[Astleviz]

Originally Posted by zenx

Actually - a lot of Europe is moving to pedestrian-primary (and next, cyclists) right of way rules. Jaywalking ceases to have any meaning in this context, and the onus of safety moves to the ones who can actually cause the damage, which is logical.

Can you cite one european country country where pedestrians can cross the road whereever they want, whenever they want?

The onus of safety relies on the individual, you cannot expect to break the law and expect others to take care of you.

Having said that, I hate honking and do it when I absolutely must. In a larger context, we should be talking about noise pollution and not make it into a pedestrian vs drivers issue. When I drive, I always park my car at a proper parking space and then walk up tp wherever I am supposed to go, and during that time I too am a pedestrian. I may not walk as much as you do, but I do walk. And trust me, the horns are the least of my worries, it's those hawkers who encroach upon the pavements where I am supposed to walk, it's those uncivil people who create filth on those pavements by spitting and tossing their rubbish wherever they want. It's those religious monuments that use their blaring loudspeakers at any time of the day.

And trust me, it's not just the pedestrians who bear the brunt of those douchebags with a horn fetish. Almost everyday, I find myself at a traffic signal, waiting for the signal to turn green and there is this guy in his much more expensive car honking away to glory. There are times when one has to use a horn and there are times when one doesn't. And the ability to know the difference is what civic sense is all about. It's not really about pedestrians vs drivers, it's really about the civil and the imbeciles, no matter whether they are in a car or on foot.

[zenx]

Originally Posted by Astleviz

Can you cite one european country country where pedestrians can cross the road whereever they want, whenever they want?

The onus of safety relies on the individual, you cannot expect to break the law and expect others to take care of you.

First up - thanks. We need more drivers to be like you on the road.

Nobody's making the case that pedestrians should not use common sense in staying out of harms way while crossing the road (not cogent to this discussion, though)

As for the pedestrian-primary street rules (framed right, they're not breaking any laws! - these should help:

Jaywalking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (look for United Kingdom)
http://bit.ly/w6TYFq
Streetfilms | Copenhagen’s Car-Free Streets & Slow-Speed Zones
EU - Road safety - Road engineering
Traffic calming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WALKABLE Dallas-Fort Worth: Livability Indicator #15 - Jaywalking

More and more, Europe is moving to progressive, human-centric traffic rules at least in high human density/residential areas. Most of Bangalore can be considered to be this.

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by zenx

Request from a pedestrian to all drivers: PLEASE use your horns as little as possible.

Yeah, we are a horn-y nation, aren't we? I guess that explains the 2nd largest population.

On a serious note, this malaise is now so deep rooted that I guess with most drivers [2, 3, 4 wheelers], using the horn has become 2nd nature - something that they do without thinking. IMO, there are very few instances in our daily drive where a horn is really needed. I can think of only 1 - on a blind turn, to alert approaching traffic about my presence, even if I've slowed down. This too can be avoided at night by flashing the headlights.

I look forward to the day when I can hear myself think while driving, but I guess that will remain a pipe dream in our country.

Cheers,
Vikram

[Astleviz]

Originally Posted by zenx

First up - thanks. We need more drivers to be like you on the road.

Nobody's making the case that pedestrians should not use common sense in staying out of harms way while crossing the road (not cogent to this discussion, though)

As for the pedestrian-primary street rules (framed right, they're not breaking any laws! - these should help:

Jaywalking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (look for United Kingdom)
http://bit.ly/w6TYFq
Streetfilms | Copenhagen’s Car-Free Streets & Slow-Speed Zones
EU - Road safety - Road engineering
Traffic calming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WALKABLE Dallas-Fort Worth: Livability Indicator #15 - Jaywalking

More and more, Europe is moving to progressive, human-centric traffic rules at least in high human density/residential areas. Most of Bangalore can be considered to be this.

None of these links endorse the fact that pedestrians have a right to cross wherever they want, wherever they want without caring two hoots about the laws. All they are mentioning is that many countries are creating several zones/ safety areas to make life safer and more comfortable for the pedestrians. In this country, since there are no such initiatives by the concerned authorities, the onus is on the pedestrians and drivers to obey the laws, and the law is that they must use a zebra crossing and only when the lights are red for the upcoming traffic. When the light is green and the driver is following the speed limit and the traffic laws and if some idiot decided to cross the road, the driver has 2 options, to honk to warn the pedestrian or to cause a traffic collision. I prefer to honk.

[wanderluster]

Unfortunately, apart from pedestrians, stray animals also face the brunt of impatient drivers and blaring horns on the road too.

Stray cattle on the road are not human - they don't understand what a horn is and I have seen it happen in front of my eyes many times when an impatient driver blares his horn believing that its his or her right of way and the poor animal gets startled and runs into traffic getting grievously injured - or even killed.

