[Mission_Safari]

Originally Posted by Gansan

So the time may be ripe now for the unions to make the attempt again!

You mean time is ripe for the unions to milk money from IT companies too.

Sir, I am sure you know better about the number of companies in chennai that are shut down because of unions.

[anoopap]

Truth is uncovering. Thats all.

Even at time of boom, all were exploited. (including myself). But no complaints. (paisa mil raha hai... papa mummy beevi khush hain).

In recession, eploitation mode is running as default. But less money. (yeh ladka office mein kar kya raha hai ???)

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The first thing Union will demand is equality in pay, based on seniority rather than merit. This is because the former can be easily quantified unlike the latter.

How many IT people can stomach that?

Nice and funny way you put that samurai but actually unions are not that bad and irrational.

The Unions came in almost all states of india, but particularly in kerala and west Bengal they are notorious. Kerala specially was blessed with crazy laws, i am not trying to offer anyone a crash course in history of unions but Unions are basically a represensation of the employees towards the employers, There was a time in kerala when people had pits dug in front of their house where they used to feed their labours, yes you guessed it right they used to pour food in the pit and these people were supposed to eat it. To empower this deprived class of people unions have to come up, but as people realised unions can get stronger than the employer itself they started threatning employers for petty issues, so what started as a cure turned into a curse, today though we are educated still dont know a lot of things mainly cause of ignorance, to empower this class of 'educated but ignorant of rights' people there is a strong need unions, else we might have to see a lot more of this happening arround. Incase of unskilled labourers you are right skills cannot be quantified and they have to resort to other quantifiable stuff like seniority.

I remember a interview with Azim premji by NDTV when he opened a development center in kerala. Mr. Premji was asked if he had considered the fact that opening a new center in place like Kerala was a big risk, to that he said. " I have give this land oppertunity, if they misuse it, it will be withdrawn". Thats the most blunt statement i have ever heared by a Chairman of a company, anyways i am not here to add fire to the debate, I am just here to pray, may Vishal Yadv's soul rest in peace


Pramod

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Mission_Safari

You mean time is ripe for the unions to milk money from IT companies too.

Sir, I am sure you know better about the number of companies in chennai that are shut down because of unions.

Not necessarily. Not all unions are like that. The Bank Unions, for example.

I am no great lover of unions in general. But conditions will be worse in their absence. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it is necessary to some extent, like salt is for the food. As I said, there can be extremes on both sides.

In an ideal world, employers will have the welfare and security of their employees foremost in their mind, and unions can be dispensed with.

[anoopap]

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

Nice and funny way you put that samurai but actually unions are not that bad and irrational.

The Unions came in almost all states of india, but particularly in kerala and west Bengal they are notorious. Kerala specially was blessed with crazy laws, i am not trying to offer anyone a crash course in history of unions but Unions are basically a represensation of the employees towards the employers,

I remember a interview with Azim premji by NDTV when he opened a development center in kerala. Mr. Premji was asked if he had considered the fact that opening a new center in place like Kerala was a big risk, to that he said. " I have give this land oppertunity, if they misuse it, it will be withdrawn".


Pramod

The same kerala union law helped one of IT companies here in trivandrum to withdraw its layoff. Eventhough there are no IT unions as such.

Unions do exist in west capitalist countries, and they bargain HARD.

To balance anything, we NEED 2 opposing forces, else all is futile.

[Mission_Safari]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Not necessarily. Not all unions are like that. The Bank Unions, for example.

I am no great lover of unions in general. But conditions will be worse in their absence. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it is necessary to some extent, like salt is for the food. As I said, there can be extremes on both sides.

In an ideal world, employers will have the welfare and security of their employees foremost in their mind, and unions can be dispensed with.

Sorry for going OT in this thread.

Most unions have political backing and are for monetary gains than the welfare of the employees in a company so i doubt if that will work out.
You are right about the bank unions but i don't see that kind of approach in other unions. Unions in manufacturing companies for example.

