[TD_GHY]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

I don't judge anyone by their appearance or profession, because life has taught me that there are more gentlemen among who look shabby than among the dressed up.

True words Sir. Today, every second politician dresses up in the cleanest of the lot WHITE Indian cloth (khadi and kurta pyjama intead of suits unlike their British counterparts) to show their love for India and Indian culture, but we know what they are within. While the farmers and daily wage laborers are the shabbiest of the lot, yet they contribute more to the nation than us or the people's representatives. Somehow we have forgotten to look inside and value only the outside appearance of people.

[Neil Roy]

My 2 cents.
Recently, my friend went to ITC factory in Chennai outskirts clad in shorts. The factory personnel were polite, but firm in insisting that he wear trousers(not jeans) prior to meeting the MD. My friend is a naturalised US citizen on a business trip to India and he says that he has never faced such insistence of dress code anywhere before.
Call it bias or ignorance, but we have learnt to live with it. How many of us have called toll free numbers and spoken to voices on the phone who just ask the routine questions and issue reference numbers without even bothering to understand our complaint or our frustrations? IN such cases we just play the system because we know that losing our temper to call center voices are usually counter productive.
My take is that if we try to work around the private system, why not have the same attitude towards govt personnel, instead of being worked up and demanding our rights. Try demanding your rights to any call center and you will be put on a very long hold and another voice will ask the same question from the start
Fact is, earrings, shorts, dyed hair etc sends out the wrong kind of vibe which govt personnel feel is rebellious and questioning their authority. Unless that is your intention, just play the system and get your work done, because that is what made you go to them in the first place, No offence to anyone. Peace.

[AWD]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Point No 1. Getting the Babu to mend his ways. Absolutely without question. But is wearing shorts the right way? In my book, it is not.

Point No 2. I do speak against these Babus. And yes, from the comfort of home. But you cannot say I do nothing about it. You don't know me. I do pay my taxes, I vote, The problem is that I am less than one drop in the ocean and hence my frustration.

Point No 3. Maybe the new emerging India is not ready to be marauded. Please realise one thing. Lesser mortals than the powers that be, have been marauded for centuries and will continue to be marauded. Do you think the Political-Real Estate nexus is not marauding the common man today? We pay taxes, India is prosperous, but all the money is vanishing into the pockets of politicians and babus. We pay for so much, yet we get so little back. Litter everywhere, crumbling infrastructure, no public facilities, broken roads, poor planning, poor quality of public services etc. So don't tell me we aren't getting marauded right now.
Sadly, the only way as I said before, is via education at grassroots level. And this will take a few more generations to come to fruition.

Point No 4: Is it wrong to expect things to work, when you pay for them?
Do you think our great politicians are doing anything differently from the Mughals and Brits and whoever else have bled this land?

The only thing that can trigger a change now, is a serious Revolution against the regime(s). I'd be surprised if I see this change in my lifetime.

1) So there we both agree that the Babu needs to mend his ways, on the OP my views differ as the constitution grants him his rights & its his own sweet will.

2) Don't get me wrong here but from what has come across, it makes me think that you pay taxes because of the fear of the IT dept. & not because you owe them or you want to contribute for Nation building. Please read further, there's nothing wrong with this too because you are right the taxes are not used for the purposes they are intended for. As an old saying goes '“You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the entire ocean in a drop", We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less because of that missing drop".

3) Correct the common man has always been marauded, but does that mean we do nothing about it or do not raise a voice against it? On the Politico-real estate nexus, a news channel recently took up the issue & you already see the effort bearing positive results. Had no one raked it up, spoken about it, innocent people would have continued to reel under it. Yes I see the rot all around but the difference is Im ready to fight against it & not be individualistic & thrust upon an idea that says, "do nothing about it, don't have time for it, its a waste of energy"! Again agreed education can change things but now put it into another perspective, we here are an educated lot & probably well aware too, but what sort of an image is projecting out of the so called educated lot, that get your done by hook or by crook & a devil may care attitude towards the society. Shouldn't we be a collective voice against the evils ?

