[narula123]

Originally Posted by balenopower

Really? your saying you will upgrade from the Busa for 'more' power and speed? Im guessing you're already hitting 299kmph and redlining in every gear for you to need more power

The only thing to my mind which is more mental than the Busa on the power & speed aspect would be an H2.

Or then, one can always go and hide a little turbocharger somewhere inside that zuki fairing and have some fun

[rajaghuru]

Originally Posted by mail4ajo

Similar feelings here. It's a big machine that commands respect and you better give it. It was a bike that I feared. Even on group rides, if a Busa is around, stay clear.

But all that changed when I took the courage to ride it. My plan was to do the GSX S750 only but last minute, decided to ride the Busa. It's surprising easy to ride and not as intimidating as it looks. The extra weight is hard to manage at stops. Receives a lot of respect even from big trucks. Used ones sells for cheap here.

The GSX-S750 in Red, looks dope! While the Busa is undoubtedly a legend and requires a clear head on one's shoulders to ride it the way it should be, the Gixxes 750 is the better suited ride, in the Indian context. Hopefully, Suzuki brings that to India, along with the Versys 650 (XT incl.). Fingers crossed!

[Ford5]

May i give a little car analogy here to justify/rant about why 4 big ones on the 14r is worth it over the pergerine falcon... It's my humble opinion though.

Put simply it's like a modern Porsche 911 GT3 Vs a run of the mill GTR. Both are incredibly insane & skilled drivers have a blast trying to shave of milli seconds over the previously best set time.

The Busa is like a GTR. As fast as a Porsche, but the 14r is just that much better, even milli second wise. Scalpel sharp & pure in it's final knock out punch which makes it faster than Busa's on strips under the best drag strip riders or under a seasoned wrist on street roads. 14r Demands 98 octane minimum, while the Busa works with 97.

So there you go, US$ pricing wise, a GTR is still cheaper than a competing Porsche by a big margin, but a Porsche is still a pick for those who believe in enjoying the purity while shaving off Milli seconds and paying a lot more for it.

Keep in mind. Above applies to stock setup only. I'd prefer a factory ready big boy, meant to be stock, than go hammer and tongs on a 1000cc modded to be quicker than a big boy on standing miles.

Happy to see mostly car aficionados/petrol heads talk about Gentlemen agreements here on 2 wheels(<300 kmph) on Team-BHP.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

18 Hayabusas sold last month. Compared to 14 N1000, 12 V650, 40 STripples etc. Suzuki must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Originally Posted by Ford5

May i give a little car analogy here to justify/rant about why 4 big ones on the 14r is worth it over the pergerine falcon... Put simply it's like a modern Porsche 911 GT3 Vs a run of the mill GTR. So there you go, US$ pricing wise, a GTR is still cheaper than a competing Porsche by a big margin, but a Porsche is still a pick for those who believe in enjoying the purity while shaving off Milli seconds and paying a lot more for it.

Oh my, here I go again... I could multi-quote this till I was blue in the face if I had the time/inclination...

Please people... can we be honest for a moment? Along with all the other India-market superbikes... these are simply not worth what one has to pay here. We sadly do not get U.S. pricing (9.34L), and eighteen units (under a hundred in total large-capacity bike sales of the mentioned models) cannot possibly be considered "selling well" vs indigenously produced sporting/performance bikes (I do not say super) bikes.

Truth is that not many can properly hang onto even a 390 in typical subcontinental road conditions, and some I know have traded the big one for the 200 for that reason. Almost no non-pro rider anywhere in the world can exploit whatever "advantages" a bike like this offers over competitors or smaller machines - even on EU autobahns, etc. How much R&D and material costs, realistically, are going into this class of bikes vs. some pretty decent, modern road cars that can be had in India for considerably less (even half, I'd venture)?

Compare actual Hayabusa (or whichever big-bike) sales to the number of people raving in these threads about the eminently reasonable pricing (same for the Africa Twin recently), and I think you begin to see the reality here. As the old saying goes, "Money talks, BS walks".