Lets leave this at this point as i don't really see unions coming into IT in the near future.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

I am just here to pray, may Vishal Yadv's soul rest in peace


Pramod

That, I endorse, and I can sympathize with whatever it is that drove him to this. It is not easy, to kill oneself.
Also, newtons law of action and reaction is at work not just in the world of physics. Unions are formed as a reaction to management misdeeds. All over the world, where they have been able to form. What they do turn into later is what happens to many organizations, once the original agenda gets hijacked. And as a reaction to that, they get marginalized. Until something like the IT thing proliferates, when they may again appear in a, hopefully, better form having learnt the lessons of the past. Its a pendulum, as in most other things, and that is usually how progress is made, never in a straight line, but as a crab walks. Always good to keep this in mind, when one hears extreme praise or criticism for any extreme end of the swing of the pendulum. Indeed, the swing to the one end is what carries the impetus for the change in direction.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Also, newtons law of action and reaction is at work not just in the world of physics. Unions are formed as a reaction to management misdeeds. All over the world, where they have been able to form. What they do turn into later is what happens to many organizations, once the original agenda gets hijacked. And as a reaction to that, they get marginalized. Until something like the IT thing proliferates, when they may again appear in a, hopefully, better form having learnt the lessons of the past. Its a pendulum, as in most other things, and that is usually how progress is made, never in a straight line, but as a crab walks. Always good to keep this in mind, when one hears extreme praise or criticism for any extreme end of the swing of the pendulum. Indeed, the swing to the one end is what carries the impetus for the change in direction.

Perfectly put Sawyer, the very idea I was going to type, you beat me to it.

[Pallavi]

+1 to that. How many Union leaders will put the benefit of the union members before theirs? It would require a very strong and honest leader (quite a rarity) to make that union a success, especially in IT industry.

Also some demands of Unions like 8 hours work per day, promotions based on seniority etc, will result in India losing its place as preferred outsourcing destination. I think we need something like a customized union or labour laws for IT industry.

More than anything, we need training or counselling how to handle a situations like employer harrassment, layoffs etc.

-Pallavi

Originally Posted by Mission_Safari

Sorry for going OT in this thread.

Most unions have political backing and are for monetary gains than the welfare of the employees in a company so i doubt if that will work out.
You are right about the bank unions but i don't see that kind of approach in other unions. Unions in manufacturing companies for example.

Lets leave this at this point as i don't really see unions coming into IT in the near future.

[kvish]

I really hope the IT industry is saved from another mafia of unions. I hope people soon realize that end of the day, it is just a job. As the wise men put it, Life is what happens outside the office hours.
And inspite of all the exploitation claims, the IT industry is paid very well. (Compare it to teachers and even doctors who toil all day getting really really low salaries. Most often do much better job for the good of the society at large) People must learn to save up for the rainy day and stop treating job losses as a catastrophic situation. Especially the IT folk. Most people who are laid off are finding alternate jobs in short times.

OFF TOPIC: I understand having a database for background checks. But I dont understand why NASSCOM should store performance history of individuals. Is this really true?

[Mission_Safari]

Originally Posted by kvish

But I dont understand why NASSCOM should store performance history of individuals. Is this really true?

AFAIK it is only a skills registry.

[Pallavi]

Originally Posted by Mission_Safari

AFAIK it is only a skills registry.

Then what do the Wipro HR mean by saying that they will get the profile blacklisted?

[lsjey]

Sincerely praying to god for Vishal's soul to rest in peace. This is the cost that IT cos are paying to learn how to manage crisis like this and recessions of this magnitude. Hopefully some learnings get assimilated and others are spared this kind of fate. I'm yet to see a senior HR being asked to leave. Wonder why is this the case.

I for one has been thorougly disenchanted with the operating margin focus and nothing else attitude of the top 3 IT cos.

The cos that are earning a lot of respect nowadays are CTS, Mindtree on IT services side and many multinationals like IBM, HP etc. I'm hearing that even HCL and Tech Mahindra are good.

My advice, please wait out for a few more months and definitely a job can be found again.
lsjey

[Gansan]

@kvish,
Thank you for acknowledging that people from other sectors also put in good work for much less pay. The IT sector being a high wage island is the main reason for unionism not taking root so far. But no one knows what will happen in future.

This is OT, but the high wage islands create social tensions in many cities. For example the rents are bench marked against IT sector wages. I lived in Bangalore for five years with my non-IT industry wages, and renewal of the rental agreement every year was a real cause for tension. Things are only a little better in Chennai, but I am insulated because I own my home here.

[rm_arjuna]

Most of IT / ITES cos are a glorified sweat shops only consolation being Good pay, great office to work and opportunity to travel / work abroad . Most of my friends / close family members work in this sector and the kind of sacrifices made is heart crunching . add to this co's take advantage of recession and sack People without any concern . One of my cousin's got thru campus with TCS and was supposed to join in Aug'08 , after much delay we finally joined in Mar'09 forgoing further studies abroad and till now he is in Bench without any work imagine his plight if he is to be sacked . He has no experience to show and losing on his productive years in his career .