4) Thats the point Im trying to make ever since, yes expect, ask, question & fight to get things done when you pay for them. Raise your voice & not throttle the voices of your fellow citizens who try to fight against the rot. Be supportive of anyone who raises a voice against the rot. Try to spread awareness about things, individualistic ideas which do not help the society in any way would do no good to the public at large, our actions should be in the direction which uplifts the society, then & only then if we lambast the system, will our voices be upheld. Get your own works done & the society be damned sort of attitudes will not help the society in any way.

Correct we need nothing short of a social revolution to change things around but that doesnt mean that we emphasise on view points that are completely contrary to what needs to be done. From the point where we stand, we should be encouraging social changes in which ever way we can. To begin with lets support every little voice that is raised against the corrupt, rotten, failure of a system.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by AWD

1) So there we both agree that the Babu needs to mend his ways, on the OP my views differ as the constitution grants him his rights & its his own sweet will.

2) Don't get me wrong here but from what has come across, it makes me think that you pay taxes because of the fear of the IT dept. & not because you owe them or you want to contribute for Nation building.

3) Correct the common man has always been marauded, but does that mean we do nothing about it or do not raise a voice against it? Yes I see the rot all around but the difference is Im ready to fight against it & not be individualistic & thrust upon an idea that says, "do nothing about it, don't have time for it, its a waste of energy"! Shouldn't we be a collective voice against the evils ?

4) Raise your voice & not throttle the voices of your fellow citizens who try to fight against the rot. Be supportive of anyone who raises a voice against the rot.

Against my will, I reply to this because I don't like being unfairly judged.

Point No 1:Yes the Babu needs to mend his ways. But this won't be achieved by confronting him in "Shorts".

Point No 2: I pay my taxes because it is my duty. I pay my taxes because also of TDS and I have precious little power to stop those taxes from being cut. But I hate that I have to pay 1/3rd of my income to the absolute despicable Indian System, because as an individual or as a family or as a part of a salaried group of people I get absolutely NOTHING in return. I hate this damnable situation, being caught in a cleft stick with no choice! Pardon me, but none of the taxes we pay go towards Nation Building. They go towards "Politician Dadagiri" and "Building the coffers of Scum Indian MLA's, MLC's and Politicians and Political Parties". Thats the system that I hate absolutely.
However, do we have the power to change this by ourselves without the great masses of India being made aware through education? No we don't. Sadly yes, but despite our Voting and Activism and all the rest of it, we are a small voice lost in the Wind! That doesn't stop me screaming. But I choose not to do my screaming by wearing shorts and landing up at the RTO just to prove a point with some absolute cad and bounder who is absolutely uneducated and absolutely full of his Tin God Powers! Thats a battle I won't win in this way, so Id rather fight intelligently, rather than be a Don Quixote!

Point No 3: You don't have some kind of monopoly on "fighting the system" - we all do, in our own ways. Just probably not by confronting the stupid system by wearing shorts and inviting the said system to walk all over one. Of course I will be individualistic when I have to. Does the great "State" pay for anything which I can benefit from, with my taxes? If I fall ill (god forbid) will the blasted "State" look after me on the "Healthcare"? Do they look after "Education" and basic amenities from the taxes I pay? No, I have to be individualistic because if at all I need to look after myself and my own, then I shall need to pay for it on my own steam - despite my paying 1/3rd of my earnings to this Blasted State!

Is it unreasonable then, to be angry or irritated? Boss, I am not a Saint, nor am I an aspiring Politician or "Selfless Soul". Yes, I am selfish, simply because I have no other choice if I am to survive my lifetime. Luckily I don't have kids who have to go through the same crappy system!
I am a part of the collective voice as you put it, by my blogging, social media, keeping my eyes open and trying my best to help those who need it, because the stinking Government won't. For example, all the poor - those who serve us at home - they indeed get absolutely nothing from the disgusting despicable politicians - we on the other hand, look after them like family. And this is after paying our taxes. So it is in some sense a triple whammy where we are always the guys who are out of pocket!

