[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by humyum

Hey, Since I see a lot of recruitment and industry people here, this is a life changing choice I have made and I want to be sure before I take a plunge.

I have done a Diploma In Automobile Engineering, Finished with a BE with HONS in Automotive Engineering too from Coventry University and got a 2:1, Now I am planning to take up an MBA in Engineering Management from Coventry University as Coventry is good for these kind of courses and secondly not many Universities in UK have this course.

Did I make the right choice ? My University starts from October. What is the pay packet I am looking at ? Will the Automotive Industry get me good jobs ? any further pointers.

Buddy,first of all my hearty congrats to you, but your question of whether it is the right choice and the industry status looks odd to me! My question, are you trying to do a masters because you will get better paid and industry will treat you better? If thats your idea, i am sorry mate, you are wrong. Since you say you have done your bachelors from UK, I am sure you are well aware of the mentality of the market in western coutries, they look how motivated and interested you are rather than how educated you are! So do a masters to learn! you might wonder who am I to tell you, (nothing against you!) but I am also pursuing my masters right now, and I am doing it for the sake of knowledge and not looking about tomorrow's job prospects. So have that motivation, I am sure no recession can stop you from getting a job. All the best for your masters

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by vina

IIT is not supposed to produce people for research - no matter what people think. And other universities are not supposed to produce junk - though many do seem they are entitled to.

I once raised this issue in a 'brain storming session' and got into trouble. Let us get the facts straight:

1. IITs are small in the global context.

2. Modern research (esp applied) demands mega bucks. When you talk of missions of $$s we cannot afford to be all over. So we must focus.

3. The demands of UG education (where we excel) and PG education and research are different. To be good for UG teaching you need to have people in most sub-disciplines, while for research you need a degree of teamwork, so that there is synergy.

Given the small size both demands cannot be met at the same time. So to be a good PG/research institution one has to identify the core competence, and to an extent sacrifice the rest. Hardly the ideal platform for UG teaching.

One classic case of such focus is Cambridge. Before WWII Experimental Nuclear & Particle Physics was synonymous with Cambridge - Rutherford, Chadwick, Anderson to name a few. After, WWII they realised that this was fast becoming an area of big bucks, and massive facilities (Fermi Lab, CERN, ..) so they knowing reduced their exposure.

Nehru's grand vision was for Universities to teach and do some research, CSIR to develop this into a viable product, and then industry to take over. Never happened. I think the only Research based University in India is IISc, Bangalore. But then how much of it due to the traditions set (esp. under the soft touch of Tatas) is debatable. Also, they hardly have any UG programme.

[Samurai]

I agree with sgiitk. Each of these are so specialized, no institute can be master of all, no matter how much they claim. Each requires a different culture from top down.

For example, a company can't claim to be a product and services company, when they do try, they fail badly. Seen so many instances of product company trying to play at services or services companies playing at products, I have been part of such attempts. Fails every time because the culture required is so different. Once the chief of TCS Bangalore almost bit off my head when I said I was doing research. It was 1992 and I had moved from a tiny product company to TCS few month back. My boss jumped in and corrected it as analysis, then the top guy cooled down. For them everything had to be billable to somebody.

[vina]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

....


I think the only Research based University in India is IISc, Bangalore. But then how much of it due to the traditions set (esp. under the soft touch of Tatas) is debatable. Also, they hardly have any UG programme.

To add to the last line - also, they hardly have any research.


Going back to the international context - most papers published by universities in US are junk - and most guys get their PhD by publishing the same results (2 prototypes work out of 10 - they call those two "typical") in 5 different places.

Almost all of the "university" research that is any good is actually done with industry or agencies like ARPA - universities effectively provide (very) cheap manpower in grad students and some (very) cheap software and other infrastructure that the manufacturers sell them at discount. In addition universities provide cover from internal bureaucracy to industry guys really wanting to do stuff.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

^^If IISc // IITs are not into research what exactly are they doing? Does that mean in India there is no genuine research happening at all?

Spike

[vina]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

^^If IISc // IITs are not into research what exactly are they doing? Does that mean in India there is no genuine research happening at all?

Spike

IITs are in the business of training - they are also a club of people with raw brain power.

IISc and IITs have some professors who do research and the some more who do a lot of consulting (research lite) with the industry. The sorry state of affairs vis-a-vis research is more a reflection of Indian industry than of these institutions.

There is a lot of research happening in India (though most of it is very inefficient in money spent/results produced basis) in govt. labs run by CSIR, ISRO, DRDO, DAE's various labs and organisations. Almost all of the real work is done due to personal efforts of a few people.


