[ringoism]

Originally Posted by proton

Knows big machines are actually safer, for highway cruising and overtaking, because of power delivery available at lower rpms. And you may need power left to get out of a sticky situation or to complete the overtaking manoeuvre.

Can’t resist the attractive pricing!

With power increases come increasing capabilities (of the bike), and thus increasingly short distances within which to execute increasing high numbers of overtaking maneuvers that indeed may have been risky on a smaller-capacity machine. But with that rationale, a 1L bike will eventually prove inadequate as well - it's not as "safe" as a 1200 - and where does that end? Main thing of safe riding is to stay within whichever bike's / rider's limitations. Get above a healthy 600 and the rider's skill limitations generally become the larger factor, the reason for all the fancy electronic safeguards on large-cap premium bikes now. But why have all the power if the average rider can't come anywhere near to controlling it at the limit anyway? I'd say that if basic highway speed limits can be maintained / exceeded (which as I said any 600 can do) then safety comes simply down to a question of good decision-making on the part of the rider. A 1000cc bike is not "safer" than a 600 or even a 250. Unless the rider is getting himself into (and out of) risky situations... because he knows he can, because he has 1000cc to work with... so it's still going to be just as "risky" as anything nearing the limitations of the 600cc bike/rider. It's a sliding scale and kind of an invalid circular argument IMO.

Your point re: fatigue is right, IF one is going to be on large expressways all day... which I was asserting are really quite boring roads to be touring on anyway... Till a cow suddenly runs into the roadway when you're doing 140kph (as happened to a buddy touring on his Tiger on one such road recently). But to each his own.

Again re: price, I cannot see it in any way as attractive when comparing to what it sells for in the U.S. and other markets.

I dunno... can't help but think your first point is the main thing... "large disposable income" - coupled with, "I want one". That's all the real justification most are going to have available / require for this.

-Eric

[proton]

Originally Posted by ringoism

<SNIP>

Again re: price, I cannot see it in any way as attractive when comparing to what it sells for in the U.S. and other markets.

I dunno... can't help but think your first point is the main thing... "large disposable income" - coupled with, "I want one". That's all the real justification most are going to have available / require for this.

-Eric

It's not rocket science. Match the solution according to your requirements and budget:

Problem
Touring and being told some places are accessible only with off road motorcycle.

Solution 1
Car+trailer+off road motorcycle

Pros
Comfortable
Perfect match of safety and speed of car to road, motorcycle to trail

Cons
Expensive
Time consuming
Awkward
Can’t get the wind in my face in a car

Solution 2
Motorcycle capable of road as well as off road.

Pros
Simple, time saving and cheap as you want it, reflected in the on and off road combination solutions offered. Study what reviewers are saying about the GS’s, Versys’s and Vstrom’s.
More bike time.

Cons
The best combinations were always expensive.

A new offering, the Africa Twin is relatively cheap for what it gives in return. In the Enfield 750 thread, someone posted that this is the best selling bike in the UK. Many owners use it for commuting!

Even more bike time!

[Nithesh_M]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

But I've seen very less owners using such bikes as a regular city commuter. So that will not be a very major advantage in the long run. Plus we all know the issues faced by VW and Ford owners with dual clutch transmissions. Honda should be much better - but I would still have my concerns on the reliability of a dual clutch transmission packaged small enough to fit into a motorcycle and being used in our hot, dusty and humid city conditions.

Look up the NC700/750 model bikes that have employed DCT since day one. They're Europe's best selling commuter motorcycle because it returns the fuel efficiency of a 150cc bike with the power of a 500cc bike.
Its selling so well that Honda updated its DCT software every 3 years.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Nithesh_M

Look up the NC700/750 model bikes that have employed DCT since day one. They're Europe's best selling commuter motorcycle because it returns the fuel efficiency of a 150cc bike with the power of a 500cc bike.
Its selling so well that Honda updated its DCT software every 3 years.

True. But that's not (yet) relevant in the Indian context. That comment was only for the DCT on the Indian Africa Twin.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by proton

Problem
Touring and being told some places are accessible only with off road motorcycle.

Solution 1
Car+trailer+off road motorcycle

Solution 2
Motorcycle capable of road as well as off road.

Pros
Simple, time saving and cheap as you want it... More bike time.

Cons
The best combinations were always expensive.

Possibly too many foreign bike mags / forums in view here? I've seen a trailered off-road motorcycle exactly one time over the nearly two decades my Indian experience (that being a Husaberg during the Raid rally, a competitive event)... And fact remains that just about everyone I've come across riding a large-displacement, imported adv. tourer here was complaining that it was too heavy for real rough-road/offroad use (as many complain even internationally). The Tigers (for example) are good highway bikes and can manage unpaved roads, but they made a very poor showing in the Raid-de-Himalaya rally, and the one rider who actually managed to keep up with the lighter bikes for awhile eventually crashed (met and spoke with him at Batal). Tiger-riding tour guide I met earlier also complained of the weight. He'd dropped his three times out there (and it was not easy to pick up, either).