All this whilst a huge market for middle-weights (even lightweights) is simmering worldwide - even in lands - like the U.S. - where highway speeds are typically much higher (and where unforeseen obstacles on them are far less - and where a lot of people still die / become permanently incapacitated on big bikes!). Put away the posing, and a mid-sizer will do all you need / want it to and more.


The 'busa and others may be fair enough deals abroad, where they still cost less new than about any car new (even fairer second-hand at 2-3L for an excellent one). But definitely not here, where you are paying near 5L extra just to cross the border, essentially. Not for tech, not for performance, not for R&D, not for any usable potential or resale value. Will somebody please explain to me how that is reasonable?




Check out places like Thailand where there is a very widespread and avid biking community, but the focus has remained on high-performance smaller-displacement bikes (and wow, have they got some great ones!).

Enthusiasm and lunacy are entirely different things. If you have the money and think a liter (/+) will make you happy, feel free to try it, but the honest truth is that a lot of others are going to be even happier than you. And they will be riding better-suited machines that cost a small fraction of the price. They definitely will have statistically higher life-expectancy, as well.

None of this even delving into the question of whether any machine can make a person truly happy and content in this world...

There have certainly been happier souls walking dirt roads in chappals...

Perhaps one day I will join them.

-Eric

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Please people... can we be honest for a moment? Along with all the other India-market superbikes... these are simply not worth what one has to pay here. We sadly do not get U.S. pricing (9.34L), and eighteen units (under a hundred in total large-capacity bike sales of the mentioned models) cannot possibly be considered "selling well" vs indigenously produced sporting/performance bikes (I do not say super) bikes.

Unfortunately, we don't. However, pricing and sales are always compared with respect to competing models and yes - I do repeat - Busa is both priced and selling well. Its a fact which should stand true till a competitor goes ahead and either assembles or builds their machine in India to achieve an even better price.

If you expect a 13L ex showrooom price to sell as much as a 2.5L indigenously produced bike (the most expensive being the KTM 390) - I really do not have any reply on that. However, its funny that it does even compare on monetary terms. 340 units of Duke 390 sold last month against 18 units of Busa and thats 1/3rd of the money even though these are classes apart! Insane. Now that's one more statistic for it to be mentioned as "selling well".

Originally Posted by ringoism

The 'busa and others may be fair enough deals abroad, where they still cost less new than about any car new (even fairer second-hand at 2-3L for an excellent one). But definitely not here, where [b]you are paying near 5L extra just to cross the border, essentially. Not for tech, not for performance, not for R&D, not for any usable potential or resale value. Will somebody please explain to me how that is reasonable?

The culprits are called by a few different names.

Customs Duty
Education Cess
Secondary Higher Education Cess
Contravailing Duty (CVD)
Additional Contravailing Duty
Additional Cess
National Calamity Contigent Duty (NCCD)

All of these guys work together to make a CKD motorcycle more expensive in India. Yes, you are paying for the vehicle to just cross the border, in bits and pieces to be assembled here. Customs duty is the biggest culprit though and this guy absolutely hates it when machines cross the border in bigger pieces.

Two-wheeler CBUs with engine capacity <800 cc = 60 %
Two-wheeler CBUs with engine capacity >=800 cc 75 %

CKD containing engine or gearbox or transmission mechanism in pre-assembled form but not mounted on a chassis or a body assembly = 30 %

Hayabusa, Ninja 1000 and Africa Twin are all following the CKD route and hence the general comment by people that they are priced well in India.

If its any consolation - you are contributing to the growth of the nation, the education of the poor, and its preparedness for natural calamities - when you go ahead and buy a CKD motorcycle. Want even more patriotism? Government allows to pay even more with CBU.

This concept is not even alien to premium bikes. Taking an example of the S60 Polestar which is considered a brilliant value at 50L ex showroom being a CBU unit where you can be rest assured that more than half of your money is just being blown up on customs duty. You could either compare it to the overpriced segment direct rivals and see the value in it, or like with your recent posts - say these are not value because of US pricing and then go on to argue how a guy in a Honda City could have more fun given our road conditions - thus making the others insane for buying something more expensive beyond the City.

