[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by sridhu

... ... ... If you can't, I can't explain any further.

The concept of shoot first, ask questions later.

That belongs in movies about the Wild West, not in real life. Or it shouldn't apply in real life. In some countries, in some circumstances it does.

No, a policeman should not imagine what a person might be and shoot. That is not law, and it is not rule of law. Plainly, your opinion differs.

[sbkumar]

For those who express shock on reading this incident, I would sincerely request you to go read about the state of affairs in UP the last couple of years, especially the "encounter culture". I can understand when people are rightly appalled by this act but if you are updated on the state of affairs in UP, this wouldn't/shouldn't surprise you. Any life lost is sad and that applies to this case as well. But this is what would happen when an entire department goes unchecked and that has been my fear when I used to read about things earlier. I hope this brings some kind of accountability within the department.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

The concept of shoot first, ask questions later.

That belongs in movies about the Wild West, not in real life. Or it shouldn't apply in real life. In some countries, in some circumstances it does.

I will only add that all this trick shooting being suggested "shoot at the tyres", "shoot to wound", "shoot the pistol or knife out of an armed man's hand" are all only possible in Rajnikanth movies.

When you discharge your weapon at a human - you aim at the "center of mass" and fire. That alone offers the best chance of hitting your target and putting it down with least risk to you and people around you.

But as you can guess this is almost invariably fatal. So any officer drawing a weapon should exercise quite a lot of discrimination and follow set procedure.

[VKumar]

I have a bit different perspective in this case, I frequently (Or maybe more than frequently) visit this place called Gomti Nagar and have driven on the road where the shooting has happened numerous times - mostly during early hours (say 3-4 am) or late night (say 12-1 am) because that's mostly the time when I either enter the city or leave.

How many times am I ever waved to stop?
Only twice till date

Why?
Both the times it was high security because of some event or two

What cops did?
Simply looked inside using their flas lights and let us go

What I find weird in this incident?
Both the stories are flawed IMO, neither I trust Sana nor I trust the constable. What I know is that something is missing and the only wrong that has actually happened is that a type-II error has occured and an innocent life has been lost. The story of constable is badly cooked and is easily identifiable, while the story of Sana can be broken down and burnt alive by any advocate inside the courtroom within a few minutes.

They overtook, parked the motorcycle in the middle, shot at the car - and shooting was done from a close range - enough said, I too have got a licensed weapon and even if it is loaded, my reflexes are not this quick by any measures that I park the motorcycle (Prashant was the rider), deboard it, take weapon out, adjust my aim and shoot from close range towards the driver of a car moving towards me and the car is one with a long bonnet (XUV) and not a Maruti Omni.

A lot of facts are hidden and reaching a judgement based on them is wrong IMO. The only uncalled event here is the murder and the constable deserves to face a probe and a punishment. But at the same time, UP is not a land of saints either; and looking at the way events have turned out to be (mid night, not stopping etc) there is a decent probability of presence of a miscreant. The cop shouldn't have shot, but what if it was really a terrorist inside the car? What if it was a stolen car or looted vehicle (It has been found in Delhi that presence of women is used to keep away cops to take stolen or looted vehicles outside). What if a major terrorist activity was conducted using the same vehicle the next morning? We, as civilians have to think only our part - sadly cops need to think looking at a way wider perspective. Gomti Nagar is an upscale area and cops are normally found to be quite alert over there.


Whenever my car is waved to stop and I know the area - I always stop. This person is a local resident who is well versed with the entire area, I see no reason for him to flee (Until they were doing something inside the car that forced cops to wave them to stop - note: Sana was not an Apple employee any more and her presence with Vivek in the car is maybe normal, but maybe isn't - who knows?), he could have stopped as this particular area is actually crime free. It is important to know what activity they were involved in inside the moving car that forced the cops to try to stop them, as already mentioned - I am never waved to stop in the midnight there for no reason until it was something like a national festival, election etc arriving and in that also I don't remember if I have ever faced a rude cop, they are always like "open the boot (becasue cops never open your car with their own hands)" and once check inside using their flashlight and that also from outside.

