[sgiitk]

Let me also join the party as a PhD in Physics. First a minor correction - IIMs refer to their 'PhDs' as FBA's. They are registered as Societies and hence cannot award degrees with B or M either. Hence the moniker PGDBM for MBA.

As for the use of Dr by medicos in the UK only GPs are Medicine post grads use Dr, Surgeons use Mr . Why - the degree in surgery is MS or MCh and not MD or DM, i.e., does not bear the term doctor.

As for the Abbreviation as per Fowler's (the bible of Queens English usage) you do not suffix a '.' if the abbreviation ends in the same character of the full title. So it will be Maj. but Lt Col and so on!

[w 12]

@ all , there certainly is Ph.D or doctorate in medicine . It is usually done after MD ( masters ) or rarely as a composite Masters + Doctorate in respective fields. It is usually known as DM or Ph. D as opposed to MD.

In some parts of north India , till very recently ( or may be even now ), Engineers used to put "Er" like Dr before their names.

As some one who has a doctorate in engineering , from IISc, I find this mocking & trivialisation of Ph.Ds funny. ( there is a PG exam called GATE, which has quite a bit of competition to get into top courses & colleges , it certainly is no cakewalk, 98 - 99 percentile is required for top colleges)

If some one feels a Ph.D or masters will not add value to their basic coding,
& maintenance / management job in any generic It services company , it is upto them. ( You may not need any great skills in managing what is basically is global wage arbitrage, i.e. what a labour contractor does everywhere ) An infosys or ODC of some global it services company IMO
is a wrong place to see value in a Ph.D.

But that does not make all Ph.Ds or their work worthless and all Ph.Ds do not become lecturers, scheming for 2 rises in their basic pay! Organasations which develop new technologies value such candidates & their numbers are growing .

[Samurai]

W_12, we are only referring to those PhD who demand respect right out of University. Although I have pointed it out repeatedly, somehow people are missing it. I don't believe that academic research done as part of PhD should automatic put them on pedestal. I am interested in what fundamental research or industrial research they do after that.

Regarding PhDs end up in coding, it happens. I have seen it a lot in in the industry. Unlike academics where degree counts for a lot, industry is very result oriented. Nobody will reject Microsoft/Apple/Facebook because they are started by college dropouts. Similarly, nobody will put a PhD on a pedestal until he or she accomplishes something good.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by w 12

@ all , there certainly is Ph.D or doctorate in medicine . It is usually done after MD ( masters ) or rarely as a composite Masters + Doctorate in respective fields. It is usually known as DM or Ph. D as opposed to MD.

In some parts of north India , till very recently ( or may be even now ), Engineers used to put "Er" like Dr before their names.

MD is Doctor of Medicine (I guess in Latin) and MS is Master of Surgery, hence the Dr and Mr. DM is post MD and MCh (Magister Chirurgiae) post MS. PhD in Medical sciences is essentially a research degree. Also, non-medico's do a PhD in subjects like Anatomy, Physiology, Biochemistry, etc. in the normal sequence of things.

Yes, Er is very much in vogue (the intensity is somewhat lower). The newest kid on the block is CA.

I personally feel that using Dr for and by Honorary (rhymes with Anari as we refer to them) PhD holders is wrong.

There are the good, the bad and the ugly degree givers, incl for PhD all over the world. Let us not demean those who have worked hard for their degrees. I know of quite a few MBBS holders opting for the Civil Services as well as MBA's. Now do we or do we not call them doctors!

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Let me also join the party as a PhD in Physics. First a minor correction - IIMs refer to their 'PhDs' as FBA's. They are registered as Societies and hence cannot award degrees with B or M either. Hence the moniker PGDBM for MBA.

Interesting. Sir, I've heard about Fellow programme in management (FPM) offered by IIM's; how is that different?

Originally Posted by w 12

As some one who has a doctorate in engineering , from IISc, I find this mocking & trivialisation of Ph.Ds funny. ( there is a PG exam called GATE, which has quite a bit of competition to get into top courses & colleges , it certainly is no cakewalk, 98 - 99 percentile is required for top colleges)

Great, if you do not mind, could you share about your research specialisation? I mean in which field?

