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Old 12th September 2019, 22:55   #1
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Default How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

I did not find a suitable thread to discuss this topic and hence I’m creating a new thread. Moderators please merge this into any suitable thread that may already be in tbhp.

My apartment complex in Chennai has 400+ apartment units. Every apartment has a parking space for a car and couple of two wheelers. In all there are about 500 odd car parking slots including that of visitor car parking slots, and extra parking slots for certain apartments. We have three levels of car parking in, Stilt, Upper basement and Lower basement. All the parking slots are well marked, along with safety postings like speed limits, there are ample speed breakers and we also have CC cameras installed. The drive way in the stilt is also used by residents for walking and jogging. The same drive way is used by kids for cycling as well.

Association communicates through dedicated app, email, whatsapp, and hike to residents on safety and need for driving safely. Residents are encouraged to stop rash drivers and counsel them. Despite all these efforts there are many incidents of rash driving, and bad parking lot etiquette. I’ve complained to the Association on a few occasions. They sympathize with me but they are hard pressed to come up with a solution. I’m posting here to seek solutions. I’m looking for ready or near ready solutions so that we need not have to reinvent the wheel.

Here are the key requirements:

1. How are other apartments doing this? What are the best practices?
2. We need to create a guide/rule book for the residents and publish them.
3. How do we handle an incident? While we want to make our society safe we don’t also want to put too many restrictions, and create ill will.
4. What are the legal aspects that we should address? It would be nice to address all the incidents in-house. What help should we seek from the authorities?
5. We have CC Camera footage as evidence. This gets used only when there is a complaint. Are there solutions that detect and queue up clips with violations which we can then review and act accordingly? I know that this is a minority report kind of expectation. But a fellow can wish for it right.
6. Tracking the movement of visitor vehicles: Are there solutions to track visitor vehicles, and check how long they have been inside the premises, where they are parked etc. Any solution that can automate this will be great. For example we are putting clamps on vehicles parked in visitor parking slots beyond certain time and impose fines. We have a boom barrier (for four wheelers only) and the security manning these make entry in to register books and do the tracking manually. Ideally the solution should track visitor vehicles to particular residence.

Do let me know your thoughts. What are some actions that I should recommend to the Association?

Regards,
lsjey

Last edited by Aditya : 13th September 2019 at 07:43. Reason: Spacing, formatting
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:21   #2
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Default re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by lsjey View Post
We have a boom barrier (for four wheelers only) and the security manning these make entry in to register books and do the tracking manually. Ideally the solution should track visitor vehicles to particular residence
Hi there and thank you for starting an interesting topic on apartment dwelling and laws and bylaws and bye bye laws

1. Visitor management system - Our apt started a digital management system recently. This is probably one of the most easiest ways of managing visitor/vendor vehicles in an apartment. The system provides an entry time and also alerts the security on how long the vehicle/visitor is present in the apartment complex. There is no way you can track a vehicle to its right block assuming you have multiple blocks other than through the security guards. In our apt, we have sec guards posted for each block (2 to 3 per block) who monitor parking and visitor transits in addition to other things

2. Since you already have a CCTV, the best way is to have it monitored on a periodic basis by the admin staff. I dont think Minority Report is possible unless you invest in a analytics based system with real time video analysis. It is too much for an apartment. A better thing to do is to empower your security personnel. A lot of times security personnel are treated as second class citizens and we just walk over them. This is because they are not empowered to act when there is violation of rules. I have seen a number of cases in my apt wherein the residents and security personnel have either become too friendly to take advantage of or when the residents just treat them as servants and walk over them. Get a professionally managed service agency to take charge of security details.

3. Educate, educate and educate with some amount of penalty. The apartment owners should feel that they are part of the system rather than users of the system

4. The other problem you will have in enforcing a culture of ownership is that most apartments will have tenants. For e.g. in our apartment the tenants outweigh the owners in numbers and therefore the spirit of ownership is lacking. However, the owner community is strong and we did manage to bring in this by getting tenants as office bearers in administration and now things are much better

5. Work with law enforcement for education. Have a tie up with your local constabulary to help people understand the issues with wrongful driving etiquette in enclosed public spaces. I am sure people will not speed in a market area.