[Guna]

I read that the victim was 'Apple Executive'. I remember an Adobe top executive was hacked to death and now this. Hope the international media doesn't pick this up to add to the propaganda of 'India is not safe for.....'.
Unfortunate incident.
I also have a hunch (just 1%) that this may be plotted.

[mac187]

I was refraining from participating in this thread. But here it goes.

Guys, it really shouldn't matter what the relationship was between that man and woman. Of all the people atleast we (BHpians) shouldn't be thinking at such personal level.

I certainly don't approve of the fact that people try to flee police barricades but our cops can't have only two options, either lathi or gun.

The details are sketchy but the good news is there is CCTV footage. That along with more details should clear things up.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/cc...f=hp_top_pos_5

[hserus]

Originally Posted by mac187

I was refraining from participating in this thread. But here it goes.

Guys, it really shouldn't matter what the relationship was between that man and woman. Of all the people atleast we (BHpians) shouldn't be thinking at such personal level.

Also - notice the image of the XUV. As the FIR lodged by the victim's wife says, there is just the one bullet hole. And as far as I have seen, the pattern here is consistent with what is described here - that a pistol was placed on the windshield of the car and fired, to hit him in the side of the neck below his ear.

The allegation is plausible because -

1. Taking quick aim with a pistol and immediately achieving a headshot is much more difficult than it sounds from even a few meters away (as would be the case when the car was moving towards you).

2. Hitting a moving target with such pinpoint accuracy as to cause instant death from a head shot is one of those one in a million chances, if the constable's theory were to check out.

The car windshield is a bit dark - maybe sunfilm or tints, so I can't see this clearly - but if a pistol was placed right on the windshield, there'll be lots of traces of propellant from the pistol round (nitrate and nitrite traces from the burnt propellant and unburnt particles of it, so called gunshot residue). Unless that car's windshield was subsequently washed off, and even if it was hurriedly washed off, a forensics lab should be able to tell. That plus comparison shots from a distance and touching the glass, by firing similar bullets through similar pistols and observing the pattern of the bullet hole and cracked glass.

[V.Narayan]

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...014-2018-09-27

^^^^ watch this video of UP police in action a few days ago. They receive a 'tip off' that in a nearby apartment a Muslim boy and a Hindu girl are spending time together. Clearly this 'crime' is the most important and dangerous law and order situation facing Uttar Pradesh and the most vital duty of this feudal force is to invest time to separate inter-religious couples. I am not commenting yet on the Lucknow episode till the CCTV footage can be seen to know what happened. But sharing this so that folks from other parts of India get a flavor of the UP Police. Gentlemen, it is not for us to comment on a man & a woman being out at past mid-night or what they were doing in the car - whatever it maybe it is not a crime except in the eyes of medieval cops who still use the phrase 'compromising position'!! Gomti Nagar is a tony neighbourhood and not some lonely dark place and its main thoroughfares have some traffic even at 1:30AM as in any other large city.

[rrsteer]

There are some very striking similarities to this case and what had happened to one of my seniors in college.

In that case, my senior was with a girl acquaintance in a car, parked at a somewhat secluded place in the middle of the day. I think they were waiting for someone. Two cops on a motorcycle noticed them while on the beat. The cops interrogated them and then reached the conclusion that they were performing indecent acts in a public place and asked my senior to accompany them to the police station. A heated argument ensued. My senior while still seated in the car tried to make a dash, and hit one of the cops in the process. In retaliation the cops fired a bullet. Luckily, the bullet missed the car completely in that case. What followed is a separate story in itself and was an eye opener in terms of how to deal with policemen.

This happened sometime in early 2000s, in a small town in Punjab - when the Punjab Police was still high from the excesses committed in the 90s era.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Luckily, the bullet missed the car completely in that case. What followed is a separate story in itself and was an eye opener in terms of how to deal with policemen.

This happened sometime in early 2000s, in a small town in Punjab - when the Punjab Police was still high from the excesses committed in the 90s era.

The stink caused by this case just might make them rather more careful about unrestricted encounter-raj.

