Traffic Challan on a Sold Car

kousik · 27th January 2012, 13:06

Yes; definitely we have to make sure we notify the change of ownership to RTO when we sell our vehicle.

But my case is a little different, and hence seeking advice.

Last year I "exchanged" my 10 yrs old Wagon-R with a Ritz, at Maruti True Value. At Bimal dealership in Old Airport road Bangalore, if it matters. The problem of selling to True Value is obvious, there's no new owner to register it right away. All the formalities are done from my side (all papers signed, including delivery note), and now the car has to wait in the showroom for a new owner, or whatever way Maruti wants to dispose it off. It's been close to an year now, and last week I got a challan for 100/- by post because the driver of the car was talking on mobile during driving.

Possibilities are: (1) The car is out in the wild, so is sold now. But new owner (and True value) didn't register. (2) It might have been out for a test drive (location of the offence is not too far from Bimal showroom) by a potential buyer. (3) The cop wrongly noted the number (not impossible but unlikely).

What should be my action in such a case? Perhaps the best I can do is when passing by Bimal some day, I can hand over the notice and ask them to worry about it? Is there any way I can communicate to RTO that I sold the car to <UNKNOWN> on <date>? But whom do they send the notice then? :-)

Kousik

shankar.balan · 27th January 2012, 13:21

When you sell your car through an used car dealership of some repute, such as Bimal or True Value, they take the responsibility to transfer the ownership to the new buyer of the car.
You can and should catch them and ask them what on earth is going on! Make them pay the fine and get them to have the vehicle re-registered.
Unless of course the vehicle has not been sold and the traffic challan happened on a test drive. In which case, True Value are liable. Use the date and time of the Challan to lodge a formal complaint with them and get them to take the right actions!

sdp1975 · 27th January 2012, 13:32

Check for the ownership details on VAHAN

See also http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-all-rtos.html

fine69 · 27th January 2012, 13:41

What if this wasn't a challan but some serious criminal offence was committed using your car? (god forbid but for the sake of argument). Would the cops take you away straight or whatever documents you have with you are sufficient for them to go to the dealership instead?

How can there be no owner of a car at any point of time. You are legally owner of the car and I'm assuming responsible for it also, isn't it?

kousik · 27th January 2012, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdp1975

Check for the ownership details on VAHAN

I don't know if details are available to Vahan, but a quick lookup in BTIS - Bangalore Transport Information System shows the vehicle ownership in our name. And since the notice came home just last week I assume as per latest record, the owner is still us. I guess I'll take Shankar's advice and hand over the notice to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fine69

How can there be no owner of a car at any point of time. You are legally owner of the car and I'm assuming responsible for it also, isn't it?

Theoretically yes. And that's where all the confusion begins. When you sell to second-hand dealer, they don't change the ownership to their own name immediately. They do it directly to the new buyer, which can take weeks/months/years? In the mean time, though my name is in RTO records, I am sitting on a delivery note. Maybe it'll save my skin but not without some harassment.

Now I wonder if they renewed the insurance. If they had a major accident during a test drive ... woah.

Am I the only one who's facing such issue? 1000s of people sell to second hand dealerships, and by statistics, I can't be the first guy to whom such a thing happened.

sdp1975 · 27th January 2012, 14:03

Details on Vahan are more updated than BTIS records in my experience - my transferred bike shows on Vahan but not BTIS.

Traffic challans are , unfortunately , issued by the police based on BTIS records - and may not necessarily reflect the latest ownership.

There's no harm in checking the details on Vahan, although there's no guarantee that the results will be absolutely accurate.

fine69 · 27th January 2012, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kousik

Am I the only one who's facing such issue? 1000s of people sell to second hand dealerships, and by statistics, I can't be the first guy to whom such a thing happened.

I think a mere 100 rupees challan is enough to educate you, myself and all other team-bhp readers that we much be extremely careful when exercising such deals.

If I'm to be the owner of a car it better be with me or somebody so close that I'm ready to go through decent harassment (or more) for that person.

KiloAlpha · 27th January 2012, 15:23

In this situation, for a challan that comes through post, what is the dispute procedure? Can anyone enlighten us?

The procedure is a little more straight forward for more serious accident cases, though.

When my aunt exchanged her Premier Padmini for a Maruti 800, she sold her old car through a dealer. The buyer of the Padmini was present for the deal too, and he drove the car away later in the day. She got a receipt and delivery note from the dealer.