If some one feels a Ph.D or masters will not add value to their basic coding,
& maintenance / management job in any generic It services company , it is upto them. ( You may not need any great skills in managing what is basically is global wage arbitrage, i.e. what a labour contractor does everywhere ) An infosys or ODC of some global it services company IMO
is a wrong place to see value in a Ph.D.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

There are the good, the bad and the ugly degree givers, incl for PhD all over the world. Let us not demean those who have worked hard for their degrees. I know of quite a few MBBS holders opting for the Civil Services as well as MBA's. Now do we or do we not call them doctors!

Well said Sir!

Spike

[Deep Blue]

Originally Posted by Samurai

When medical doctors do research, does that lead to PhD? I knew a distant relative who got into Medical research after his MD.

MD(doctor of medicine) for broad medical specialities(e.g.,General medicine, dermatalogy) and MS(master of surgery) for broad surgical specialities (e.g.,General surgey,orthopaedics) are postgraduate degrees in the medical field. These are 3yrs course after the obtaining the basic MBBS degree and trains one to practise that particular speciality. During the course of this 3yrs study, the students also need to submit a thesis on a particular problem/disease/surgical technique within his/her speciality. This is done under the guidance of a professor/associate professor in the dept. Thesis is to orient the student towards the research methodology and publishing papers in peer reviewed journals.
DM(doctor of medicine) for medical subspecialities(e.g.,neurology,nephrology)and MCh(Magister or master chirurgiae) for surgical subspecialities(neurosurgery,urology) are post doctoral degrees after obtaining a MD in general medicine and MS in general surgery respectively. Again three year courses in the chosen subspecialities. Reseach requirement vary from thesis to publishing academic papers.
Phd is, as far as I know, a much more intense study/research of a focussed problem/question.
So I dont think MD or MS would be equivalent of Phd. A medical graduate or postgraduate can seperately pursue Phd in their areas of interest if they want
Most doctors on the clinical side do not have the time or interest to pursue research. Nor do many of our medical colleges have infrastructure for research.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

As for the use of Dr by medicos in the UK only GPs are Medicine post grads use Dr, Surgeons use Mr . Why - the degree in surgery is MS or MCh and not MD or DM, i.e., does not bear the term doctor.

I quote from the Royal college of surgeons website

"In most other parts of the world all medical practitioners, physicians and surgeons alike, are referred to as ‘Dr’ whereas in the UK surgeons are usually referred to as Mr, Miss or Mrs. This is because, from the Middle Ages physicians had to embark on formal university training to gain possession of a degree in medicine before they could enter practice. The possession of this degree, a doctorate, entitled them to the title of ‘Doctor of Medicine’ or Doctor.
The training of surgeons until the mid-19th century was different. They did not have to go to university to gain a degree; instead they usually served on apprenticeship to a surgeon. Afterwards they took an examination. In London, after 1745, this was conducted by the Surgeons’ Company and after 1800 by The Royal College of Surgeons. If successful they were awarded a diploma, not a degree, therefore they were unable to call themselves ‘Doctor’, and stayed instead with the title ‘Mr’.
Outside London and the largest cities the surgeon served an apprenticeship like many other tradesmen, but did not necessarily take any examination. Today all medical practitioners, whether physicians or surgeons have to undertake training at medical school to obtain a qualifying degree. Thereafter a further period of postgraduate study and training through junior posts is required before full consultant surgeon status is achieved. Thus the tradition of a surgeon being referred to as ‘Mr/Miss/Mrs’ has continued, meaning that in effect a person starts as ‘Mr/Miss/Mrs’, becomes a ‘Dr’ and then goes back to being a ‘Mr’; ‘Miss’ or ‘Mrs’ again!"


There is also a class thing. Among the early surgeons were barbers who were supposed to be doing wartime amputations. So the physicians were obviously not interested in lending the prefix "Dr" to the barbers.




