[AlokSriva]

Now that there is a comparison, I would put in my first hand perspective as well -

Outlander doesn't retain any value and your friend will have to sell it for peanuts after a couple of years whereas, Fortuner has the best resale value.

What a sweeping statement! Agreed that the resale of Outlander would be lower than that of a Fortuner, but it won't be fair to say OL would not retain any value. Please support 'doesn't retain any value' with data.

In case it really doesn't retain any value in your part of the world, please help me in getting as many as you can, I can make good money in my part of the world where it sure does retain respectable value

BTW, definition of differs from one person to another.

Toyota is a all rounder ... which is not the case with Mitsubishi's

Depends on whether the buyer really needs an all rounder?

Another factor that may come into play is the waiting period of fortuner.

Yep!

The downsides are iffy ride quality, spongy feeling brakes and interiors similar to the Innova

Yep, only thing is the moment ride quality/handling is brought into picture, it would be countered by stating that since this is an SUV, the benchmark of ride quality and handling shouldn't be that of a sedan.

A Fortuner is an extremely capable and reliable vehicle - as long you keep its LWB limitations in mind.

True.

The Outlander has a more luxurious feel, better handling and braking. But it only becomes fun to drive when you use the paddle shifters - and then fuel efficiency goes for a dive. Outlander is great for driving in the city, on highways and on dirt roads.

What's the big idea behind buying an AT if paddle shifts are what you end up using most of the times. For me it is the other way round - auto mode always and switching to paddle shifts when there is a genuine need to switch to a lower gear - ain't that the way paddle shifts ought to be used unless one is a big Schumi-fan and prefers driving in sports mode even in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

Fortuner is a robustly build workhorse that can last for 10+ years.

Trust me my friend, automobiles have come a long way and any and every car is capable of lasting that long. However, the rider is - in how good/bad hands the vehicle is.

* Toyota - brand name, quality, resale

Oh yes, Toyota's brand name is something which took a severe thrashing pretty recently. Pity that we have such a short memory.

* Much better A.S.S. than Mistubishi's beaten up A.S.S.

So very true.. With Toyota you get snooty sales and service folks complimentary! At least at MM, I get more humane and down to earth folks.

* Diesel engine, good mileage, lower running costs

There is not too significant difference in the running cost -
assuming 8 kmpl (mixed of highway+city) average for Outlander -> approx Rs. 6 per km
assuming 9 kmpl (mixed of highway+city) average for Fortuner -> approx Rs. 4.6 per km
*Fortuner owners can correct me if the mileage is more than what I have considered.
That's a pretty insignificant difference if I consider the additional features one would get in an Outlander (listed towards the end of my post)

* relatively cheaper parts cost than the outlander

In the segment we are talking about, parts are comparably priced and therefore, I am not too sure about the validity of this particular claim.

Low or high speed the suspension is not hard by any means, It is a very comfortable car and has excellent handling both at low and high speeds

Doubt that.. the test drives and ownership reviews on T-BHP gave an impression that the ride was hard at slow speeds. Maybe I need to go through the reviews again.
I am sure the statement related to excellent handling comes with a disclaimer which I mentioned above.

I agree the interiors of the Fortuner do not reek of elegance or give a rich feel like the outlander does but it does manage to deliver the goods

Sorry, at that price, when Outlander gives you all the creature comforts, Fortuner is left grossly wanting!

Take them offroad and the Fortuner would not even have to make an effort to eat the Outlander alive

LOL! This is the most hilarious one so far!! BTW, how many of the Fortuner owners would ever take their rides for true offroading?

HE WOULD BE THE LAST PERSON I know would go for an off-roading

There you go..
Oh, by the way, did I mention that Outlander comes with Cruise Control, electronic drive selecter (and not a sore thumb jutting out), all 4 discs, electronically powered driver seat, a turning radius of mere 5.3 meters, an auto tranny with 6 gears, traction control, EBD. Just that with all this, excellent handling and great ride comes as an add on.
Not that I offroad in my Outlander, but during these rains I am intentionally taking a road which has tar missing for about 0.5 kms. Mud coupled with rains has resulted in a heady mix of slush and uneven surface - my idea of offroading - and never have I been stuck in that slush nor have the wheels lost grip even for a fraction of a second.
Before I forget, When I sit inside an Outlander, somehow I am not reminded of another lesser car from the same stable.

[n.devdath]

[quote=akshay1234;2010701]Im quite sure its not built on a truck chassis, but it shares its chassis with the innova and the hilux. And the lever shift for the 4WD box seems a generation behind, even the safari and the endeavour have shift on the fly 4WD knobs./QUOTE]

That is what the Hilux is, a pick up truck. And, the lever shift 4wd, as all of us know is more reliable than an electronic gizmo.
See the Thar threads for reference. The lever shift is what is being offered and in demand as well. For a reliable 4wd vehicle,keep it simple, with minimum electronics is the name of the game.

Originally Posted by speedy

I agree and i just elaborated on what i know as i own the Fortuner and my Best friend she owns the Outlander. I also added what i have felt in ride qualities between the so called big boys and the smaller Fortuner ( small is purely price wise compared to the expensive SUV's).