6. Designated areas for children to play. This is missing in a lot of apartments and one has to put in an effort.

7. Extended monitoring during peak traffic hours. We know that between 8 and 11am and 6 and 8pm are peak traffic hours. Get your security detail to monitor the roads within the apartment more. In our complex we have security staff amassed during this time with hand signage of low speed and if they see you speeding they do come down to the middle of the road to reduce it

Nevertheless you will still have the 1s and 2s who will violate and then it will have to heavy penalty. For e.g. we had an incident of inebriated behavior and we registered a case with the police for the same. This is a strong measure, but is a good deterrent for bad behavior

Last edited by aah78 : 13th September 2019 at 17:36. Reason: Quote trimmed.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:25   #3
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Default re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by lsjey View Post
I The drive way in the stilt is also used by residents for walking and jogging. The same drive way is used by kids for cycling as well.
Every time I think of moving to a apartment complex where we own an apartment, I come across the Nazi like rules in them and prefer to stay away thankfully.

1. First, kids below a certain age should not cycle around unaccompanied.

2. Typical cheap Indian attitude of bullying visitors that I see in most apartment complexes. Now, my visitor might stay for a few days. How can the apartment prevent that.

3. Excessive paranoid idea about visitors.

4. Now residents counselling others. Please save other people. No offense to old people, but the old retired types think anything above walking speed is rash driving.

5. Don't fix speed limits lower than 20. It's humanely not possible to drive anything below it.

6. Don't give powers to security people. In India, the moment you give a person an uniform and some sort of power, they go around bullying both residents and visitors.

7. Lastly, for God's sake do not, I repeat don't moral police tenants, or restrict tenants. Like bachelors or spinsters not allowed to rent. Some bunch of idiots have gone to extremes like visitors if opposite gender not allowed inside apartments where bachelor's are staying. The shameless behaviour of apartment associations leave a lot to desire.

Last edited by aah78 : 13th September 2019 at 17:36. Reason: Quote trimmed.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:15   #4
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Default re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

Apartment parkings and access ways are easily underrated but can be potentially dangerous. Not just kids, old people, even healthy adults can come your way as a surprise. It is easy to get deceived in that world of maze. Even a simple reversing can become lethal. It can even be your kid hiding behind the next pillar. To make things worse, many Apartment parkings have poor illumination.

Regarding the solutions, In my opinion, mere rules won’t help, we need to have appropriate checks and balances such as speed bumps, road safety mirrors, adequate lighting and most importantly enough width of main access ways.

As for confronting breaches, it has to be with your association.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:28   #5
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Default re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by lsjey View Post
1. How are other apartments doing this? What are the best practices?
2. We need to create a guide/rule book for the residents and publish them.
We have the similar problems at our apartment complex too. It's mostly few errant drivers that seem to be in need of "schooling" but refuse to learn anyway!

Exhibit 1 - Rash lady driver. Beemer. Incessant and unnecessary honking. Sharp accelerations and braking. Dangerous driving within the apartment complex. Seemed as if she was always angry and driving in that state!

First there was friendly "chat" to explain why such behavior is unacceptable and what they can do to remedy it. A few such friendly chats later, they were given a warning that if they didn't mend the ways, they may have to leave the building where they currently stay as tenants.

Things seem to be normal now.

Exhibit 2: Horrendously loud Enfield. The bike would always start in the night after 11pm. Reverberating through the parking lot. Turned out, he was a visitor and was illegally using a parking space he wasn't meant to.

A friendly explanation was given on the right place to park. They were not opposed to learning and changed to the right ways.

Exhibit 3: Underage driving! Kids on two- and four-wheelers riding or driving when they shouldn't be.

Parents were 'advised' about possible police action. We do still occasionally see the odd junior riding/driving and parents fighting it out.

Although largely well behaved people around in our apartment complex, it's those few bad apples that manage to always spoil the mood for everyone.

If such cases can be handled with gentle talks/warnings/etc., that is usually the best. The confrontational kinds do at times need some legal notice before they mend their ways.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:40   #6
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Exhibit 1 -
First there was friendly "chat" to explain why such behavior is unacceptable and what they can do to remedy it. A few such friendly chats later, they were given a warning that if they didn't mend the ways, they may have to leave the building where they currently stay as tenants.

Exhibit 2: Horrendously loud Enfield. The bike would always start in the night after 11pm. Reverberating through the parking lot. Turned out, he was a visitor and was illegally using a parking space he wasn't meant to.
Exhibit 1 is an example of association bullying tenants. The association should have no legal rights to force the tenant to move. It's an impingement on the owners right.

Exhibit 2. Illegal says who. The owner has a right to allow visitors to use his own parking lot purchased for his exclusive use. The apartment association does not have any rights whatsoever in preventing visitors authorized by the owner from using the parking facility. It's a violation of property rights.Unless ofcourse its a shared facility, where the individuals are not allocated or sold individual parking spaces.