So far their victims have mostly been from the poorer sections of society and certainly not politically connected people. All such are easily brushed away and stories about criminal or terrorist background concocted to bury the matter.

In this case unfortunately for the cops that wasn't possible. Now we have to see whether this encounter raj continues unrestricted or the constables start to get cold feet on the matter.

[Ithaca]

The event was unfortunate. The event was tragic. A person lost his life.
Instead of displaying courtesy and decency, people on both sides of the equation are taking matters into their own hands.
Getting small children involved for sympathy factor is despicable.

Picture courtesy: https://twitter.com/zoo_bear/status/1046709654024269824

[basuroy]

Car was moving within speed limit as per CCTV footage near the encounter site , no footage has been released OR exists of actual encounter.

Wife of the deceased knew he was with a lady co worker(It was 1.30am because they were at a launch event of the new iphone ) so that should put the affair/make-out rumour to rest . Wife has gone on record saying her husband is of clean character.


That said , the only time a police has ever pulled me up and given me a challan was because I had a lady pillion and it pissed him off . Was our first date , police brazenly mocked me for roaming around with a girl on a bike(used rude language ) , I was doing below 30kmph because of pillion (Salt lake Kolkata , heavy police presence ) and challan was for jumping a red light ( I suspect I jumped it when it was turning red ). Motorcycle was a duke 390.

What is truly shocking about this incident is not that a man was shot dead , it was going to happen sooner than later.

What is shocking is a fund has been created for the accused with already 5.5L arriving in donation within 24 hours . What kind of society it is that celebrates might and aggression over empathy and tolerance . It is like a tumour turning out to be thoroughly malignant . Reminds me of a famous German poem - "...then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me".

[nishsingh]

Coincidentally, the UP police did something similar around 16 years back in Agra, when they shot and killed a medical student who was sitting in the car.

Please notice the similarity in the two cases 16 years apart :
1. In both cases, the male driver is with a lady passenger (not married to each other)
2. In both cases, police say they felt something suspicious (does a man driving with a lady in the middle of the night give rise to suspicions of the extreme kind in UP?)
3. In both cases, the cars try to drive off.
4. In both cases, the police discharge their firearm on the fleeing vehicle, killing the occupant in the vehicle.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/17186852.cms

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by VKumar

But at the same time, UP is not a land of saints either; and looking at the way events have turned out to be (mid night, not stopping etc) there is a decent probability of presence of a miscreant. The cop shouldn't have shot, but what if it was really a terrorist inside the car? What if it was a stolen car or looted vehicle (It has been found in Delhi that presence of women is used to keep away cops to take stolen or looted vehicles outside). What if a major terrorist activity was conducted using the same vehicle the next morning?

Can you imagine a society where a cop killing you is justified because "what if"? Cops are not supposed to deliver justice, we can leave that to courts.

[ninjatalli]

Guys on both sides of the fence - clearly not everything is black and white; both sides have plausible arguments but with the same underlying point - a life has been taken which was wrong. Thankfully an investigation is ongoing, and so far there doesn't seem to be a motive to hush it up.

Request we use this thread to share updates on what's the latest status than trying to do a Sherlock analysis ourselves with incomplete information.

Also the info given by @rrsteer and others on similar scenarios in the past does give a good insight on what might/could have gone wrong

On a similar note, back in 2006, I had a similar incident, but with a very different experience. This was in Chennai on a Friday night, I had gone home to be able to attend a colleague's marriage. Another colleague of mine who was also attending had just flown in the day of the wedding and was planning to fly out back to Pune the next day. Since she was in town only for a day, I had invited her to stay at my (parents') place for the night which she had accepted.

Post the reception we decided to head to an late evening movie; our mode of transport being my parent's Activa. The movie ended around 10ish and we took the route back via the Marina beach. There was a cop check point stopping all vehicles (which was at the most a few cars and bikes on the road). It probably helped as I could speak the local language, I explained to them about the marriage and the movie show post that. I was upfront and honest and told her about being out of town, and a guest at my place. Can't remember if we had the movie stubs; but they accepted my explanation and asked us to proceed home.

That's all - no sneaky questions, no alterations, no threats or questions about family etc.