All the best for your road test of the Fortuner and i hope she does not dissapoint you .

I am all for the Fortuner since it has been a resounding success at almost all countries of its launch. Moreover, for a person in the market for an expedition vehicle, reliability matters a lot.

MODS: Duplicate post, please delete. Thank You.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Im quite sure its not built on a truck chassis, but it shares its chassis with the innova and the hilux. And the lever shift for the 4WD box seems a generation behind, even the safari and the endeavour have shift on the fly 4WD knobs.

That is what the Hilux is, a pick up truck. And, the lever shift 4wd, as all of us know is more reliable than an electronic gizmo.
See the Thar threads for reference. The lever shift is what is being offered and in demand as well. For a reliable 4wd vehicle,keep it simple, with minimum electronics is the name of the game.

Originally Posted by speedy

I agree and i just elaborated on what i know as i own the Fortuner and my Best friend she owns the Outlander. I also added what i have felt in ride qualities between the so called big boys and the smaller Fortuner ( small is purely price wise compared to the expensive SUV's).

All the best for your road test of the Fortuner and i hope she does not dissapoint you .

I am all for the Fortuner since it has been a resounding success at almost all countries of its launch. Moreover, for a person in the market for an expedition vehicle, reliability matters a lot.

Calling the Fortuner a she??!! Never. It is a "he" and a smart and handsome "he" at that

[sbraj]

Originally Posted by AlokSriva

When I sit inside an Outlander, somehow I am not reminded of another lesser car from the same stable.

Yes, this is the biggest let down for the Fortuner.

But then, Toyota is not known for style, right? It is the reliability game that Toyota plays well, to score over the others.

BTW, road presence of Fortuner is among the best in this segment.

Originally Posted by suman

You didn't read this part of his post

OT - no, his post appeared after I posted. Due to moderator queue?

[suman]

Hmmm, interesting discussion. Since he's going to spend most of his time on good tarmac roads, I don't think the absence of a 4L will make much of a difference to him. And it sounds like he doesn't really care about the fact that Petrol is costlier than Diesel.

Besides, there are far too many Fortuners on the roads now so you should just ask him to get the Outlander. In BLACK

Originally Posted by sbraj

Fortuner bookings are closed for now. Speculation is that it may open again in early 2011. Fellow members have their car delivery date as late as March, 2011.

So, if your friend is indeed going for Fortuner, then he gets the next chance in the above time frame.

You didn't read this part of his post -

Originally Posted by New.Novice

The much talked about Waiting Period thingy with Fortuner is not a major concern for him for two reasons. 1. He actually wants a little delayed delivery as he wants to buy cash down and expecting some amount from his company's IPO slated for later this year. 2. His waiting period would actually be less as he has some very close relatives working with Toyota at some senior level.

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Oh BTW have you tested it extensively?

I could be wrong but I think he owns one......

[New.Novice]

Originally Posted by speedy

"The I have arrived" thingy would not be satisfied by either of the cars, for this he would need a Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche SUV. Toyota and Mitsubishi are not considered A listers by anyone.

You will have to see this "I have arrived" thing in perspective. e.g. A guy can still arrive big time driving his brand new Hero Honda in many Indian villages/very small towns. So while I agree with what you said, you will also have to concede that for us salaried middle class people, a Fortuner or an Outlander is big statement to make.

I am reading some of the most seasoned names of this forum on these pages, thanks a lot to all. This shows why this forum is mecca of sorts for automobile enthusiasts.

But, at the same time you all must agree by now that why it must be such a tough decision for him to make. Neither he nor I have any filmsy belives on our knowledge of cars but look, the stalwarts here are unable to come to a concensus.

I am truly learning a thing or two with every new post, please keep them coming. BTW, this BMW X1 suggested by Speedy has really sprung a surprise for both of us (we, me and my friend, are glued to these pages) given this being within 25 lacs in true.

I am newbie here and my posts take longer to appear. I will try and pitch in where ever I am required to give an input.

[ACM]

There has been too much debate about offroading and about which is a genuine offroader / softroader etc.

The user requirement are clearly mainly for city use and occational highway use, and definately not for highway use.

When one talks about arriving in style, both do a bit of it, the fortuner imposes with size as a hulk and the outlander seems to provide the image of a suave suited proffesional. Yet neither brands per say are lux brands, but yet both are indeed for the indian market an indicator of having arrived at least among the majority.

The users actually need a softroader and the Outlander does this better. If the concern is about economy and service support then changing the outlander for the captiva would be a good bet as it is diesel, from chevrolet and has service centres located across india, is as good or bad as presenting an image as the other two, similary priced, and feature rich with a proper auto box.

Yep a softroader is recomended and that too neither of the two options, but a Captiva.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

I am all for the Fortuner since it has been a resounding success at almost all countries of its launch. Moreover, for a person in the market for an expedition vehicle, reliability matters a lot.

For an Expedition vehicle i think the Fortuner would be ideal. Minimal electronics, availability of spares and not shy to rough it out. I believe you cannot beat a toyota in reliability, they got rock solid Diesel engines and their experience of building one of the worlds best SUV's is seen in this as well.