Other apartment owners and associations need to realise that their rules can't over ride the laws of the country.

Last edited by aah78 : 13th September 2019 at 17:37. Reason: Quote trimmed.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:20   #7
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

In these cases - speaking as a former association member for a 900-1000 flat complex (I gave up my role because my current job involves frequent travel)

1. The association is well within its rights to fine the BMW owner for rash driving - but not to ask her to vacate etc.

2. I agree, visitors can be allowed into owner parking lots but ON THE EXPLICIT AUTHORIZATION OF THE OWNER. Only vehicles with a valid boom tag would be allowed past the boom barrier, and temporary tags can be issued to, for example, your parents who are visiting from a nearby city and have driven over. Vehicles parked overnight without a tag or sticker can and should be towed. The reason is that apartment parking lots are quite commonly used for random illegal parking - some guy who has an office nearby might turn up and park there, or a thief might park a stolen bike in the middle of an apartment parking lot till the heat dies down and he can retrieve it.

3. Underage driving, illegally loud aftermarket exhausts etc can be reported to the traffic police for action. These are both offences with significant fines under the amended MV act. No need to argue with parents about their letting minor kids drive their car or bike within the apartment complex "in order to learn". The kid can turn 18 and sign up at a driving school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Exhibit 1 is an example of association bullying tenants. The association should have no legal rights to force the tenant to move. It's an impingement on the owners right.

Exhibit 2. Illegal says who. The owner has a right to allow visitors to use his own parking lot purchased for his exclusive use. The apartment association does not have any rights whatsoever in preventing visitors authorized by the owner from using the parking facility. It's a violation of property rights.Unless ofcourse its a shared facility, where the individuals are not allocated or sold individual parking spaces.

Other apartment owners and associations need to realise that their rules can't over ride the laws of the country.

Last edited by hserus : 13th September 2019 at 09:31.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:27   #8
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

There will be all types of people in a large apartment complex. The association can issue guidelines about driving and parking, but can't seriously enforce it beyond a point. Especially if the errant drivers are owners. Since you have mentioned about speed humps -hope they are REAL humps of the bone jarring variety - and cctv cameras, I don't think there is much else you can do.

The point about "handling any incidents in-house" is a strict no-no. If it is a serious incident other than mere damage to property, the law will have to step in, and that knowledge itself will be an effective deterrent. Not informing the law can put the association secretary in big trouble, even behind bars.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:34   #9
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

CCTV cameras yes - but not big humps unless you enjoy routine arguments about bashed in underbodies of low GC vehicles.

You can place those chicane barriers if you really want to control speed at strategic locations (eg before a blind turn), and also install those big convex mirrors on walls to show people oncoming traffic.

Streamline traffic flow if possible so it is entirely one way, and entering / exiting the apartment are on different paths, and have heavy fines for wrong side driving.

Don't allow cabs / delivery vans beyond the boom barrier without a security escort. They will take shortcut wrong side routes much more than any resident will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
There will be all types of people in a large apartment complex. The association can issue guidelines about driving and parking, but can't seriously enforce it beyond a point. Especially if the errant drivers are owners. Since you have mentioned about speed humps -hope they are REAL humps of the bone jarring variety - and cctv cameras, I don't think there is much else you can do.

The point about "handling any incidents in-house" is a strict no-no. If it is a serious incident other than mere damage to property, the law will have to step in, and that knowledge itself will be an effective deterrent. Not informing the law can put the association secretary in big trouble, even behind bars.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:00   #10
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Every time I think of moving to a apartment complex where we own an apartment, I come across the Nazi like rules in them and prefer to stay away thankfully.
I second Ragav no use unnecessarily giving yourself and residents a headache.

My suggestions are, simply create red and white signs near visitor parking areas and around the colony reminding people to check their surroundings before reversing or to drive carefully as children might be playing or to not honk as it is a residential area. Security should be encouraged to stop vehicles whether they be owners or visitors at the gate to inform them to dip their lights or perhaps not honk at the gate as the sound of the engine and perhaps a flash of lights is enough. This sort of active education of vehicle drivers ought to be more than enough in my opinion.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:43   #11
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Exhibit 2. Illegal says who. The owner has a right to allow visitors to use his own parking lot purchased for his exclusive use. The apartment association does not have any rights whatsoever in preventing visitors authorized by the owner from using the parking facility. It's a violation of property rights.Unless ofcourse its a shared facility, where the individuals are not allocated or sold individual parking spaces.
This is not exactly black and white as you assume. A parking slot is not exactly same as the flat where you reside where you can do whatever you like. It is considered as common area and that is why it is maintained /cleaned by the association fund. Otherwise people would have barricaded it and some enterprising fellow could have even used it as store room.
So association has some sort of control over your parking slot.
hserus explains it why it is necessary to monitor parking slot usage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hserus View Post