Point No 4: Who is throttling anyone's voice? Don't make silly accusatory, holier than thou statements of this kind. If you want to raise your voice by wearing shorts and t shirt, go for it. Just let me and others who think and act the way that I do, do what we think is right, just the same way that you are absolutely free to do as you please!

ENDIT. Because you have absolutely NO right to make assumptions and judge others when you don't know the half of the facts about them. So kindly desist from those kinds of remarks.

[alphadog]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

How people dress is first and foremost their own choice. Not up to me to call it casual, vulgar or any other name. There is no accounting for taste and taste is very personal.

I strongly believe that public offices can't and shouldn't be allowed to differentiate how they deal with the public based on what they wear.

Having said that, I agree with some other members that you might consider dressing up for other reasons.

People the world over are, very often unconsciously, sensitive to appearances. Right or wrong, that's how it is.

You show up sharply dressed you are likely to get more attention. It shouldn't make a difference but it does! In all honesty, I have no qualms about making use of it. You decide to treat me differently because I Wear a suit and tie over somebody wearing shorts and a T-shirts, that is your decision.

Whenever I have to visit any Indian official I will put on a suit and tie. Gets you through the crowds, it's like Moses parting the Red Sea.

Public servants anywhere in the world respond better to someone in a suit and tie then T-shirts and flip flops. Not fair, I would be the first to agree. But it's an unfair to start with. These officials have things or can do things to me I'm totally dependent on. I have to register with the RTO, there is no alternative. I need a drivers license and there is only one place to get it etc.

So I put on my suit and tie, put a big pleasant smile on my face when I enter these official office. If they want to treat me better, deal with me faster because of how I look the joke is on them.

Principle incorrect but I can't be bother to fight for my principle to wear what I please. It's easier to dress up for an hour and think I outsmart all those public servants!

The above is very much about dealing with officials, public servants etc. Some comments were also made around businesses and dress codes. I was very surprised to find out the other day we had a dress code and in a recent employee survey, most of our staff felt the need to have a dress code enforced. I dont like these sort of policies. Policies are often management just not doing their job of enforcing just normal common sense. I don't want to see policies that I believe deal with what I can just expect from individuals as common sense, appropriate behaviour and such.

You don't understand you need to dress appropriately for a customer meting, you need a policy to tell you what to wear, you are going to have a huge problem with me. Because to me, professional people understand that sort of stuff without it being written down in policies. It's not, like the above, about free individual choice, you are representing the company. Learn to deal with it, or resign and find a different employer.

Jeroen

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

You're welcome Sir to do just as you please.
If this is your attitude to getting your work done at public places, then I will only wish you luck. Because in all probability you will be the victim of disrespect and possibly ridicule and most certainly will not be taken as seriously as perhaps you may wish to be, given the type of people that staff these places.

Where does "Freedom" and all the rest of the hyperbole come into it?
All we are talking about here is a simple dress code and decorum in a public office or at a "formal sort of place". Some of the expected norms of dress, while they may seem "conformist" "non questioning" and "ill suited for the climate", unfortunately, have become well entrenched in the mind sets of people. Dressing properly tends to pour oil on situations and provides, to an extent the requisite lubrication for "efficiency" and "speed" in getting your work done.

Personally I think that my time would be better utilised by getting my work done quickly and efficiently by conforming to a sort of "predictable non confrontationist dress code" rather than my spending valuable time and wasting it, by tilting at windmills in the form of these Babus. I'd rather get my license renewed quietly and walk away, so as to never have to see that Babu's ugly mug for the next 10 years, rather than try and bait him and irritate him and thus, get entangled in the worst sort of Red Tape reinforced Babudom that dear old India is famous for, on account of something perfectly silly, like wearing shorts and trying to fight for my personal rights in the matter of "dress".

Choose your battles wisely, so you can win them, is a piece of Wisdom that is worth following.

In this case, the Battle that I want to Win, is simply getting my License with the minimum possible fuss.
Can always fight the Dress related battle when it is necessary.