A few months later, cops came around to her place because her old car was involved in a hit-and-run causing serious injury to a pedestrian. She just gave the receipt and delivery note to the Inspector in the police station along with a statement. We did not hear back from the cops after that.

esteem_lover · 27th January 2012, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kousik

When you sell to second-hand dealer, they don't change the ownership to their own name immediately. They do it directly to the new buyer, which can take weeks/months/years? In the mean time, though my name is in RTO records, I am sitting on a delivery note. Maybe it'll save my skin but not without some harassment.

When you give your car to a dealer, it is advisable to not sign blank T.O forms and other papers, rather insist on the dealer giving it to you in writing that he is taking possession of the car for sale purposes ( I am sure you can make a legal document for this). Also do not take the entire money promised, make it a part of the deal that you take x amount in advance and the remaining (could be as low as 5k also) after the sale has been finalised and the documents signed. It is never acceptable to sign blank T.O forms and take a delivery note signed by someone else who is not the owner. Would not stand up in a court of law.

kousik · 27th January 2012, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

When you give your car to a dealer, it is advisable to not sign blank T.O forms and other papers, rather insist on the dealer giving it to you in writing that he is taking possession of the car for sale purposes ( I am sure you can make a legal document for this).

I wonder whether that'd put me in a better situation when the dealer breaks a law (especially in a serious way) during a test drive with a prospective buyer. Either way, if I signed blank TO forms or not, in RTO books, I am still the owner of the car. When cops knock my door, which document will convince them better. As noted above, somewhere the delivery note worked.

Well I should have known better. And maybe we can add a section in "How to sell your car" article to avoid such a situation. There may be a way in law to make you not liable for such incidents. But again, these True value people also have their way of working, it may be hard to negotiate a different one. If they can't find you when their actual sale happens, they'd be in a soup, no?

libranof1987 · 27th January 2012, 16:19

Okay, here's what I'm thinking.

Just as we lodge (or try to lodge) a police complaint when we lose a cell phone to absolve us of any liability from the use of the phone for illegal activities; can something similar be done once we sell our vehicles are sold to car dealerships?

In all probability, the car dealership might not find a buyer immediately and a delivery note might not be enough to keep off liability.

So, is there any way we can have an official document with the RTO/Police mentioning that the car has been sold?

Will save people like kousik a lot of hassle.

bluevolt · 27th January 2012, 16:24

When we sold our M800 to Maruti True Value way back in March 2007 they issued a certificate which states that 'We (Maruti True Value) is responsible for all future insurance, accident, challans, thefts etc'. I can put a scan copy if any one wants it.

Didn't you got similar disclaimer from them?

Klub Class · 27th January 2012, 16:32

A small correction :

Quote:

Originally Posted by kousik

And maybe we can add a section in "How to sell your car" article to avoid such a situation.

We do have very informative threads on 'How to sell an used car in India' and 'How to buy an used car in India'

Link : How to sell a car in India

kousik · 27th January 2012, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluevolt

When we sold our M800 to Maruti True Value way back in March 2007 they issued a certificate which states that 'We (Maruti True Value) is responsible for all future insurance, accident, challans, thefts etc'. I can put a scan copy if any one wants it.

Didn't you got similar disclaimer from them?

I didn't look at the documents recently, only thing I remember is the delivery note. Now that you mention it, when I reach home, I'll search for it. If I don't find any, looks like I have to visit the dealership, to get one such disclaimer (maybe they'll deny because it is one year old, but I'll take a chance), and pass on the fine notice. Thanks for a good pointer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klub Class

A small correction :
We do have very informative threads on 'How to sell an used car in India' and 'How to buy an used car in India'

I was referring to that only; in case it doesn't have a section which warns of similar pitfalls, maybe we can add one "what extra precaution/disclaimer to take when you sell to second hand dealership".

mayankjha1806 · 27th January 2012, 17:00

When i sold my Indica in 2008 i received letter from the used car dealer that all future Insurance and other expenses on the car is his responsibility along with receipt of sale. He sold the car to another buyer a few months later but never updated us on anything. When i check on the web site i now know the car has been transferred.

My guess if the documentation is proper its safe to assume when the car is placed at some dealer he is responsible for payment all of traffic violations. I would recommend to go to the police with all the evidence and receipt and ask the cops to clear your name.