2. I agree, visitors can be allowed into owner parking lots but ON THE EXPLICIT AUTHORIZATION OF THE OWNER. Only vehicles with a valid boom tag would be allowed past the boom barrier, and temporary tags can be issued to, for example, your parents who are visiting from a nearby city and have driven over. Vehicles parked overnight without a tag or sticker can and should be towed. The reason is that apartment parking lots are quite commonly used for random illegal parking - some guy who has an office nearby might turn up and park there, or a thief might park a stolen bike in the middle of an apartment parking lot till the heat dies down and he can retrieve it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hserus View Post
3. Underage driving, illegally loud aftermarket exhausts etc can be reported to the traffic police for action. These are both offences with significant fines under the amended MV act. No need to argue with parents about their letting minor kids drive their car or bike within the apartment complex "in order to learn". The kid can turn 18 and sign up at a driving school.
I have a slightly different view for kids or others driving.
In our apartment people tried to learn driving on a normal car. Seeing the danger we prohibited four wheeler learning completely.

Two wheeler learning still goes on and by the ladies. And in between some kids do have fun riding scootys within.

Another thing, my interpretation is driveways inside an apartment cannot be considered public roads, where the MV act is actually applicable.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th September 2019 at 17:01. Reason: Grammatical error
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:17   #12
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

All thanks for the suggestions. After some internet research, came up with the following suggestions to the Association:

1. Improved signage


a. Parking accurately in car spaces: Position your vehicle in the center of the parking space. Parking over the stripes will be inconvenient to the driver in the adjacent space, and can lead to doors getting unnecessarily scraped or dented.
b. Pull your vehicle all the way into the space.
c. Stop and Yield signs near boom barrier in entrance, stilt parking lot exits, and UB parking lot exit
d. Increase number of One-way signs and markings in the stilt, UB and LB areas.
e. Increase speed limit signs.
f. Clearly marked loading and unloading areas for club house and blocks. Move around a few parking slots to free up space for this.
g. No parking in the curb areas


2. Pedestrian walkways
a. Marked pedestrian crossings
b. Use of bollards for protecting pedestrians walkways


3. Increased number of speed breakers


4. Clearing parking slots which are adjacent to fire hydrants


Still have no ideas as to how to target and reach the two wheeler drivers. Any inputs will be appreciated.

Last edited by lsjey : 13th September 2019 at 11:31. Reason: Formatting got lost
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Old 14th September 2019, 20:08   #13
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

A bit more research and came up with a website which offers parking lot monitoring solution. What do y'all think?


http://www.hikvisionindia.com/solutions/parking


Regards,
lsjey
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Old 14th September 2019, 22:58   #14
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

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Originally Posted by lsjey View Post
A bit more research and came up with a website which offers parking lot monitoring solution. What do y'all think?
I have deployed CCTV cameras from Hikvision in the apartment I currently live in (smaller complex with 7 flats). Their local dealer Sham is a good guy who does professional installs and should be able to advice. 98844 77681.

Last edited by aah78 : 20th September 2019 at 17:29. Reason: Quote trimmed.
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Old 15th September 2019, 08:20   #15
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Default Re: How to handle rash & negligent drivers in apartment complexes?

My Creta was dented by a biker trying to squeeze between my cars and adjacent cars — between the thin strip between. Akin, to the stupidity exhibited on roads. GGN people are extremely rude (and lazy):

1. Stopping on the down ramp (middle) to take a call.
2. Stopping at the end of the up going ramp to take a call.
3. RWA has littered our basements with speed breakers to curb rash driving — people still do. Even the start of the upward ramp has one. I have never seen that anywhere. When I asked...
4. Jaywalking up/down ramps. So (3) is safety for that.
5. Honking impatiently when citizens are reverse parking.
6. Never yield never. Like the wrath of hellion will devour them.
7. Solicitating auto / cabbies / vendors inside basements.
8. Guards being treated as personal property.
9. High beam.
10. No horn on sharp curves.

Basically we love to take a spanner and use it as a screwdriver, hammer, and back scratcher. People forget a tool is a tool — rather behave like one.

Changes are impossible. RWA binds a Rs. 500 fine to the CAM for gross violations or low jacks the tire, at times. People vehemently fight back. What’s the point? Who is John Galt.
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