I gave my driver a earful the other day when a cow was crossing the road and he kept driving blaring the horn thinking that the cow, like any pedestrian would see the car and wait till it passed and cross - well it did'nt and the car's mirror hit it. I was very upset with what had happened and could just about imagine what animals could be going through in our country where we have some of the most impatient and irresponsible drivers. Dog's have it even worse - a stray dog's an average lifespan is just 3 years (its normally 12-13).

[rohanjf]

Most of the pedestrians, bikers and rickshaw drivers do not understand the dynamics of a car. They assume that cars also handle the way their body or vehicle handles. It takes a flick of the wrist for a bike/rickshaw to turn 45 degrees and that happens in half a second. They expect the same from a car. And they expect the car to stop in a second, irrespective of its speed.

And add to that, our authorities cannot provide decent footpaths, despite having 90% of the population on foot daily.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by zenx

Oh, and add some patience to it - I have complete right of way.

Yes, the pedestrian does, in a ZEBRA crossing, not wherever he pleases. It is the good sense of the vehicle driver that he brakes, which most of us do, in other places.

Originally Posted by Rudra Sen

In India, we've lost the meaning or sense of the word HORN. Horn is a part of our driving. We use it to show frustration, anger, impatience and what have we.

Oh yes. The louder the horn, the slightly better chance you have of a pedestrian/other road users hearing you.

Originally Posted by zenx

Yep. The driver of the object that can cause the damage must take responsibility for the safety of those around.

Which explains why whenever an accident happens involving a car and a rickshaw, the car driver is taken to task by the people around the scene. I understand your frustration, I have felt it too, but isn't the fault in everyone of us, whether we are pedestrians/2 wheeler maniacs/4 wheeler nouveau rich guys ?

[rajeev k]

With all pedestrians and those on two & four wheelers always on the communication mode horns need to get more louder.

[RIC.BURNS]

Do you know if you happened to not even hit, startle a pedestrian/cyclist they start with why didnt you Honk (louder)?

I have seen a gazillions of incidents that require Honk to whatever infront of me. Tell me,

Do they turn their heads and see before moving to the right inside traffic say to avoid a ditch/another person?
Do they wait and cross instead of crossing/running infront a standing bus?
Do they cross after seeing the needed direction on the expressway through the guard rail cracks?
Do they wait and cross in a signal?
Do they wait on the curb and talk on the cellphone instead of frantically running across?


A big NO! I prefer to HONK those idiots.
How do you want me to tell them that they have to respect a much bigger vehicle? Believe me one has to honk if they are on a four or more wheeler, be it highway or traffic. I have a bike, its horn doesn't work and i don't need that either in any kind of traffic but is a complete different story when on a car.

I always honk when over taking a truck or any vehicle on the highway day or night, because i don't want my car to show up in Accidents in India thread and anyone to say RIP to my soul.

I dont know somehow thinking of not honking to pedestrians/cyclists/bikers getting on to my nerves, i have had real bad experiences. I have once hit a pregnant woman on my bike reason she was crossing the main road without seeing the traffic, by god's grace nothing happened to her as it was just a hit on her arm and it still haunts me whenever i think about it. I prefer to hurt their ears a little rather than having them under my car.

However, if you are talking about honking in a complete residential area/Hospital/school count me first in the queue.

[mayankjha1806]

I believed i am sort of driver who would never need to use horn, except when someone else made some mistake. In Bangalore drives i usually only need to honk once a day (which is good considering the number of times you see folks jumping on road without any indication).

Last week travel to Raipur changed all that, If you want to continue to drive at speeds above 5 you need to honk, unless you honk the rikshawwala, cyclewala, autowala will not give you way even if there is ample space on the road for me to pass if he was driving properly.

Took me 2 days to realize this, since then i constantly had one hand on the horn, have never honked so much in my entire 9 years in banglore.

[benbsb29]

Dear pedestrian, while you may have right of way, do not forget that as a mere mortal, if you do get struck down, you stand no chance. Think of the grief your loved ones would go through if that were to happen. It's better to be safe than sorry and feel you have the right of way.

Also, 4 people walking side-by-side intrudes into whatever little os left of the road, so please take notice.

[zenx]

Some observations from the responses on this thread

1. A lot many people did not read the post/get the context. I repeat, MOST honking is not motorist->pedestrian, but motorist->motorist. I'm not talking about vehicle-pedestrian intersections, lawful or otherwise (though I have differing views on that) at all - but about the pointless noise generated, when better use of the car's capabilities (read better driving) would do instead. Hurts the ears needlessly

2. The sense of entitlement to the road, and the automobile-primary thinking is mind-numbing. People, including myself, by and large drive over the speed limit, don't/can't necessarily follow lanes strictly, etc etc. In return, I get defensive around other people, esp slower drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc. And to all those who say its NOT possible to drive in Bangalore safely without the use of the horn, I strongly disagree. Try it - I got into this mode since I started cycling and it has worked beautifully for me and I do not take more time than earlier.

In any case, outside of all the arguments, the idea was to appeal to folks to reduce the honking caused noise on the road as much as the can - it'll help me and other pedestrians. Its a request, and once tried might actually reduce driving stress as its done for me.