Originally Posted by ringoism

Truth is that not many can properly hang onto even a 390 in typical subcontinental road conditions, and some I know have traded the big one for the 200 for that reason.

Compare actual Hayabusa (or whichever big-bike) sales to the number of people raving in these threads about the eminently reasonable pricing (same for the Africa Twin recently), and I think you begin to see the reality here. As the old saying goes, "Money talks, BS walks".

Put away the posing, and a mid-sizer will do all you need / want it to and more.

Enthusiasm and lunacy are entirely different things. If you have the money and think a liter (/+) will make you happy, feel free to try it, but the honest truth is that a lot of others are going to be even happier than you. And they will be riding better-suited machines that cost a small fraction of the price. They definitely will have statistically higher life-expectancy, as well.

There have certainly been happier souls walking dirt roads in chappals...

I understand you like your 200s more than the bigger machines and that you feel they are best suited for having the most fun.

Perhaps you should start a seperate thread on the topic Eric. Or you could have this debate on a more appropriate thread like this one - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...otorcycle.html

Because if you keep going at this in most threads with the "holier than thou" attitude evident from the usage of the words BS, lunacy etc in your description of the opposing view points - it might end up as trolling and probably worth nothing more.

[Ford5]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Oh my, here I go again... I could multi-quote this till I was blue in the face if I had the time/inclination...

Perhaps one day I will join them.

Costs will never remain stagnant, it will always go up.

As rightly pointed out in the above post, India is befuddled with a myriad of taxes & the only place you'll find a uniform, comparable price for these bikes is USA/Canada and Japan irrespective of CBU/Semi Knocked down kits.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Unfortunately, we don't. However, pricing and sales are always compared with respect to competing models ...

CKD containing engine or gearbox or transmission mechanism in pre-assembled form but not mounted on a chassis or a body assembly = 30 %

Hayabusa, Ninja 1000 and Africa Twin are all following the CKD route and hence the general comment by people that they are priced well in India.

If its any consolation - you are contributing to the growth of the nation, the education of the poor, and its preparedness for natural calamities - when you go ahead and buy a CKD motorcycle. Want even more patriotism? Government allows to pay even more with CBU.

I understand you like your 200s more than the bigger machines and that you feel they are best suited for having the most fun.

Perhaps you should start a seperate thread on the topic Eric. Or you could have this debate on a more appropriate thread like this one - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...otorcycle.html

Because if you keep going at this in most threads with the "holier than thou" attitude evident from the usage of the words BS, lunacy etc in your description of the opposing view points - it might end up as trolling and probably worth nothing more.

Hey, man. Thanks, I might've been pushing my points / use of words, sorry. And I had no idea you'd started both threads, till after I'd written all this and checked your profile so definitely not trolling.

But re: lunacy (eh...Crazy Driver ??!!), contributors were speaking of the bike's insane/ludicrous power - and then of turbocharging one. ???!!)! So ask what kind of chap (or chick) does it take to ride one??? Can't deny that motoring can involve a degree of madness, of which I've sometimes fallen into, most often on powerful two-wheelers. I'm sure we agree there!!!

But seriously everyone, my apologies, not even attempting debate ... I follow the "Hot Threads" and it came up there as did the Africa Twin, with what seemed widespread enthusiasm, little alternative perspective, and not many likely ready to buy the bike personally. No point in forming another thread when the one suggested (which I see now Crazy Driver also started!) is sufficient (and formerly known to me). Exchange of thoughts, perhaps too strongly stated, not wanting to alienate fellow members or even my own riding partners, all of whom as of recently are riding larger bikes of 650-1000cc. So truly sorry guys.

Goal was to add perspective, some of which has developed on the basis of riding with same buddies, hearing not entirely positive things they've said of their own choices. Also hearing too many tragic endings both sides of the globe. I’m NOT personally stuck on 200cc bikes, I’ve got a 350 and 500 and have enjoyed riding some 750+cc bikes (GS750, Ducati ST-4 (916-powered), V45 Magna, Bonnie and Tiger - eager right-wristedly whenever possible). All nice. But.