Industrial research has increased over the last decade. Software, semiconductors etc. have MNCs doing it, life sciences (Pharma, Seeds etc.) have both MNCs and home-grown companies working on it.



Specifically for you - once you get your PhD you'll have a decision to make. But by that time the total quantum of research effort would have increased substantially mainly because the Indian industry would have grown both in size and complexity by then and would be willing to spend money and - much more importantly - provide their management skills to research projects.

The second is very important because this is one of the biggest failings of govt. research establishment - terribly managed projects. I know of quite a few great efforts that went nowhere because of completely misguided goals.



In general however, research will never be as lucrative as many other fields. You should take it up only if you love it.

[sgiitk]

@vina; I agree and disagree. Remember Media Lab, Jet Propulsion Lab, and many others are institution based. Lawrence Livermore and Lawrence Berkeley have very close links. One may add that the California cluster is mostly Defence or NASA based.

I think the two places which have best managed the synergy of academia and industry are Germany and France. In Germany in many disciplines it is almost mandatory for a professor to have spent a decade or more in industry. In France the transition from Universities to CExx to Industry is very smooth and transparent.

Incidentally have we not drifted far from the topic!

[vina]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@vina; I agree and disagree. Remember Media Lab, Jet Propulsion Lab, and many others are institution based. Lawrence Livermore and Lawrence Berkeley have very close links. One may add that the California cluster is mostly Defence or NASA based.

I think the two places which have best managed the synergy of academia and industry are Germany and France. In Germany in many disciplines it is almost mandatory for a professor to have spent a decade or more in industry. In France the transition from Universities to CExx to Industry is very smooth and transparent.

Incidentally have we not drifted far from the topic!

Sir

you have the perspective from inside the academia, and have many more years than I do. There is no question of disagreement - you'll be right.

I can learn from where you disagree.


The topic is a rant topic - I think we are doing it a favour by drifting away. OTOH we are, in a way, also discussing why the education system is doing such a pathetic job in producing such poor grads - so really not drifting away.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@vina; I agree and disagree. Remember Media Lab, Jet Propulsion Lab, and many others are institution based. Lawrence Livermore and Lawrence Berkeley have very close links. One may add that the California cluster is mostly Defence or NASA based.

I think the two places which have best managed the synergy of academia and industry are Germany and France. In Germany in many disciplines it is almost mandatory for a professor to have spent a decade or more in industry. In France the transition from Universities to CExx to Industry is very smooth and transparent.

Incidentally have we not drifted far from the topic!

Exactly brought out sir. I had been wondering about this and was talking to my american classmate, who said her professors(some of them) are fresh Ph.D grads straight out of their Ph.D's and all of the professors in Germany hold a minimum of 10 years of industrial experience.
From what I have seen is, once out of industry and into academics, these professors, still keep in touch with their industrial counterparts or become ambassadors for their previous organisation in the university and encourage students under them to take up interns or research works for their former employers. They support the students who show interest and help them in even getting a job with the organisation.
Everything seems to be interlinked to one another here and even the military is linked to universities and research centres for its R&D.
But SgIIT sir, you must be the best person to answer this question, does the IIT's and IISC's and many state univ's collaborate with DRDO/ISRO/Defence establishments for research? Because, I myself applied for a research assistant position in the aerodynamics lab of IIT-Madras, which was a project for ISRO/DRDO. But how much do the results of such researches constitute to these organisations? If the govt./Defence organisations are indeed doing research based on the individual efforts of some scientists,then what is IIT and IISC doing in the name of research? for whom are they doing research?
One good example of IIT's contribution is into India's fighter jet, LCA Tejas program where a lot of aerodynamics and flight controls programming came from IIT's and IITians working as research assistants at ADA/NAL.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Everything seems to be interlinked to one another here and even the military is linked to universities and research centres for its R&D.
you must be the best person to answer this question, does the IIT's and IISC's and many state univ's collaborate with DRDO/ISRO/Defence establishments for research? ....
One good example of IIT's contribution is into India's fighter jet, LCA Tejas program where a lot of aerodynamics and flight controls programming came from IIT's and IITians working as research assistants at ADA/NAL.

There are collaborations. At IITK we completed a major project on Railway Safety a couple of years ago (12 out of 14 were deemed successful). Yes, our Wind Tunnel is used by ISRO, NAL, etc. Now a major customer is Boeing.

There are two reasons these are not very popular - you do not get publications out of them, and we are not exactly in the habit of working to a time frame (this is critical for Industry and ISRO).