So, if you wish, you're welcome to put your pet theories to the test by prancing or leaping about the countryside or neighbourhood in your briefs or whatever else takes your fancy and much luck to you!

It is one thing talking about principles and another thing with the practicalities of following them. I totally agree with you guys, one must choose the battles to fight.
In principle I believe that the officials are there to do their job- i.e make sure the person taking the test is capable of handling the vehicle safely and passing. What one wears should not have a bearing as long as its is not obscene. But this does not detract from the fact that we are living in a society and whether we like it or not, we are constantly judged by what we wear and how we present ourselves. So the sensible and practical thing to do is to dress a bit more 'presentably' and turn up, be polite and get the job done, rather than try and fight this.
Even in searing heat, I am sure wearing a shirt and trousers or shirt and dhothi/mundu, can be tolerated for 2-3 hrs to get the work done.
I am a doctor, a surgeon and have a few years of experience.I personally do not judge my patients based on whether they come to me wearing shorts/ dhothi or formals.
But, I for one, always dress up in formals and address the officials as 'sir', and smile, whenever I am dealing with govt. officials. I don't think it as an affront to my ego, as long as my work gets done with the least amount of hassle. If it gives the officials an ego boost, so be it.

It is a question of being sensible and practical, suited to the society we live in presently. If one can fight and bring about a sweeping change in govt officials attitude, then I am in.
Cheerio!

[AWD]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Against my will, I reply to this because I don't like being unfairly judged.

Point No 1:Yes the Babu needs to mend his ways. But this won't be achieved by confronting him in "Shorts".
Point No 2: I pay my taxes because it is my duty. because as an individual or as a family or as a part of a salaried group of people I get absolutely NOTHING in return. I hate this damnable situation, being caught in a cleft stick with no choice! Pardon me, but none of the taxes we pay go towards Nation Building.
However, do we have the power to change this by ourselves without the great masses of India being made aware through education? No we don't. Sadly yes, but despite our Voting and Activism and all the rest of it, we are a small voice lost in the Wind!
Point No 3: You don't have some kind of monopoly on "fighting the system"
I am a part of the collective voice as you put it, by my blogging, social media, keeping my eyes open and trying my best to help those who need it, because the stinking Government won't. For example, all the poor - those who serve us at home - they indeed get absolutely nothing from the disgusting despicable politicians - we on the other hand, look after them like family.
Point No 4: Who is throttling anyone's voice? Don't make silly accusatory

See it pinches to be feel "unfairly judged", guess the OP felt the same both at the babus hands & perhaps here by a few. When you again speak so vehemently against the System, the babus, then why say that the OP is wrong, whats his fault ? Just because the babus can ruin his work, from the fear of it he should wear the dress the babu desires ? Thats directly trying to appease the babu because you are afraid he might screw you. Now apply the same logic on the taxation part, when you say you get nothing in return, obviously you are not paying the taxes happily! So why add a feather to the cap that yes I do my part by paying taxes, hence my duty is done, for the rest Im unconcerned. I may add over that many of us do not pay the taxes willfully, happily due the same reasons but then paying taxes does not admonish one from the other moral duties one owes to the society or the nation.

Ahh...the topic had moved on from the the mere shorts part to a larger debate of whats right, what is granted by the constitution & as I said take it as a miniature picture of the larger problems that we have to confront day in & day out.

"A very small voice", I'd say you are underestimating the power. Each voice counts & think of it as a much needed spark to light up the fire of absolute freedom/independence.

"The system, crappy system, rotten system", true it is but we are a part of the very same system & if we feel so we should be revolting against the system. If not now, then never!

About the workers at home, see thats more like a symbiotic relationship. What really matters is the work we do from where we get/expect no returns. By doing so if we are able to change the society for good, then its advantage all.