BTW we both mis-stated one thing: in truth buyers are paying more than 5L to get it across the border - because the North American governments aren’t letting them in for free, either, yet manage under 9.5L. We’re speaking of the difference in tax rates/M(S)RP's. They seem excessive here.

BUT: you make some very good points.

Especially re: the Education Cess and other contributions to national development, which I was unaware of. In that sense we’re seeing "progressive taxation" where in effect the wealthier will finance a greater share. For people with loads of unused cash available, why not toss several lakhs to the government, for the sake of the people? I’ve got no issues there.

IF on the other hand someone’s contemplating stretching available credit / financing to do it (as a fair number do), and neither gaining real-world capabilities nor sheer riding pleasure out of it, then you’ve become a slave, not a master. On those lines recently read a post in a Duke thread where a guy was trying to get out of his Versys least painfully, in view of great options at a fraction of his new/ongoing costs (God, I hope that wasn't also Crazy D!!!). I maintain that beyond any value as a showpiece / posing tool (the ‘Busa certainly fits that bill), most riders here are going to be able to derive as much or more satisfaction from far less extravagant bikes. That’s all. Just wait till someone scratches that huge, shiny, broad (unprotected) fairing in a crammed parking slot the first time (and second, and third...). Or God forbid it gets dropped even lightly.

Still, why restrict to peer price comparison, when people freely do shift across segments when it comes to cars, houses, boats, properties, clothing, watches, etc - on the basis of what actually makes sense? Broader considerations, okay? In proportion to many other things in life, big bikes here (unlike elsewhere in the world) are a pretty extravagant proposition, and as such, I’m not sure we even need to be talking about VFM or engaging in bargain-hunting – Just buy what you like; Considering resale values, these are not financial investments. If pockets are deep enough that several lakh in taxes doesn’t matter, then several lakhs either way in MRP hardly should either.

Summing up: I can’t deny their appeal, I wouldn’t mind owning one myself (if local roads suited it), but what's the actual “value” in view of common downsides, mindful that there would be very few takers if priced this way in other world markets???

******

The whole question of electronic riding controls, etc, was coming into it too. I guess it can be argued that they help a rider “grow” into a bike more safely, but at some level I feel that if you need all that, you're probably sitting on too powerful of a bike. You may well grow but the limits may keep getting pushed further and further ahead anyway till even those systems don’t help.

I rode with a buddy in the U.S. last year - I on my old DR350, he on a new BMW S1000XR. We rode from the suburbs an hour and a half out into the countryside – lovely day and place but we were still bogged down in traffic and stoplights a good bit of the time. When it finally opened up into 4-lanes, he too opened it up – a little – and (ha!) might’ve touched 130kmph briefly (more / longer than that and you risk having your license revoked if caught!). He’s a lovely guy and he’s got a lovely bike (which he got a great deal on as a previous-year leftover, much cheaper than the Indian Hayabusa). But never mind all the electronic controls – in those few hours even my 30bhp DR wasn’t using half its potential. The XR has 165bhp and ASC/ABS/etc - which do have their value with something this powerful, but how often do the capabilities / limits even come into it, within one’s usual riding context?

Anyway, I'll steer away from these threads for awhile, not continually go around inadvertently bursting gleamy balloons with pricks of realism :-) I won’t stand in your way, and once more, my apologies!

Thanks,
-Eric

PS - If it was my comment about my joining the happily chappal-clad souls that seemed holier-than-thou, let me assure you that it would probably come down to a thing of necessity... Retiring cheap in India had seemed an excellent idea at one time... but as noted, inflation can be a killer!!!

[Red Liner]

Eric, i agree with all your posts, what being an owner of a versys myself.

The thing is, you probably got plenty of time with these expensive machines back home. And then you traded down to lower capacity cycles. Its only then you will have a truly round perspective of both sides.

The same thing is happening here. More and more folks are biting into harleys first, then realize its a shitbag after 2 years, then bite into adv cycles that cost upwards of 10 big ones, then discover the joy of trails, then realize this behemoth is not something you take there, youtube be damned, and then add another one to their fleet which is cheap and does the job.

This will take a good while. Almost a couple of decades, because it is only in the past 5 years that the 650cc+ class has exploded in india, relatively atleast.

