah as in "car" or "talk"
i - as in "pit" or "dip"
ee - as in "keep" or "bee"
u - as in "pu"t or "foot"
oo - as in" boot" or "shoot"
e - as in "yesterday" or as in the "a" in "any" or the "e" in "enjoy"
E - as in "Yay" or pronouncing the alphabet "A"
ai - as in pronouncing the alphabet "I"
o - as in "only"
oh or oo - as in pronouncing the alphabet "O"
au or ou or ow - as in "how now brown cow"

k for k (non-aspirated)
kh for an aspirated k

I just add an H to any consonant that needs to be aspirated.

Tamil has a letter that is pronounced like an American would pronounce "ra". I write that as zh. Eg.: the name of the language is not Tamil, it is tamizh.

Tamizh (and Kannada and malayaaLam) also differentiates between a soft n and a hard N; a soft l and a hard L. I use capitalisation for this as I have done here in the name of the language malayaaLam.

So, piece of cake eh?

Cheers

[meerkat]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

..... Rama-female is not said the same way as Rama-male. ....

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Male, first syllable is longer; female, second syllable is longer, basically. There is some more subtlety.

I don't know how noopster's actress's name is said, but I suspect it's the answer

Originally Posted by noopster

Nothing to do with Tamil per se I think: Rama as a female name is pronounced ruh-ma. The TV actress Rama Vij is an example.

I also am unfamiliar with either the TV actress Rama Vij or how her name is said. But now I don't think there is any equivalence in my own language in the sense that there is no differentiation made between how 'Rama-female' and 'Rama-male' are said. I'll elaborate. --

Transliteration of the name 'Rama' to English itself is a source of some confusion. 'Rama' written in English could stand for either:

1. God 'Rama', or exclusively male names -- pronounced 'Raam'. There is no female equivalent.

or

2. Both female and male names, -- no distinction made in pronunciation: 'Raw-ma' in either case (gender to be understood by context). The male 'Rama' is actually a shortened form of complete names like 'Rama Prasad' (e.g. R. P. Goenka), or 'Rama Charan' etc. Only people close would shorten the name to 'Rama', so there usually is no confusion.
.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by meerkat

I

Rama - Male = RAAMA (Long vowel sound, similar to RAVANA)
Rama - Female = RAMA (Short vowel sound, similar to KARMA)

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Male, first syllable is longer; female, second syllable is longer, basically. There is some more subtlety.

ராமா - Rama
ரமா - Lakshmi

As a connoisseur of Carnatic music (especially during this season in Chennai), I do hope you understand this difference.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by srini1785

As a connoisseur of Carnatic music (especially during this season in Chennai), I do hope you understand this difference.

I wish!

The particular name that started all this for me, by the way, was Smt Rama Ravi



She laughed when I told her my mistake

Returning to English!

There was some sort of an attempt made to teach a phonetic alphabet in 1950- or 1960-something. I remember seeing books written in it. It was considered an educational disaster.

[AheadAJ]

In Hindi we would write like this:
Rama (female) रमा and Rama (male) राम.

I don't know whether it has been discussed here - Is it Ravan – रावण or Ravana – रावणा ?

I think everyone in their childhood have revelled at the quirks of English language, and, as I discovered, the clue was in Sanskrit and the manner in which we pronounce words ending with a consonant in that language.

For example, every consonant in Hindi alphabet ends with +अ, that's the reason early British decided to add a after every word that ended with consonant +अ.

Two interesting books to understand this quest are Charles Allen's "Buddha and the Sahibs" and "Ashoka".

And before I leave. An acquaintance in our friend circle was in the habit of pronouncing "link" as "ling". Once he was saying that we should use our "links" to help him get his work done. And this is how he said it – "आप लोगों का लिंग बहुत बड़ा है, use it to help me."

----

Note:
1. And speaking strictly from phonetics (going by the above logic), shouldn't the early British in India have written Rama (male) as Raama (Consonant "R" in this case is followed by vowel +आ ?
2. English is bonkers and reminds me of a meme I recently come across – Every "C" in "Pacific Ocean" is pronounced differently.
2. Apart from gender, "ling" is also used to denote phallic symbol.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AheadAJ

And speaking strictly from phonetics (going by the above logic), shouldn't the early British in India have written Rama (male) as Raama (Consonant "R" in this case is followed by vowel +आ ?

The British never did, and probably never will, respect local names and pronunciation, even when it is perfectly easily for the English-Language tongue to say. It's almost like they couldn't resist renaming everything and everyone. I don't know if other colonial powers did the same.

If one was to make a list, say, of world capital cities, how many would be spelt/pronounced as the local folk do? We can't even get Paris right?

These days, transliteration into Roman alphabet is in Indian hands. tilt has given clues as to how it might be better done.

Have we gone too far off topic yet?

[binand]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I don't know if other colonial powers did the same.

Pretty much every town/village in Goa has a Portuguese name and a local (Konkani-influenced?) name. Ponda is Fonde, Canacona is Kankon, Sanquelim is Sankhali, Margao is Madgaon etc.

[Samurai]

I get this newletter from "The Information" via email. Something caught my notice today.

Correction
Earlier this week I committed a grievous mistake: The movie that involves characters ripping off a mask to reveal themselves to be a different person was “Mission: Impossible” with Tom Cruise, not “Face/Off” (as I suggested), where in fact the John Travolta and Nicolas Cage characters had their faces swapped surgically. For those movie buffs offended by the inaccuracy, apologies!

The writer makes a silly mistake in naming the right movie. But instead of apologizing for making the mistake, he apologized for offending the movie buffs. Doesn't sound like the correct apology. It sounds a sarcastic comeback rather than an apology.

I see this kind of fake apologies often these days. Is this due to ignorance of language or ego?

[DigitalOne]

On the subject of foreign words and local pronunciations, I believe this Kannada spelling of "Toit" (the popular brewery in Indiranagar, Bengaluru and other places) is wrong. "Toit" is pronounced "tu-waa", whereas in the Kannada spelling the last 't' sound is also written.



Image Source

[binand]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

On the subject of foreign words and local pronunciations, I believe this Kannada spelling of "Toit" (the popular brewery in Indiranagar, Bengaluru and other places) is wrong. "Toit" is pronounced "tu-waa", whereas in the Kannada spelling the last 't' sound is also written.

1. It is a brand name. It is written/spelt the way the brand owners want it.

2. tu-waa is the French pronunciation. But the brewery is named based on how the Irish pronounce the word "tight" (a word that indicates inebriacy). "ta-yat" seems close enough.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

On the subject of foreign words and local pronunciations, I believe this Kannada spelling of "Toit" (the popular brewery in Indiranagar, Bengaluru and other places) is wrong. "Toit" is pronounced "tu-waa", whereas in the Kannada spelling the last 't' sound is also written.

My wife's friends group had a similar question few years ago as they hold their get together at Toit frequently. One of them knew the owner and asked about it.

Toit is not based on the French word for Roof. Instead, it is a play on the local slang "Tight" for getting drunk. So, it is local slang with a French appearance.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the pronunciation or the Kannada spelling.