[dailydriver]

Would

Sea of women descends on city

have been the correct usage or is the title still good in its present form?

Source: Star of Mysore, 30.08.2023

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Attachment 2497519

Would

Sea of women descends on city

have been the correct usage or is the title still good in its present form?

Source: Star of Mysore, 30.08.2023

I would say "Seas of women descend", or "sea of women descends".

[Thad E Ginathom]

[a] Sea of women descends on city.

It is one sea, therefore singular.

Many women descend on city.

There is more than one woman, therefore plural.

The key is looking at what is actual the subject of the verb. It may appear not to make sense, but it does. Let's take an easier example which leaves out the metaphor aspect:

A crowd of women descends on city.

It is one crowd.

It's a rather technical thing that many, these days, would consider pedantic. We feel that, whatever the sentence, lots of women are involved and it must be a plural situation. Even I do, unless I think about it! But feelings are feelings; rules are rules.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by mayankk

I would say "Seas of women descend", or "sea of women descends".

Like Thad said, it is one sea, therefore "descends". You are right. they're wrong.

I see this mistake happening a lot with we Indians - "one of my friend". It should be "one of my friends" like, I have more than one friend, so "friends" and I am talking about one of them.

Cheers

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by tilt

I see this mistake happening a lot with we Indians...[/b]

Since we are talking about grammar, the correct sentence in this case is "I see this mistake happening a lot with us Indians..."

[tilt]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Since we are talking about grammar, the correct sentence in this case is "I see this mistake happening a lot with us Indians..."

I was actually waiting for this , thank you.

It is "we" and not "us: in this case - let me elaborate.

The subject here is "Indians", and therefore it is "we".

I see your point too though - the preposition "with" demands "us" instead of 'we"; however in this specific case I believe the subject "Indians" trumps the preposition "with".

Cheers

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by tilt

the preposition "with" demands "us" instead of 'we"; however in this specific case I believe the subject "Indians" trumps the preposition "with".

This is deep stuff!

Tilt's knowledge of English grammar far exceeds mine. I don't know about this one. Will take his word for it

[binand]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Sea of women descends on city

This is a newspaper headline. Those have their own grammar rules (search for Headlinese, to get an idea of what I mean). Even though we all feel it should be "sea of women descends on city" is the correct usage I see many reputable news organisations using the other form, for example:

1. Th Hindu: Christ University set up Cyber Forensic Lab (not Christ University sets up).
2. BBC: Johnny Sexton 'itching to go' after ban as Ireland depart for France (not Ireland departs for France).

Originally Posted by tilt

I see this mistake happening a lot with we Indians.

Originally Posted by tilt

The subject here is "Indians", and therefore it is "we".

I think the subject of the sentence is "mistake" and "Indians" is the object, so the "us" version is correct.

"I see this mistake happening a lot with us Indians".
"I see we Indians make this mistake a lot".

[tilt]

Originally Posted by binand

This is a newspaper headline. Those have their own grammar rules (search for Headlinese, to get an idea of what I mean). Even though we all feel it should be "sea of women descends on city" is the correct usage I see many reputable news organisations using the other form, for example:

1. Th Hindu: Christ University set up Cyber Forensic Lab (not Christ University sets up).•SNIP*.

Corporations are considered to be plural. IBM "introduce" and not "introduces".

That said, the so-called "correct" usage has always irked me, like an itch I cannot reach. I personally prefer the incorrect version.

Re. your explanation of "we" vs. "us", I shall defer to your opinion because this is something no one has been able to come to an agreement on. Language evolves or degenerates depending on whether you ask me or Thad

Cheerds

[binand]

Originally Posted by tilt

Corporations are considered to be plural. IBM "introduce" and not "introduces".

Yet... "Tesla launches cheaper Model S" or "Tata brings 2 new variants of Altroz"

No, it is not that simple.

Originally Posted by tilt

Re. your explanation of "we" vs. "us", I shall defer to your opinion because this is something no one has been able to come to an agreement on.

But we should be able to resolve the grammatic difference between we & us (and their siblings, I & me) satisfactorily among ourselves? Simply put, that one is a subject pronoun and the other is an object pronoun?