So Proton bhai, how exactly does this Honda represent the "best" combination in the subcontinental context? And why are only two solutions being offered (one clearly undesirable, the other excessively narrow)? I know I can be a little lengthy/obtuse, but you've not addressed my essential point here, namely that:

Perceived requirements can be quite different from actual ones; We go amiss by assuming that bigger is better; We can comfortably/capably do all you suggest is "required" with something much smaller than a liter-displacement and 200+kg's.

And just because someone has the budget doesn't mean the best solution is going to be the pricier one.

Matching (imaginary or real) "requirements" to budget sounds a little clinical. It ultimately has to be "right" from an actual riding / ownership perspective, in one's actual, real-world context.

Solution 3 (IMO a much better one): A well-designed, well-balanced, smaller (therefore yes, cheaper), 400-600cc dual-sport which will be far more manageable (meaning real-world capable) off-road than the Africa twin, and will not in any way require a trailer, and which will still be comfortably able to far exceed normal highway speeds, handle spirited overtaking maneuvers, etc, in many/most contexts worldwide (incl. particularly the Indian one).

Remember, the average mid-displacement bike can handily outrun high-performance four-wheelers (check the data). Overtaking, cruising, top speeds are honestly not an issue here. Unless you're feeling the need to regularly overtake overspeeding crotch-rockets.

So sign me up for something like a KTM adv 390, if it ever finally materializes. Nobody actually "requires" more power on the highway than that, and the thing will be light enough to handle brilliantly off-road. Why on earth is the talk of trailers coming in (justifications, justifications)???

The Africa Twin is a well-engineered, well-made bike that in truth I wouldn't mind riding - but I sincerely believe that for the vast majority of would-be dual-sport / touring riders in the Indian context, it represents excess: power-wise, weight-wise, price-wise, heat-generation-wise (and almost certainly depreciation-wise). Factor in spares & service costs and the reality of India-manufactured units always capable of providing more bang-for-the-buck, and it's hard to really make a case for it... except that you might have to still wait awhile for appealing India-produced models.

Anyone who differs can feel free to buy (or finance) one... We will all be mightily awed / impressed - till the next great "bigger, better" thing comes along.

-Eric

[proton]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Possibly too many foreign bike mags / forums in view here? I've seen a trailered off-road motorcycle exactly one time over the nearly two decades my Indian experience (that being a Husaberg during the Raid rally, a competitive event)... And fact remains that just about everyone I've come across riding a large-displacement, imported adv. tourer here was complaining that it was too heavy for real rough-road/offroad use (as many complain even internationally). The Tigers (for example) are good highway bikes and can manage unpaved roads, but they made a very poor showing in the Raid-de-Himalaya rally, and the one rider who actually managed to keep up with the lighter bikes for awhile eventually crashed (met and spoke with him at Batal). Tiger-riding tour guide I met earlier also complained of the weight. He'd dropped his three times out there (and it was not easy to pick up, either).

I suppose the only argument for high powered machines like the GS1200 and the 4 wheel equivalent, a Bentley Continental, is the addiction to power. After all, getting from point A to B can be done equally well with a Suzuki Alto, and going by your logic, there would be no takers for the Bentley.

But, surprise surprise! There ARE such takers, else the manufacturers would have long gone out of business!

[sachinwadhwani]

I love this bike. Ive owned it for 3 months and the only thing I find I don't like is the extra weight of the DCT and the tires are pure A grade trash.

Also, a word of caution. Honda 2 Wheelers India has NO parts for this bike. Earlier it was the other SBK manufacturers that harrowed you for service and spares, the issue/habit seems to have caught up with Honda too.

I lost the right footpeg and scratched my hand-guards and right indicators in an incident. I left my bike with Honda for first service and to replace these parts and its been 3 weeks and no parts and no indication of date of delivery.

So ya, it's a great bike but nothing to back it up in terms of parts from Honda.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by sachinwadhwani

Also, a word of caution. Honda 2 Wheelers India has NO parts for this bike. Earlier it was the other SBK manufacturers that harrowed you for service and spares, the issue/habit seems to have caught up with Honda too.

I lost the right footpeg and scratched my hand-guards and right indicators in an incident. I left my bike with Honda for first service and to replace these parts and its been 3 weeks and no parts and no indication of date of delivery.

So ya, it's a great bike but nothing to back it up in terms of parts from Honda.

Sad to know of that experience Sachin.

Unfortunately that's a reality with the number of bikes getting sold in our market. Superbikes and supercars alike - maintaining one (in case anything other than regular maintenance crops up) will be a pain in any case, with only minor differences between manufacturers.

Honda is better in terms of the regular service costs, but that too mainly because they don't maintain a seperate service network of their own.

Hope you get the bike back on the roads soon.

[sachinwadhwani]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Sad to know of that experience Sachin.

Unfortunately that's a reality with the number of bikes getting sold in our market. Superbikes and supercars alike - maintaining one (in case anything other than regular maintenance crops up) will be a pain in any case, with only minor differences between manufacturers.

Honda is better in terms of the regular service costs, but that too mainly because they don't maintain a seperate service network of their own.

