[shyamg28]

I visited the recently opened Khivraj Triumph Whitefield showroom and then walked over to the Benelli-Keeway Whitefield showroom. The showroom is currently undergoing renovations and all the vehicles were standing outside.

They're running dedicated test rides on the 5/6/7 of September, for the Moto Morini X-Cape 650. Particularly, the SA advised that riders wear their riding gear so that they may take longish test rides (much appreciated). Better to call ahead and book a slot convenient to you if interested.

I got a chance to sit on the X-Cape for a bit and click a few pics.
A few things that I noticed -

- I was wondering how the tubeless spokes look/work and you can clearly make out the protrusion on the rims inside where the spokes start/end.
- The sitting ergos felt good. I'm 5.10 and a bit with boots and I was able to flat foot easily.
- The seat is nice and long and will provide plenty of repositioning.
- The screen is big. Planning to update my TV at home to this one if possible.
- Adjustability on both levers. Funnily, they're both different. No clue why that's the case. Afterthought? Or on purpose?
- Small touches like the gear lever being retractable. Good.
- Adjustable visor I believe. But not easy, without a tool that is. But relatively easy.
- The Pirelli Scorpion STRs look so so purposeful
- The bike has presence and looks mean according to me.

I think it's worth paying this product some attention over all.

[E30_325iSport]

The component selection on this Chinese bike (let's not kid ourselves this isn't Italian in any way) is impressive. Normally cycle parts are the first casualty of cost cutting but here there is a veritable laundry list of top names like KYB, Pirelli and Brembo. You've got to wonder how they can make it so cheaply (or where the real cost cutting has happened).

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

The component selection on this Chinese bike (let's not kid ourselves this isn't Italian in any way) is impressive. Normally cycle parts are the first casualty of cost cutting but here there is a veritable laundry list of top names like KYB, Pirelli and Brembo. You've got to wonder how they can make it so cheaply (or where the real cost cutting has happened).

This bike isn't made in China. In fact the Moto Morini brand isn't even sold in China!

Yes the company is owned by a Chinese company but the bikes itself are assembled in Italy. The engines are the only Chinese component as its a CF Moto engine imported from China to Italy to assemble.

That's why the other components (Brembo brakes, Marzocchi suspension etc) are what you will usually find on a European bike rather than on a Chinese bike made in China.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by bf1983

This bike isn't made in China. In fact the Moto Morini brand isn't even sold in China!

Yes the company is owned by a Chinese company but the bikes itself are assembled in Italy. The engines are the only Chinese component as its a CF Moto engine imported from China to Italy to assemble.

That's why the other components (Brembo brakes, Marzocchi suspension etc) are what you will usually find on a European bike rather than on a Chinese bike made in China.

I stand corrected thanks. If the engine is the only imported (low cost) component, it begs the question as to where the corners have been cut given the high-cost location that is Europe.

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

I stand corrected thanks. If the engine is the only imported (low cost) component, it begs the question as to where the corners have been cut given the high-cost location that is Europe.

The engine is by far the most expensive component of a bike so they are saving a lot over there. Other than that they are a very small operation with limited capacity so they are pricing their bikes to sell. The parent Chinese company is pretty big and they would want to establish the Moto Morini brand first before thinking about profits.

They just bought the brand and have just 2 models. They are trying to make a 1200cc V twin engine bike to be hopefully launched soon.

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

I stand corrected thanks. If the engine is the only imported (low cost) component, it begs the question as to where the corners have been cut given the high-cost location that is Europe.

BMW 3 series is manufactured in India and sold in Europe. First Automotive Works (FAW), a Chinese company, manufactures engines for Toyota, including the Vellfire, GR86, Corolla and Crown. By your logic, then these cars also have corners cut? What's your point?

Its not healthy to bash a company just because they have parts or components manufactured in China.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by no_fear

BMW 3 series is manufactured in India and sold in Europe. First Automotive Works (FAW), a Chinese company, manufactures engines for Toyota, including the Vellfire, GR86, Corolla and Crown. By your logic, then these cars also have corners cut? What's your point?

Its not healthy to bash a company just because they have parts or components manufactured in China.

My point is quite simple. Conceptualising, creating and manufacturing a product in a high cost location is a deterrent for a cost-conscious target market, or a deterrent to margins to put it another way. Why is this so difficult to follow?

You miss the nuance on China. iPhones are/were made in China, yet they manage to make a premium product. So it is not China per se, but Apple's capability to exercise considerable oversight on quality. This is backed up by an atomised supply chain, world-beating sales and marketing, after sales etc. It is the same with your Toyota example. So you have a product generating significant margin by virtue of being manufactured/assembled in a low cost location (or) significant componentry sourced from a low cost location.

Now put these two points together and you may see what I'm trying to get at. You have a historic nameplate, a very small team, a Chinese parent (with what looks like great local experience in low cost products, but limited overseas experience and certainly not with premium products, unlike Geely for example), operating from a high cost base, trying to compete with established premium competition. It is also unlikely that they have anywhere near the economies of scale of the established players.

