[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by GTO - Touring

The Grande actually doesn't do that well here. The skid plate and intercooler are placed pretty low, so much that you wouldn't really want to take it over roads too rough. Also, the soft suspension makes it sit lower when laden.

Sumo Grande ground clearance is 180mm, exactly the same as the Scorpio. The fact that the Sumo Grande has skid plates is a plus not a minus, if they are strong. Innova is 185mm and Safari is well over 200mm, 205mm, I think. 180mm is not low, it is also not real high. By way of contrast, a Maruti Alto's G.C. is 160mm.

Vaspro, Tata Xenon? In the pickup bed you could install a nice mother-in-law seat. But, dude, it's his mother he is hauling, not his mother-in-law.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by GTO - Touring

A Safari is not going to be the best to maintain in areas of scarce service support. In terms of reliability, I'd give the Scorpio higher marks than the Safari, but if we are looking at sheer reliability....it is the Innova followed by the Bolero.

We disagree on this count - the reliability issue. We also disagree on what has been put up on the forum's review page, so lets leave it at that.

The Safari is as reliable or unreliable as a Mahindra vehicle - there isnt much to choose between the two. It so happens that people that have changed Fuel Pumps 4 times on the same Scorpio have not discussed it on the forum, while those that left a window ajar on a Safari have posted threads about humming noises.

As for service support, TML's service network is quite widespread and is available in every corner of the country. The fact that service quality is inconsistent is however a fact, though this isnt very different from M&M's official service network which people dont bother going to, at least in my part of the country. They'd much rather go to a roadside garage.

As Double D (Dirty Dan) pointed out, the GC of the Scorp isnt much (lower than Innova?) and if you go for the version with Skirts (as seen in the newer models) then it comes down even further, I guess. However, the Innova does have a marginally longer wheelbase at 2750mm (Scorpio 2680, Sumo Grand 2550). Therefore with the same GC and a shorter wheelbase, the Sumo Grande should actually be able to cope up with the terrain better than a Scorp. It doesnt have a 4x4 option which the Scorp has, though.

I think the gentleman in question should try out a Safari, all said and done. Better GC, more power, more space, more comfort - these are undeniable facts. As for the perceived maintenance issues, there are enough and more Safari owners out here on the forum for the thread initiator to talk to directly and figure out.

[anupmathur]

Strange are the ways of the Lord - that Scorpio owners tend to 'supress' information and only the dyed in wool populace buys the Safari!

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

It so happens that people that have changed Fuel Pumps 4 times on the same Scorpio have not discussed it on the forum, while those that left a window ajar on a Safari have posted threads about humming noises.

I guess people are jittery even after having bought the safari. Why ? It can't be just the forum.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

I guess people are jittery even after having bought the safari. Why ? It can't be just the forum.

That is the perception issue. When you've been told that a vehicle isnt reliable, I guess you tend to start worrying about every little thing.

However, the intent of my post is not to start a Scorp/Safari war - god knows there are enough of them around. My post is directed to the thread initiator so that he is made aware of facts as opposed to sentiment.

Each of these vehicles have merits - however, obvious merits or advantages should not be written off with sweeping statements about things that cannot be - or have not been - measured or quantified.

[shankar.balan]

my pleasure Bliss.
now to get to grips with your queries/doubts- plse see next to your post in bold

Originally Posted by bliss_now

Shankar, Thanks for the detailed post. All points noted especially the one about 7-seater.

In my original post I had mentioned that I’ll head back sometime in year 2009. Hopefully around June or maybe earlier – I wake up everyday and the first thing that comes to my mind is the pristine nature that surrounds the farm. lots of new vehicles will be available for you by June 09. And I completely empathise with your apparent love of pristine nature

Can I get some feedback on the following models? I have put down my comments.