When i move to your side of our beautiful country, a small light dual purpose bike is big on my radar.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Eric, i agree with all your posts, what being an owner of a versys myself.

The thing is, you probably got plenty of time with these expensive machines back home. And then you traded down to lower capacity cycles. Its only then you will have a truly round perspective of both sides.

The same thing is happening here. More and more folks are biting into harleys first, then realize its a shitbag after 2 years, then bite into adv cycles that cost upwards of 10 big ones, then discover the joy of trails, then realize this behemoth is not something you take there, Youtube be damned, and then add another one to their fleet which is cheap and does the job.

This will take a good while. Almost a couple of decades, because it is only in the past 5 years that the 650cc+ class has exploded in india, relatively atleast.

When i move to your side of our beautiful country, a small light dual purpose bike is big on my radar.

Thanks, I appreciate that you can see the "cycle" (apart from the motorcycle) here. Related question is re: what makes a good all-round motorcycle. Some Americans own 3-5 bikes to cover their uses, but that is so often impractical, and like cameras, "the best one is the one you have with you". Personally would rather ride a Versys daily than scooty 95% / superbike 5%. And knowing one bike well can be kinda like knowing one woman well... Lot of benefits there.

A Delhi friend "upgraded" recently from an Electra/RD350 to a Ninja 650, and now he was having to literally crawl over speedbreakers everywhere to avoid damaging his silencer/bodywork/spine. Forget dirt (we'd been to Leh/Tso Moriri, he via Electra the previous year). Can hardly ride with his kids on the bike, pillion is terrifying / uncomfy for lack of anything to hold onto. Lot of weight on the wrists. He confessed, "It's really a selfish bike - honestly I just bought it so I could keep up with my riding partners". Well, we all went riding, I on that old RD (such a flat seat, plenteous ground-clearance, nimble and quick) and grinning the whole time - carefree, tossable, and keeping up well enough! Granted, as a 2-stroke it might have trouble cruising at 130+ all day and would pollute for 30 new bikes, but it's sporty, and world-tour capable (been done), "practical" and spares/service cheaper than a lot of premium modern stuff, and Anyway,...

...It's more a question of whether a middleweight in the 35-50bhp range with a good seat, suspension and riding position is really about all anyone needs for 90+% of real-world riding pretty much anywhere on the planet. The worldwide 650 V-Strom (/ likely Versys) sales cases in point. The RE Interceptor is looking pretty feasible that way too, incidentally...

If you're truly in the less than 0.01% that's regularly going to approach 299kmph (or even 199), or do world tours overloaded with baggage, fine, the big ones really can "make sense". But who actually does that... and is it really the most pleasure-inducing thing to do anyway?

Re: market timing: Reception was lukewarm when it entered the U.S. and it sold poorly, but I think I just discovered my new dreambike in an old Honda - the Japan-market XL400V (worldwide 600V) Transalp: More smiles, few hassles, broad capabilities. To me, the best of motorcycling. Looking back, current writers recognize its genius.

CrazyDriver's initiating these threads is great and from my perspective serves to generate discussion about what the market responds to. Just wish more of the current market could get excited about the same things I do - because I'd sure like to have a few more choices (then I could get rid of my own three bikes in favor of one, LOL!!!).

-Eric

PS Friend's BMW in the previous post was the S1000R, not XR. The naked Sport-Tourer. Not that it's an important distinction...

[bigron]

I am going to say that I do extensive touring on my Hayabusa and have not come across a single bike that balances performance with touring confort as this. No 650 cc middle weight nor a 1700 cc big bore metal monstrosity. Have covered over 40,000 on my current Gen 2 and was hovering around 50,000 kms on my Gen 1 before I let her go. Most of the guys in my group have covered kms in that vicinity. All of this is in India and for most part the roads were upto it.
I also believe that though I have paid a premium on my bike compared to my fellow riders in the US of A my usage has more than justified my purchase.
I dont see any reason to shift to a lower capacity bike because it is going to be easier or manageable to ride because it is not going to be just like I see no reason to upgrade.
A rider skill will run out far sooner that the bike will reach its capacity.
I also strongly believe that at 60 to 80 Kmph a big superbike is far safer than a 100/200cc commuter. Better balance, brakes everything.
The problem starts when the right wrist starts deciding things. That and when people with more money than grey matter just pick the biggest/fastest they can afford and than realize its a death machine.
On a side note , I do have a 1984 RD350 HT. I used to take it out sometimes but the two never coverd for each other. Everybike has its own place provided you get them to ride.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by bigron