3. Everyone else is at fault. Pedestrians - who often need to walk on the road (walking alongside, not across it - no zebras for that, right?) - are all morons. The fact that 90% of fatalities in Bangalore are pedestrians does not raise any need for drivers with better control. Even in the few places pedestrians crossings do exist/are convenient, you'd be hard pressed to see vehicles not standing on them while waiting at lights. Same goes for people leaving early on greens and pushing the envelope of reds.

@Astleviz - read those links again. The UK has no real definition of jaywalking on non-expressways, and the onus is on drivers to watch out. As I said earlier, does not give the pedestrian a license to be an idiot in the face of an oncoming vehicle, but still requires the driver to be more cautious and take greater responsibility for his/her tonne of metal. And across Europe (esp Denmark) more and more such laws, and interpretation, is gaining ground. Free pedestrian/cyclist movement has often led to safer, slower traffic.

Anyhow - outside of all the arguments - the idea of the thread was to appeal to drivers to try reduce to honking-related-noise as much as they can. It'll help all those outside the soundproof zones.

[condor]

Originally Posted by zenx

Yep. The driver of the object that can cause the damage must take responsibility for the safety of those around.

Not quite. If you look at explanations of road users & RoW, then the pedestrian has a RoW on the crossing - primarily when the crossing is allowed. Just like the footpath is meant for pedestrians, the road is meant for vehicles. Each party has areas designated for him. RoW comes in common areas like intersections, and the pedestrian has an area & time he can use. During the time the pedestrian is given, the vehicles need to wait.

If each party follows the rules he is supposed to abide by, the road will be safe for every one.

I dont honk at a pedestrian who's walking on the footpath. Do you ? .

But in India, you have people walking on the road instead. The thinking is - I am only using a small part of the road - the vehicle has the rest of place for himself. Let him go that way. (And the pedestrian wont even realise that the honking is for him. Even if the honking was to tell him that he is moving dangerously close to the vehicle/path of the vehicle). The honking is to tell him to be more careful & avoid problems for every one.

I remember one accident ruling in the US - the pedestrian was held guilty even though the car hit him. Simple reason - the pedestrian was not in the zebra crossing - but was crossing at an un-designated point.

EDIT:
@Zenx, I did not read your post above before I posted this.
But, I still think my point regarding honking holds. Auto's/ Two wheelers zip around with gay abandon. They dont see if there is space for them to move where they want to. They dont see if that space will still be available till they complete their "manouvre". Most of them dont even have RVM's. Of those who do, only some have it aligned & ready for use, and even lesser who actually use it. The general thinking is - there is space, let me move there, & let the vehicle coming from behind stay behind me, no matter what speed he himself is doing.

The person often does not realise that in case of an accident, the drivers of the smaller vehicle is more vulnerable. But the society puts the responsibility on the driver of the bigger vehicle.

The honking has to be done to tell /warn the two wheeler that he is coming dangerously close to the path of the bigger vehicle. When the bigger vehicle honks, he is often trying to help the smaller vehicle - for both to be safe.

1. The two wheelers just dont realise how vulnerable they are.
2. They over-estimate their speed & "agility'
3. They under-estimate the space & time they need to complete the manouvre
4. They under-estimate the space the bigger vehicle needs - both for straight line & turning.
5. They think they can squeeze through gaps before the bigger vehicle even realises that the bike is there !
6. They dont realise that it is also possible to - "squeeze in & get squeezed" .
7. They dont realise that two bigger vehicles can actually come closer even in a straight path (due to other obstacles the bigger vehicles face - and the ones that this guy is not even aware of !)
8. They over-estimate their visibility to the bigger vehicles. They possibly dont even know of "blind spots"


Note / Disclaimer:
I am not referring to maniacs on the road, but of that group of normal drivers of bigger vehicles who want a safe road experience.

[Rudra Sen]

Originally Posted by zenx

1. A lot many people did not read the post/get the context. I repeat, MOST honking is not motorist->pedestrian, but motorist->motorist. I'm not talking about vehicle-pedestrian intersections, lawful or otherwise (though I have differing views on that) at all - but about the pointless noise generated, when better use of the car's capabilities (read better driving) would do instead. Hurts the ears needlessly

I felt (or still feel?) the same. But didn't get any response from your reply after that.

So I said..

Originally Posted by Rudra Sen

I don't think (or feel) that this thread should only be from a pedestrian's point.
It's the use of that HORN we do so indiscriminately. Sameer, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[akshay380]

While I hate honking, how do I tell that moron driving in middle lane on ORR, with the OVRMs folded that you want to overtake him? There is a 100% chance that do will do a right turn without any signal whatsoever.
How do I awake that fool who is riding towards me in wrong lane talking on mobile?

As a cyclist I face this discrimination many times riding on OMR in leftmost lane and still people honk to let them squeeze though.

I agree with someone who said using horn is just to get rid of our anxiety. It serves no purpose, but still I see people starting to honk the moment signal turns green. The traffic ethics in this country are going to dogs.