Scorpio LX with 2.6 Crde
Pros: Makes sense economically to get the basic model and upgrade where required. Personally I may not require any upgrade. - agreed. great vehicle. Can upgrade as per your own choice and add frills which YOU feel are worthwhile. However IMHO go for the 2.2 engine - new tech.
Cons: 2.6 Crde Vs 2.2 mHawk. Clear generation gap. Body roll issues.
Body roll issues are a bit of a myth - i have tried to dispel these myths in my writeups of usage of the Scorpio in different conditions. 2.2 MHAWK is a clear winner since it is new tech vs old 2.6 tech. New improved suspension at rear makes this vehicle pretty comfortable - my experience with my 6 ft tall 95 kilo plus Dad sitting in the back proves it. And my Mum sitting in front was absolutely comfortable AND secure.

Scorpio VLS with 2.2 mHawk - this is the new variant of the MHAWK which comes with ABS as standard. WORTH IT, IMHO - 10.94 Lacs OTR BLR. This is the vehicle that will (in more variants) slowly replace the older technology 2.6 Crde engine. This product is at the beginning of its product life cycle as of now.
Pros: New Generation engine. Better FE. Plus all that tweaking performed by Lotus engineers. (Really how much of this Lotus thing is marketing?)
Cons: Forced to buy bells and whistles as part of the package. dont pay too much attention to all that you hear- better to evaluate user opinions and decide whats best for you. anyway with VLS the bells and whistles (and price) have been reduced.

Scorpio 2.2 mHawk, full Hybrid
Any news about this? Expected by mid 2009? I would be very interested.
Superb possibility- CAR magazine has a test drive review on this vehicle. Monster Battery plus MHAWK diesel power. Will be expensive once it comes out but it is the "green" technology being touted for the future.

Bolero SLX with Crde (speculated)
Pros: Cheaper than Scorpio.
Cons: 2.6 Crde Vs 2.2 mHawk. Clear generation gap.
Duff the ball on this one - stick to the higher end vehicles since you do have the budget.

Any possibility of Scorpio LX with 2.2 mHawk and ABS only? (VLS MHAWK has already come, cheaper than VLX- only a matter of time before more variants are introduced.)

Cheers.

cheers:

[GTO]

Ah, you bet we disagree, Steer!

Forget someone else's car, lets look at your Safari itself. You have got like what......15 - 18 replacements already? My C Class probably had lesser part replacements than that, and was officially classified as a lemon. No ways am I going to call my C180 reliable and neither am I going to call your Safari that. Sure, most of your part replacements were from OEM suppliers, but you have paid Tata for the complete car (and their QC / assembling of the same). Not for individual parts.

The Scorpio has probably sold 5X more than the Safari in the last 4 years (of Team-BHP's inception). How come then, we see more complaints of the Safari than of the Scorpio?

It so happens that people that have changed Fuel Pumps 4 times on the same Scorpio have not discussed it on the forum, while those that left a window ajar on a Safari have posted threads about humming noises.

Are you trying to imply that Safari owners are more vocal about their problems than Scorpio owners? Gimme a break man. There are disclosers and the secretive in any group. Neither the Scorpio or Safari are Toyota reliable, but the Scorpio does have lesser problems per vehicle than the Safari does.

The Safari is as reliable or unreliable as a Mahindra vehicle

Incorrect. The Bolero is far more reliable than the Safari. If reliability is of paramount importance, then its either the Bolero or the Innova for this gentleman.

I'll give the Safari ride quality and comfort.....I'll give it power & image, but I certainly won't give it reliability.

Sumo Grande ground clearance is 180mm, exactly the same as the Scorpio. The fact that the Sumo Grande has skid plates is a plus not a minus, if they are strong. Innova is 185mm and Safari is well over 200mm, 205mm, I think. 180mm is not low, it is also not real high.

Therefore with the same GC and a shorter wheelbase, the Sumo Grande should actually be able to cope up with the terrain better than a Scorp. It doesnt have a 4x4 option which the Scorp has, though.

GC numbers, by themself, offer a limited insight. GC of 180 yes....but what is the lowest part. IIRC you have testdriven the Grande? Did you notice how low the intercooler is and what kind of (or lack of) protection it has. Thats not the kind of UV I am going to be comfortable with, in rough terrain. Not to mention the overtly soft suspension which will affect the GC even more when laden.

[anupmathur]

Thank you sir! That needed to be said.
Comes across as a rational and objective evaluation.
It will go a long way toward clearing certain issues for a lot of folk who turn to T-BHP seeking advice.