The intriguing thing about the product in question is that on the face of it is has all the right components, with what looks like fairly good quality control as well. So what is the catch?

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

My point is quite simple. Conceptualising, creating and manufacturing a product in a high cost location is a deterrent for a cost-conscious target market, or a deterrent to margins to put it another way. ......... So what is the catch?

You are ignoring the economies of scale in your response.

CF Moto makes engines for KTM. It's a joint venture they have been doing since 2017. Most mass scale engines are not developed in house, but are usually outsourced to companies to keep costs low. CF develops engines for KTM, and they used that blueprint to make the engine for Moto Morini. They already have the expertise and R&D, so the costs to "create" this engine is significantly low. The same approach is replicated in India, where a company called Endurance Technologies develops engines and parts for KTM.

Your view is solely from a cost perspective. Just because you think it's low cost in China, the product quality is low.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by no_fear

You are ignoring the economies of scale in your response.

CF Moto makes engines for KTM. It's a joint venture they have been doing since 2017. Most mass scale engines are not developed in house, but are usually outsourced to companies to keep costs low. CF develops engines for KTM, and they used that blueprint to make the engine for Moto Morini. They already have the expertise and R&D, so the costs to "create" this engine is significantly low. The same approach is replicated in India, where a company called Endurance Technologies develops engines and parts for KTM.

Your view is solely from a cost perspective. Just because you think it's low cost in China, the product quality is low.

Please re-read my post, specifically the point where I have mentioned economies of scale. MM cannot have the economies of scale of the others, nor the sourcing power. That is indisputable. At a Bill of Materials level their component sourcing cost will be considerably higher than that of the established players.

Your conclusion is also incorrect, I have not equated product quality with cost. I have made it clear that there is a link, but with adequate oversight (Apple, Toyota) the quality concerns can be mitigated, translating into margin.

Overall, the equation still remains. Granted the engine is outsourced from CFMoto, but the other points are still valid. How are MM able to offer such a competitively priced product without resorting to obvious cost cutting, for example brakes by Brembo, not ByBre which is a value product on Brembo's portfolio and adopted by the likes of RE.

Also, you mention that KTM's engines are 'developed' by CFMoto. I may be wrong, but is it not the case that CFMoto are in fact a production partner to KTM? KTM in turn provide distribution for CFMoto in key markets, given their market presence.

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

At a Bill of Materials level their component sourcing cost will be considerably higher than that of the established players.

How are MM able to offer such a competitively priced product without resorting to obvious cost cutting, for example brakes by Brembo, not ByBre which is a value product on Brembo's portfolio and adopted by the likes of RE.

KTM in turn provide distribution for CFMoto in key markets, given their market presence.

1.Why does their component sourcing cost have to be higher? They are buying wholesale from suppliers, they have pre-agreed contract terms.

2. Why does competitively priced product have anything to do with cost cutting? I fail to understand this logic. Quality materials like Brembo don't cost an arm and a leg.

3. CF Moto manufactures for KTM in China.

I think we have discussed in depth. No point hijacking this thread. Moving on.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by no_fear

1.Why does their component sourcing cost have to be higher? They are buying wholesale from suppliers, they have pre-agreed contract terms.

2. Why does competitively priced product have anything to do with cost cutting? I fail to understand this logic. Quality materials like Brembo don't cost an arm and a leg.

3. CF Moto manufactures for KTM in China.

I think we have discussed in depth. No point hijacking this thread. Moving on.

1. Economies of scale, purchasing power, volume discounts etc etc. Look it up. Contract terms don't mean anything in the context of this discussion, unless you are privy to them (and contracts these suppliers have with MM's competitors for a meaningful comparison).
2. Quality costs money, I can't believe this needs to be explained! This cost may be absorbed depending on the target market, pricing and customer perception: see platform sharing in the passenger car segment for example. You can of course be competitively priced AND high quality, but your margins will suffer.
3. Yes I know, that's why I said CFM is KTM's production partner, with KTM helping with European distribution of CFM branded products.

We don't have to agree, it’s just a healthy discussion so it's all good.

[Axe77]

Mod Note: We've debated this aspect enough. Lets please move on from this and allow broader discussion on the brand's entry into India and the products itself. Thank you for your understanding.

[AtheK]

good discussion, and I will refrain to add anything more to prolong it. That said I have hardly seen any of these bikes in flesh yet, any one else got a chance to have a view or pick one?

[cataclysm]

I was about to ask the same, has anyone seen this in on the road? I love the way it looks, and the initial reviews were also positive. But after the fanfare there's been radio silence.

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by AtheK

good discussion, and I will refrain to add anything more to prolong it. That said I have hardly seen any of these bikes in flesh yet, any one else got a chance to have a view or pick one?

It's not yet sold in India. They kinda did a very early launch. Their dealership set up is still not finalised.

IMO they should have done a proper launch once the bike was available to be sold as all the initial marketing they did has gone to waste as no one is able to buy any of their models.