I am going to say that I do extensive touring on my Hayabusa and have not come across a single bike that balances performance with touring confort as this. No 650 cc middle weight nor a 1700 cc big bore metal monstrosity. Have covered over 40,000 on my current Gen 2 and was hovering around 50,000 kms on my Gen 1 before I let her go. Most of the guys in my group have covered kms in that vicinity. All of this is in India and for most part the roads were upto it.
I also believe that though I have paid a premium on my bike compared to my fellow riders in the US of A my usage has more than justified my purchase.
I dont see any reason to shift to a lower capacity bike because it is going to be easier or manageable to ride because it is not going to be just like I see no reason to upgrade.
A rider skill will run out far sooner that the bike will reach its capacity.
I also strongly believe that at 60 to 80 Kmph a big superbike is far safer than a 100/200cc commuter. Better balance, brakes everything.
The problem starts when the right wrist starts deciding things. That and when people with more money than grey matter just pick the biggest/fastest they can afford and than realize its a death machine.
On a side note , I do have a 1984 RD350 HT. I used to take it out sometimes but the two never coverd for each other. Everybike has its own place provided you get them to ride.

In college a guy had an early FJ1200 which seemed pretty "sick" at the time considering that even the FZ600 was pretty thrilling. He'd take it out on I-20 to see "how fast it would go" - and it would go really fast - 265kmph+ as I recall. Later was surprised to learn that it was actually designed as a sport-tourer / decent all-round "gentleman's" roadbike more than a crotch rocket.

So I appreciate all your points here, and think a case can be made - certainly more so than for exotic cars (Ferrari, etc)!

Though in saying "the roads were for the most part up to it" I suspect one would have to be a bit selective about roads (or lack thereof) traveled.

For me the cost (incl. of running) and the fairings would make it impractical, but hey, if you're ever up in Manali do stop in, I wouldn't mind giving it a try! I just might change my mind... Or even just taking my mount and riding together someplace. Or just sitting over tea/coffee hearing stories of some of your tours.

On that line, what does a 'Busa with 50,000 on the clock go for second hand (I'm being serious)?

Thanks again,
-Eric

[bigron]

Yes, it does take a little planning to decide on what route to take. Apart from the roads, availability of quality fuel is a deciding factor. But this country has come a long way in terms of its road network in the last 30 years i feel.
Appreciate the invite.
I have ridden and driven to Manali a few times and actually once on the fat gixxer. It was okay but there are better motorcycles for the job purely due to the state of roads in that part at that time.
I am not aware of a lot many Hayabusas with 50 thousand odd kms on them for sale. Most of them are crashed all over the place by juveniles within the first 1000 km and the ones that do cross that threshold hardly see 5 digits because the rider wants to'UPGRADE'.
Used prices have come down after local assembly started.

[Ricci]

Revzilla did an article speculating what the 2019 Suzuki Hayabusa will be like, and behold - they refer to a photo of the alleged 2019 Hayabusa off a Japanese magazine, posted on Team BHP.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...uzuki-planning

[bigron]

That is a now old photo being shared in a lot of biking forums all over for a while now. The
general consensus is that though the body shape will remain bulbous like the original most work will be under the skin and addition of electronics and other modern parts like tft screen etc. 2020 should see a Gen 3 since the current model will be unable to meet the upcoming emission norms.

[volkman10]

Hayabusa prices dropped, in line with the recent custom duty reductions.

Suzuki’s popular Hayabusa has also seen a small reduction from Rs 13.87 lakh to Rs 13.59 lakh (all prices, ex-showroom, Delhi).

This price drop comes thanks to the recently announced 25 percent drop in CBU custom duties.

Link