27th January 2012, 13:06	#1
kousik BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 202 Thanked: 59 Times View My Garage	Traffic Challan on a Sold Car Yes; definitely we have to make sure we notify the change of ownership to RTO when we sell our vehicle. But my case is a little different, and hence seeking advice. Last year I "exchanged" my 10 yrs old Wagon-R with a Ritz, at Maruti True Value. At Bimal dealership in Old Airport road Bangalore, if it matters. The problem of selling to True Value is obvious, there's no new owner to register it right away. All the formalities are done from my side (all papers signed, including delivery note), and now the car has to wait in the showroom for a new owner, or whatever way Maruti wants to dispose it off. It's been close to an year now, and last week I got a challan for 100/- by post because the driver of the car was talking on mobile during driving. Possibilities are: (1) The car is out in the wild, so is sold now. But new owner (and True value) didn't register. (2) It might have been out for a test drive (location of the offence is not too far from Bimal showroom) by a potential buyer. (3) The cop wrongly noted the number (not impossible but unlikely). What should be my action in such a case? Perhaps the best I can do is when passing by Bimal some day, I can hand over the notice and ask them to worry about it? Is there any way I can communicate to RTO that I sold the car to <UNKNOWN> on <date>? But whom do they send the notice then? :-) Kousik
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 13:21	#2
shankar.balan BANNED Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 11,368 Thanked: 23,150 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/2 (8)	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car When you sell your car through an used car dealership of some repute, such as Bimal or True Value, they take the responsibility to transfer the ownership to the new buyer of the car. You can and should catch them and ask them what on earth is going on! Make them pay the fine and get them to have the vehicle re-registered. Unless of course the vehicle has not been sold and the traffic challan happened on a test drive. In which case, True Value are liable. Use the date and time of the Challan to lodge a formal complaint with them and get them to take the right actions!
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 13:32	#3
sdp1975 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,700 Thanked: 1,273 Times View My Garage	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car Check for the ownership details on VAHAN See also http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-all-rtos.html
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 13:41	#4
fine69 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New Delhi Posts: 1,591 Thanked: 1,467 Times	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car What if this wasn't a challan but some serious criminal offence was committed using your car? (god forbid but for the sake of argument). Would the cops take you away straight or whatever documents you have with you are sufficient for them to go to the dealership instead? How can there be no owner of a car at any point of time. You are legally owner of the car and I'm assuming responsible for it also, isn't it?
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 14:03	#6
sdp1975 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,700 Thanked: 1,273 Times View My Garage	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car Details on Vahan are more updated than BTIS records in my experience - my transferred bike shows on Vahan but not BTIS. Traffic challans are , unfortunately , issued by the police based on BTIS records - and may not necessarily reflect the latest ownership. There's no harm in checking the details on Vahan, although there's no guarantee that the results will be absolutely accurate. Last edited by sdp1975 : 27th January 2012 at 14:07.
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 15:23	#8
KiloAlpha Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Cubicle Posts: 1,605 Thanked: 3,002 Times	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car In this situation, for a challan that comes through post, what is the dispute procedure? Can anyone enlighten us? The procedure is a little more straight forward for more serious accident cases, though. When my aunt exchanged her Premier Padmini for a Maruti 800, she sold her old car through a dealer. The buyer of the Padmini was present for the deal too, and he drove the car away later in the day. She got a receipt and delivery note from the dealer. A few months later, cops came around to her place because her old car was involved in a hit-and-run causing serious injury to a pedestrian. She just gave the receipt and delivery note to the Inspector in the police station along with a statement. We did not hear back from the cops after that.
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 16:19	#11
libranof1987 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over! Posts: 7,615 Thanked: 18,343 Times	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car Okay, here's what I'm thinking. Just as we lodge (or try to lodge) a police complaint when we lose a cell phone to absolve us of any liability from the use of the phone for illegal activities; can something similar be done once we sell our vehicles are sold to car dealerships? In all probability, the car dealership might not find a buyer immediately and a delivery note might not be enough to keep off liability. So, is there any way we can have an official document with the RTO/Police mentioning that the car has been sold? Will save people like kousik a lot of hassle.
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 16:24	#12
bluevolt Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New Delhi Posts: 3,274 Thanked: 3,474 Times View My Garage	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car When we sold our M800 to Maruti True Value way back in March 2007 they issued a certificate which states that 'We (Maruti True Value) is responsible for all future insurance, accident, challans, thefts etc'. I can put a scan copy if any one wants it. Didn't you got similar disclaimer from them?
	() Thanks

27th January 2012, 17:00	#15
mayankjha1806 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,160 Thanked: 978 Times View My Garage	Re: Traffic Challan on a Sold Car When i sold my Indica in 2008 i received letter from the used car dealer that all future Insurance and other expenses on the car is his responsibility along with receipt of sale. He sold the car to another buyer a few months later but never updated us on anything. When i check on the web site i now know the car has been transferred. My guess if the documentation is proper its safe to assume when the car is placed at some dealer he is responsible for payment all of traffic violations. I would recommend to go to the police with all the evidence and receipt and ask the cops to clear your name.
	() Thanks