[tilt]

Originally Posted by binand

Yet... "Tesla launches cheaper Model S" or "Tata brings 2 new variants of Altroz"

No, it is not that simple.

Actually it is. Like I said, your examples are what I personally prefer though they're "incorrect".

Originally Posted by binand

But we should be able to resolve the grammatic difference between we & us (and their siblings, I & me) satisfactorily among ourselves? Simply put, that one is a subject pronoun and the other is an object pronoun?

"I" and "me" are easy. "We" and "us" too are, except in this one case.

Let me do one more bit of mischief here - is it "It is I" while knocking on a door or is it "It is me" when they ask who it is? I say "It is I". What say you?

Cheers

[binand]

Originally Posted by tilt

Let me do one more bit of mischief here - is it "It is I" while knocking on a door or is it "It is me" when they ask who it is? I say "It is I". What say you?

It is "It is I" - the whole thing is a noun phrase that is the subject of the full sentence, "It is I who knocked on the door"?

[DigitalOne]

When in doubt, ask ChatGPT !

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by binand

This is a newspaper headline. Those have their own grammar rules (search for Headlinese, to get an idea of what I mean).

No they don't. They just get things wrong with impunity. And they often get the language of both their headlines and their content wrong due to ignorance.

My father was a newspaper editor. He warned me never to copy newspaper English. Which was, I suppose, part of what you are referring to as Headlinese. Still, it isn't right.

[murillo]

"Descends" is correct. If they insert 's', the text will run onto the next line.

I know a flight descends and a submarine descends; I am not sure if a sea descends anywhere.

Words like 'sea of' and 'massive' aren't concrete language. The dek says 2,000 buses ferried the women. If we assume 50 passengers per bus, it is 1 lakh women. Including other visitors and personnel, it could be 1.2-1.5 lakh.

*****

Company names are considered collective nouns. On this topic, there are differences between US and UK English – I think, much of our confusion is due to this.

In general:

Collective nouns take either singular or plural verbs depending on "sense".

If the collective noun refers to individual members, then it will take a plural verb. If the collective noun refers to an entity collectively, then it will take a singular verb.

Example with the use of collective noun "family":
Collective noun with singular verb: The family has decided to move to another city
Collective noun with plural verb: The family have differing opinions about moving to another city

Sometimes, you can avoid this situation by expanding the noun, e.g., you may say the family members, team members, committee members, panelists, etc., and then use a plural verb with it. But we can't always do this, because this is decided by the "sense", i.e., what you want to say.

*****

"It is I" is grammatically correct. But this will be very formal and bookish. Today, "It is me" is widely used and accepted.

Similarly:
My colleague Ram thinks he is a better team player than me.

The above is nowadays considered correct. Although we may prefer to use "than I" or "than I am", this will be considered very formal and rigid English.

If you choose to use the technically correct version, it is better to use the complete verb (am, can, do, etc.).
Example: My colleague Ram thinks he is a better team player than I am.

*****

Regarding this sentence, "I see this mistake happening a lot with us Indians."

"Us" can be used as a direct object or an indirect object of verbs or as an object of a preposition. Hence, in the above sentence, "with us" is correct. The pronoun "us" is the object of the preposition "with" and is renaming the objective noun "Indians", hence it takes the objective case. If the pronoun is renaming a subject, it will take the subjective case, e.g., We Indians are successful in landing on the moon.

The sentence is a very roundabout way of saying its message in a passive manner. Quite simply, we are trying to say that the Indians are making this mistake a lot/frequently/often. It is better to rephrase the sentence, e.g., Indians are prone to this mistake.

I see this mistake happening a lot with us Indians - a breakdown

I see this mistake - main clause
I - subject
see - verb
this - demonstrative adjective
mistake - accusative noun

happening a lot with us Indians - present participle phrase modifying the noun "mistake"
happening - present participle
a - indefinite article
lot - noun

with us Indians - adverb adjunct
with - preposition
us - objective pronoun renaming the objective noun "Indians"
Indians - objective noun