Sorry for the long, way off OT post

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Regarding PhDs end up in coding, it happens. I have seen it a lot in in the industry. Unlike academics where degree counts for a lot, industry is very result oriented. Nobody will reject Microsoft/Apple/Facebook because they are started by college dropouts. Similarly, nobody will put a PhD on a pedestal until he or she accomplishes something good.

A lot of big I.T. shops in North America will put their new hires through a rigorous gauntlet of closely supervised technical training courses followed by a period of closely monitored O.J.T. They want to train people "their way" over and above what was learned in college. They, in effect, create their own I.T. school. In this way big shops attempt to solve the problem of credentials versus performance, weeding out the people who could not produce quality code or complete a difficult project.

[w 12]

@spike - my subject was Engineering Design , with special focus on some advanced composites

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

^^ That is great! You did your PhD at CPDM I guess or some other Department? Who was your guide? Curious to know.

Spike

[sgiitk]

@DeepBlue; Thanks for adding to my knowledge from the Royal College of Surgeons.

Incidentally, MCh and DMJ branches are not called sub-specialities, but are referred to as Super Specialities. Let me add one bit, 5-year programs leading directly to an MCh or DM are also coming in in many disciplines.

The problem of early super-specialisation is, that in the words of an eminent physician (who was then a VC) is,"A patient comes to a neuro... with a pain in his backside, and this super-specialist (of the abbreviated, i.e. 5-year variety) looks at his head, and not at his A$$".

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

The problem of early super-specialisation is, that in the words of an eminent physician (who was then a VC) is,"A patient comes to a neuro... with a pain in his backside, and this super-specialist (of the abbreviated, i.e. 5-year variety) looks at his head, and not at his A$$".

If the patient suffers from rectal cranial inversion, this is appropriate.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

I've heard about Fellow programme in management (FPM) offered by IIM's; how is that different?

Great, if you do not mind, could you share about your research specialisation? I mean in which field?

As I stated since the IIMs are not universities they cannot use the terms MBA and PhD. So the terms are PGDBM and FBA. No difference otherwise. I also know that in some countries the term PGDBM created quite a lot of furore. I guess there was a notification somewhere establishing the equivalence.

I am originally a Physicist, specializing in Experimental Solid State Physics (more exactly Neutron Scattering from Semi-conductors). For the past decade and a half, I am totally into computer interfacing with four books (two books x two editions each) on the subject.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

As I stated since the IIMs are not universities they cannot use the terms MBA and PhD. So the terms are PGDBM and FBA. No difference otherwise. I also know that in some countries the term PGDBM created quite a lot of furore. I guess there was a notification somewhere establishing the equivalence.

I am originally a Physicist, specializing in Experimental Solid State Physics (more exactly Neutron Scattering from Semi-conductors). For the past decade and a half, I am totally into computer interfacing with four books (two books x two editions each) on the subject.

If I am not mistaken, the fellow who founded Norton (Norton computer security software, one of the world's leaders) was also a physicist originally. Must be some carry over of thought process. Semi-conductors?

Robotics?...what kind of interfaces are you doing?

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I am originally a Physicist, specializing in Experimental Solid State Physics (more exactly Neutron Scattering from Semi-conductors). For the past decade and a half, I am totally into computer interfacing with four books (two books x two editions each) on the subject.

Whoops!!! So that avatar pic, is that really you?? I was expecting a 20 something guy using his grand dad's pic?

[sgiitk]

@BaCkSeAtDrIVeR; I hope I have all the caps/lower-case right. Yes, it is yours truly. I did my PhD in 1976 (may be before some of you were born!). I have had the priviledge of working at the two most powerful neutron sources in the world ILL-Grenoble, and (later) ISIS, Didcot, UK.

@DirtyDan; I am not into Robotics (or rather Mechantronics in the new parlance). I am essentially into Instrumentation (LabVIEW is the platform) and amongst other things have developed Hot Axle Detectors for the Railways, totally revamped the control system for a 1992 vintage Track Fatigue Testing Machine, and over a decade ago developed a replacement automatic test rig for the Head-up display of Jaguar Fighters for a Defence Industry. Also, succesfully developed Thermal Analysers in the mid-90's.