See the OP felt offended by the babus attitude, I say the OP is not at any fault, its his own sweet will on what he desires to wear till its not vulgar/obscene according to the Indian scheme of things. Here we are telling him no buddy you are wrong, dress properly. Again I say, isn't this his own sweet choice for Gods sake ?! You'v made your point very well & its come across but we on our part want to carry our activism against this, any problems if we continue doing so ? Just saying we do our part at our blogs, forums, etc, is ok but I guess it was much needed here. Some of us are not ready to be taken down by the sad state of affairs & want to be the change, why do have to face resistance from people who are educated & lambast the system themselves but ain't ready to do anything about it.

I think we should be very supportive of any little voice that is raised against the rotten system. Agreed, Im ending it here from my side too. All the best OP, you were absolutely right & atleast I stand with you a 100% on this.

Over & out, sorry if anyone felt offended, nothing against anybody but the sad system.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Neil Roy

My 2 cents.
Recently, my friend went to ITC factory in Chennai outskirts clad in shorts. The factory personnel were polite, but firm in insisting that he wear trousers(not jeans) prior to meeting the MD. My friend is a naturalised US citizen on a business trip to India and he says that he has never faced such insistence of dress code anywhere before.

Buying or selling? If buying, he should have held his ground. If selling, it might be good to ditch the jeans.

Of the two decade-plus employments in my life, one had a dress code, the other did not. In the one that did not, if people wanted to sell to me, they dealt with me wearing what I chose to wear in the office, which was sometimes on the scruffy side of informal.

On the other hand, if they wanted to take me to an expensive restaurant, I would dress for the restaurant --- but the office was my home ground and I did what I liked.

In India, I am comfortable in traditional dress, and, apart from places like clubs that think they are still colonial, it neatly sidesteps most dress expectations.

[Neil Roy]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Buying or selling? ............

Ironically, he was the buyer. His trip was to verify machinery and infrastructure prior to confirming order.

[TD_GHY]

Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt

Why don't you list down what you've done in the areas pointed out by you instead of "preaching to the choir" on team Bhp.

A good place to start to change the world would be by following simple forum etiquette and putting a proper location on team Bhp (Driver's seat).

We can then continue with the rest-of-the-world-changing fantasy

While asking others to maintain forum etiquette of putting a proper location (is it one is a question first of all, but anyway), you too should stick to the forum etiquette of not indulging in personal attacks against forum members despite pole opposite views on a particular issue.

That being said, this is an automobile enthusiasts' forum, so a location as "Driver's Seat" is a witty one, unless people are allergic of light humour.

I believe we should not mock people based on their profile names or profile info. Imagine how you'll feel if someone ridicules you by saying you're not capable of buying the car in your username in your lifetime. You may own a fleet of them, but he might not know this just like you don't know if the person you attacked hasn't done anything on what he's asking others to.

If you happen to attack me too after this about what have I done in my change-the-world-fantasy, it will be trying to make a person more tolerant of other's viewpoints.

Thank You.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by AWD

See it pinches to be feel "unfairly judged", guess the OP felt the same both at the babus hands & perhaps here by a few. When you again speak so vehemently against the System, the babus, then why say that the OP is wrong, whats his fault ? Just because the babus can ruin his work, from the fear of it he should wear the dress the babu desires ? Thats directly trying to appease the babu because you are afraid he might screw you. Now apply the same logic on the taxation part, when you say you get nothing in return, obviously you are not paying the taxes happily! So why add a feather to the cap that yes I do my part by paying taxes, hence my duty is done, for the rest Im unconcerned. I may add over that many of us do not pay the taxes willfully, happily due the same reasons but then paying taxes does not admonish one from the other moral duties one owes to the society or the nation.

Ahh...the topic had moved on from the the mere shorts part to a larger debate of whats right, what is granted by the constitution & as I said take it as a miniature picture of the larger problems that we have to confront day in & day out.

"A very small voice", I'd say you are underestimating the power. Each voice counts & think of it as a much needed spark to light up the fire of absolute freedom/independence.

"The system, crappy system, rotten system", true it is but we are a part of the very same system & if we feel so we should be revolting against the system. If not now, then never!

About the workers at home, see thats more like a symbiotic relationship. What really matters is the work we do from where we get/expect no returns. By doing so if we are able to change the society for good, then its advantage all.