Hope you get the bike back on the roads soon.

Thank you crazy driver!

Well lesson learnt! Never buy a newly launched bike from any SBK brand in India and. Wait for 6-8 months for reviews on the quality and also for parts to come in.

[davids4x4mm550]

Thanks for the review very insightful.
Is the Africa Twin coming as a CKD or a CBU in India?

[Bhatman510]

Originally Posted by sachinwadhwani

Thank you crazy driver!

Well lesson learnt! Never buy a newly launched bike from any SBK brand in India and. Wait for 6-8 months for reviews on the quality and also for parts to come in.

If it gets real ugly some of us TBHPians from the US can try to source some parts from the dealers we have here (CA is popular for ADV bikes).

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by davids4x4mm550

Thanks for the review very insightful.
Is the Africa Twin coming as a CKD or a CBU in India?

Thank you.

Its a CKD assembly - and hence the competitive pricing for the Africa Twin.

[davids4x4mm550]

Originally Posted by sachinwadhwani

I love this bike. Ive owned it for 3 months and the only thing I find I don't like is the extra weight of the DCT and the tires are pure A grade trash.

Also, a word of caution. Honda 2 Wheelers India has NO parts for this bike. Earlier it was the other SBK manufacturers that harrowed you for service and spares, the issue/habit seems to have caught up with Honda too.

I lost the right footpeg and scratched my hand-guards and right indicators in an incident. I left my bike with Honda for first service and to replace these parts and its been 3 weeks and no parts and no indication of date of delivery.

So ya, it's a great bike but nothing to back it up in terms of parts from Honda.

Hi Sachin,

Sorry about the bad experience you had to face. But would it not be better to source some aftermarket parts for your bike instead. reviews online show the foot pegs are too thin. But yea when you put your money down on something you wold expect better service.

Could you share your buying experience, delivery time and actual OTR cost?
The dealer in pune is least interested when i called and have no demo bikes or even display bikes. They referred me to the Mumbai dealer.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by proton

I suppose the only argument for high powered machines like the GS1200 and the 4 wheel equivalent, a Bentley Continental, is the addiction to power. After all, getting from point A to B can be done equally well with a Suzuki Alto, and going by your logic, there would be no takers for the Bentley.

But, surprise surprise! There ARE such takers, else the manufacturers would have long gone out of business!

Well, such manufacturers have all been nearly (or actually) bankrupt at a number of points over the years. The few "takers" are almost irrelevant at this point... new owners of the Bentley name, as well as the Bugatti name, Lamborghini name, etc, are not making any money on such cars. It is strictly about boosting company image, maybe at some level a tech testbed, as well. They're not building these because people think they're worth the money - by the usual measures they're certainly not, and the few purchased units are going to be hardly driven anyway.

That said, a Bentley is about a lot more than power addiction. I mean, have you ever taken a close look at the quality of the panel fitment, paint and upholstering in one? Simply stunning. Still hand built, AFAIK. These are works of art, and very exclusive. There is a LOT of specialized craft / skill / tech put into the production of Bentleys and the exotics.

Coming to something like the Africa Twin, or even the GS, there is really no comparison. These are both very much mass-produced bikes that a great many people are happily riding daily in certain contexts. Realistically though, decent GS engine copies are being cranked out in China at a small fraction of the German price (as are Honda dual-sport copies in Taiwan). Neither bike is such a great step above other bikes in terms of quality, power, or whatever else. Throw in a huge import duty, and the claimed VFM argument for the Twin, just because it costs less than a GS, is wholly lost on me.

My point certainly had nothing to do with merely getting from point A to B. The question was actually about what would do it most satisfyingly and feasibly for enthusiasts riding within a given context. And IMO, and on the basis of what a lot of adv riders I've met out here have indicated, relatively heavy/overpowered bikes are just not as satisfying to ride in most of the subcontinent as the lighter, more agile stuff.

-Eric

[proton]

Originally Posted by ringoism

My point certainly had nothing to do with merely getting from point A to B. The question was actually about what would do it most satisfyingly and feasibly for enthusiasts riding within a given context. And IMO, and on the basis of what a lot of adv riders I've met out here have indicated, relatively heavy/overpowered bikes are just not as satisfying to ride in most of the subcontinent as the lighter, more agile stuff.

-Eric

Your rebuttals are moot. Those who have tested the Africa Twin feel it a worthy upgrade from the Versys 650, worth considering because it is more powerful, whilst the Versys is boring, and feels LIGHTER than the Versys. Apparently, takers exist for it.

Someone expressed a desire on the Versys 300 for a bike that takes them from Delhi to Leh without involving a train or truck. There was no existing, VFM solution. Now there is. For those in the market.

I buy stuff like smartphones and laptops, and always find something lacking. However, there is a satisfaction derived from solving problems, and each upgrade makes me happier, when the manufacturer identifies what the customer wants and study from the buyerś side identifies those solutions, agrees and acknowledges their worth. The CON list becomes smaller.

It´s called making informed decisions. That´s why we have forums like Team Bhp.