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

There are collaborations. At IITK we completed a major project on Railway Safety a couple of years ago (12 out of 14 were deemed successful). Yes, our Wind Tunnel is used by ISRO, NAL, etc. Now a major customer is Boeing.

There are two reasons these are not very popular - you do not get publications out of them, and we are not exactly in the habit of working to a time frame (this is critical for Industry and ISRO).

Well something is better than nothing! but do the students get to work in these projects, outside their curriculum(voluntarily)?
This is one main advantage that I see in foreign universities, I can talk only about germany, i.e. every department has some projects which are funded (i clearly understand that the catch is here!) by the department and by the government(since most univs are government undertaken) and is headed by a professor in that department. The work is given to students either as student assistants, research assistants, bachelor/master thesis or to students who want to work voluntarily. This is available and every student is free to take part in any project of his wish and interest. This invokes a interest towards research and moreover, every project is indirectly funded by a company or a government organisation or even the department itself sets a timeline and tries to stick to it rigourously. It helps the student in not only gaining knowledge but also to learn project management, time management and other skills which he must need during a job with a company. This I believe is the difference between IIT and univs here,why here they manage to churn out more projects and do more R&D and also to churn out technically and management wise sound engineers.

[sgiitk]

@AlphaKilo; In the US parlance an Assistant Prof is also a Professor, so the Professor you and I are referring two are far more senior 'animals'.

Sponsored projects do employ students - provided there is no confidentiality clause. Masters projects are not expected to produce new knowledge. One reason we have not developed the habit of time bound research is the old Nehruvian model where this type of work was for CSIR/Defence labs. ISRO thanks to Kalam has changed the mindset somewhat.

[funkykar]

A nice article from TOI.

THE SPEAKING TREE.

Are you Intelligent or an Intellect?

We spend a lot of time acquiring intelligence at the expense of developing intellect.
Intelligence is built by gaining information, knowledge from external agencies, from schools and universities, teachers and textbooks. The intellect is developed through your individual effort by exercising the faculty of questioning, thinking and reasoning. Not accepting anything that does not admit logic or reason. Know the difference between the two.

The intelligence acquired from external agencies is much like data fed into a computer. Consider, a computer charged with a complete knowledge of fire extinguishers, firefighting and fire escapes. All the knowledge stored in its memory cannot help the computer act on its own. If the room catches fire, it will go up in flames. The knowledge you acquire is of no use to you without an intellect.

You need a powerful intellect to put the knowledge, intelligence gained, to practical use in life. That explains why among millions of doctors graduating only a few have discovered lifesaving procedures, cures and remedies. So too, among millions of engineers only few design something unusual like the Panama Canal or Eurotunnel. It is their intellect that renders their performance outstanding. Besides hindering success and progress, intelligence without intellect could destroy peace and happiness.

Not realising the importance of the intellect in life, people make no attempt to develop their own. Instead, they merely indulge in acquiring intelligence through surface reading of others’ periodicals and publications. Education has lost its meaning and purpose. For generations human beings have turned into intelligent robots and are traversing through life without awareness, much less enquiring into the meaning and purpose of life.”

The world today is in a state of chaos due to the perversion in human development - all intelligence and no intellect. That explains why even highly educated businesspersons, professionals and scholars become alcoholics, are short-tempered and succumb to worry and anxiety. It is the mind that craves alcohol. It is the mind that loses its temper. Again, it is the mind that constantly harbours worry of the past and anxiety for the future. When the intellect remains undeveloped and weak, it is unable to control the vagaries of the mind. Those having developed a powerful intellect, with or without academic distinction, can hold the mind under perfect control and direct action to spell success and peace in life.

The educational systems the world over must be held responsible for the debacle of the intellect. It is their primary responsibility to strike an equable balance between acquiring intelligence and developing the intellect. Only by maintaining this essential equation can governments be run, businesses conducted, professions practised and families live in peace and prosperity.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

. I think the only Research based University in India is IISc, Bangalore. But then how much of it due to the traditions set (esp. under the soft touch of Tatas) is debatable. Also, they hardly have any UG programme.

I think TIFR Mumbai also contributes significantly to core research.

[vina]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

I think TIFR Mumbai also contributes significantly to core research.

If you read any journal of international repute (i.e. reputed to be at the top of its field) - none of the Indian institutions is generating any significant research.

IITs at least can claim to be teaching focused and small. The govt. labs are spectacular failures - this includes TIFR - not only are they not generating any substantial research, unlike IITs they are not generating anything else either.