See the OP felt offended by the babus attitude, I say the OP is not at any fault, its his own sweet will on what he desires to wear till its not vulgar/obscene according to the Indian scheme of things. Here we are telling him no buddy you are wrong, dress properly. Again I say, isn't this his own sweet choice for Gods sake ?! You'v made your point very well & its come across but we on our part want to carry our activism against this, any problems if we continue doing so ? Just saying we do our part at our blogs, forums, etc, is ok but I guess it was much needed here. Some of us are not ready to be taken down by the sad state of affairs & want to be the change, why do have to face resistance from people who are educated & lambast the system themselves but ain't ready to do anything about it.

I think we should be very supportive of any little voice that is raised against the rotten system. Agreed, Im ending it here from my side too. All the best OP, you were absolutely right & atleast I stand with you a 100% on this.

Over & out, sorry if anyone felt offended, nothing against anybody but the sad system.

Seriously Guy.

You ride your hobby horse as much as you like, (wearing shorts and t shirt or a thong or a mundu or a dhoti for all I care.)
Go right ahead as you please.

I will do as I please and as I feel is right. Lets drop the preachy preachy stuff because we all know how practical it is here in India.

Nuff Said!

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

... ... ... we all know how practical it is here in India.

It's not practical. If I had told the RTO guy to be polite because my tax is paying his wages, then I wonder how long it would have taken to register the car. I'm sure he would have made it difficult. The rest of the staff were polite and helpful, with just the one bad apple.

However, if you ask me to respect petty officials or petty managers, whose chief concern is their ego, then no: I never have and I never will.

[TD_GHY]

Not quoting anybody here; just wanted to highlight how citizen's participation in form of suggestions/complaints have the power to shake the otherwise egoistic 'babus' shirking their designated work.

http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...tion-to-clean/

Passenger tweets dirty window picture to Suresh Prabhu, team arrives at next station to clean

P.S.: Unrelated to the RTO incident directly, but felt it valid since the thread has now digressed to questioning authority and making an impact however small they may be.

[Sheel]

Hope someone wears shorts and appears in the Honorable Court for a hearing of a case filed to dress as per one's fancy in whatever institutions they like.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

It's not practical. If I had told the RTO guy to be polite because my tax is paying his wages, then I wonder how long it would have taken to register the car. I'm sure he would have made it difficult. The rest of the staff were polite and helpful, with just the one bad apple.

However, if you ask me to respect petty officials or petty managers, whose chief concern is their ego, then no: I never have and I never will.

Absolutely. Same with the Police, same with any of these public servant wallahs.
They (most of them) think they're God's Gift to the rest of us and that we owe them an ego massage every time we cross paths.

However, when one wants to get one's work done, one just plays the game the way the rules are set and then walks away as a winner in some sense, because one's work is done. Do I like it? No I don't. But if I take a confrontationist approach them I will never see success and I just don't have the time to waste.

Respect them? Forget it. If given a hard time unnecessarily by any of these guys, I will make it a point to photograph him and revile him on Social Media. Else, I will write to the Newspapers or to the "powers that be" outlining the situation completely. No way will I let the guy rest.

Saying that, in the first place, I will behave humbly, with good manners and with decorum, and believe me, in 95% of these encounters, a bit of humility, good manners, a smile, a please and a thank you, work beautifully.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Hope someone wears shorts and appears in the Honorable Court for a hearing of a case filed to dress as per one's fancy in whatever institutions they like.

This is very poor logic: It would not be right to wear shorts in one place, so it isn't in another.

That is not true. Courts are somewhat up the scale from routine bureaucrats. As an example, I might file papers with some court office wearing shorts, but no, I would not appear for the case thus dressed.

I might visit you wearing shorts, but perhaps not your grandfather. In neither case would it be actually disrespectful (what's wrong with shorts?) but an elder person might take it as such. So, what is the difference then, between your grandfather and the RTO. The RTO is actually paid to serve me, not to dictate how I should approach him.