[dicorex4x4]

I think what Steeroid meant was Safari owners are more open with their problems / issues / doubts / concerns. To the thread initiator, please do a test drive of the Safari before you decide. You may not buy it eventually but I guarantee it'll make you view the Safari in a different light.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by GTO

The Scorpio has probably sold 5X more than the Safari in the last 4 years (of Team-BHP's inception). How come then, we see more complaints of the Safari than of the Scorpio?

Agree with your basic logic here, but 5x is not the number. Its more like the Bolero has sold 5x the rest !

New safaris in delhi are more common than new 2.6s or the odd 2.2. And I do about 1500-2000km monthly in Delhi from most of gurgaon to central/south delhi. The new safari has definitely sold quite well.
Can someone break up vasudeva's domestic sales excel sheet to help us resolve this number, once and for all?

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Can someone break up vasudeva's domestic sales excel sheet to help us resolve this number, once and for all?

I'm afraid it's nothing to do with the precise number of vehicles sold.

Even if the new additions to Delhi traffic are more Safaris than Scorpios, it still does not affect what GTO mentioned.
That is a 'track record' being talked about.
A flurry of new entrants in a city do not establish a track record - only time will tell.

Thus far in time, what he said is valid.

[DirtyDan]

I find these Mahindra-Tata wars tiresome reading. I do not believe Steeroid or GTO and I regard them both as dangerous fanatics and automotive provocateurs. They both should be placed under surveilance by the C.I.A, the K.G.B. and the League of Women Voters.

How does one know that there are problems that go unreported by owners of a certain vehicle if in fact the problems are unreported? Give me a break. I am stupid but after a few minutes and some pounding of my forehead with my fist my tired old brain pan concludes that there is something not right about that notion.

As for the intercooler on the Grande Sumo, it is not that low, it is not that expensive to replace, if it breaks this will not stop you cold and a good mechanic can probably be found who can raise the accursed thing a few millimeters if it is really an issue.

Innova is best, both Mahindra and Tata may present you with some niggling probems. If you are unlucky any of the 3 or any other car might bite you right in the A.S.S. (After Sales Service)

[bliss_now]

Apologies. Very busy at work. Thanks for all the feedback. Will come back with specific queries.
cheers.

[shankar.balan]

ahoy there!!! Whoa Nellie! Rein in the arguments and wasted breath boys!!
all I would humbly say in this rather messy argumentative scenario is:

1.Lets be objective and answer BLISS's specific queries/ doubts ref his particular requirement.
2. Finally it is his money and his decision
3. What TBHP and all of us members are supposed to do, is to help someone make up his mind by giving objective feedback in a responsible manner, with a few subjective instances of personal experience, that s all.

So - while some of us are Safari fans and some of us are Mahindra aficionados and some of us well off blokes are Toyota or Pajero or Mercedes or whatever fans, be that as it may, all vehicles, Indian or otherwise are subject to some amount of niggles here and there - after all they are man made machines and anything can go wrong anytime.

Lets please decide to remain HONEST at all times. (remember the old Shakespearean quote - "To thine own self be true and it shall follow as night, the day...")

Lets confine ourselves therefore to answering the THREAD STARTER's queries rather than embark on this endless Odyssey of an argument!

cheerio and CHILL

[bliss_now]

Thanks for all the posts. Spent past few weeks browsing various threads and following some lively conversations on this forum. No more questions for now.

As mentioned, I’m planning to come back to India sometime in the mid of 2009. Maybe I will have more choices. But if nothing else changes then it sounds like Scorpio VLS for me. Of course I will TD both Safari 2.2 and Scorpio 2.2.

Nothing against Safari. It is just that Scorpio VLS meets my requirements just fine. My budget originally was 10L and I guess VLS with mHawk and ABS is worth the additional 10~15%. ABS in my Forester saved my day few years ago when I had to slam the brakes on a wet patch to avoid a wrong turn.

I would love to see a hybrid in the Scorpio/Safari category. Don’t mind paying additional 30% over my original 10L budget.

Cheers.