Originally Posted by n.dedath

Calling the Fortuner a she??!! Never. It is a "he" and a smart and handsome "he" at that

Compared to the likes of the Range Rover vogue, X5, Q7, Prado and the ML, Its a she and that too a tom boy .

[khoj]

You know I do not like this surrogate advisory business at all. At the outset the inputs one gets are second hand and whether the suggestions handed down are reaching its intended subject verbatim(highly improbable) or are diluted one never knows. People take time out of their busy schedules to read and reply and then what you see is a comment like the one below

Originally Posted by New.Novice

Neither he nor I have any filmsy belives on our knowledge of cars but look, the stalwarts here are unable to come to a concensus.

If you had told us in the opening post that reaching a consensus was the whole objective then someone could have asked the mods to attach a poll to your OP and we would have been done with it in a couple of minutes flat. Why waste every one's time in seeking subjective responses when the whole objective was to get every one to give you the same single answer, which can never be. Every one is wired differently and would have their own opinions etc and that is what is coming to the fore here as always.

Taking the case of your friends themselves, the couple is so apart in their thinking even though they are family so how can you even begin to expect a consensus amongst people who may have never interacted with each other save for this forum. Yes most of us have better than average knowledge regarding all things automotive but then we all process this information differently. Your intent should be to assimilate all of this processed information and then arrive at an informed decision rather than expecting a bunch of Russian dolls nodding away in unison.

I might appear to be rude here but the intent is to be blunt and direct regarding what you should expect on the subject at hand rather than anything else and I hope that my intent has gotten through to you.


Having said the above, I will give you credit for your remark in the OP regarding "free advice" and so here goes.

My pick from the lady's perspective is a Mahindra Scorpio AT.
Sold in large numbers (the Scorpio that is)
Economical to run and maintain
Automatic gear box will allow your friend to set his ride apart and also offer him real time driving convenience.

From the surrogate advise seeker's opinion
Honda CRV
Sold in large numbers (at least till some time back) when compared to other soft roaders.
Your friend prefers train/plane for long trips so all he needs is a softroader i.e CR V
Will allow your friend to have the feeling of having arrived as at most office complexes and star hotels the valet and door keepers have a thing for the H badged set of wheels, definitely more than a Toyota, Mitsu or Nissan and shockingly at times more than a Beemer.

Of course if either of the couple were to have a good look at the Outlanders interiors and its ride quality they would have no issues in putting their money down. You can take a look at a couple of rides that belong to fellow Tbhpians here and please remember that TBHP is not responsible for drool damage to your keyboard.

Note : I am not posting the owners names here. The pictures were taken at the Noida meet in the recent past and are already posted in the forum.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

That is what the Hilux is, a pick up truck. And, the lever shift 4wd, as all of us know is more reliable than an electronic gizmo.
See the Thar threads for reference. The lever shift is what is being offered and in demand as well. For a reliable 4wd vehicle,keep it simple, with minimum electronics is the name of the game.

Oh so the chassis was made for the Hilux and then it was adapted for the Innova/Kijang and the Fortuner? Or otherwise we can say the Hilux is based on a van's chassis.

Well the jap's electronics really dont fail much, so at 20 lacs they should have provided a shift on the fly knob system. If you say its unreliable, the Fortuner also has a drive by wire throttle, and we know what happened in the US.

[nilanjanray]

@ New Novice:

Your friend's usage and wants profile suggest that a softroader will make more sense - the Outlander, or perhaps the Captiva or X1 if that falls within budget). Fortuner has its pluses and minuses. And the pluses don't seem to be important for your friend. Unless he prefers Fortuner just for its exterior looks/presence, he should go for a softroader. In fact, if he has budget for a 2WD CRV, he should also look at that - CRV used to be a hot selling SUV, and his wife's objections will be addressed to some extent.

Edit: saw Khoj's posting after my post came up. As he said, a CRV does make sense (no comments on hotel parking though :-)).
OT: The Outlander looks great from the front, but somewhat insipid from the back. They should have put the wheel at the back for a sexier look.

[AlokSriva]

@khoj - brilliant, succinct, to the point and almost unbiased post. I am amazed at the way you so very successfully play the role of devil's advocate

@new.novice & prospective buyer -
The pros and cons of each of the vehicles you have considered are listed down here along with a few other suggestions coming from members based on their understanding and interpretation of the landscape.

Now, obviously it is your call to decide which way you would wanna go. You have almost thrashed down your requirements, all you need to do is put it on a piece of paper (or excel if you like), and see which vehicle(s) meet them to the T.

Though wrt to X1, there are a couple of things which you need to bear in mind -
1) the ride quality is pretty harsh as reported on various forums; and
2) from your posts, I am inferring that your friend too is a salaried bloke like most of us and is splurging on this particular purchase. Fair enough, though you need to keep in mind that German vehicles are neither cheap to acquire, nor are cheap to maintain. Of course there are maintenance plans, but be prepared to shell out additional money for the same not to mention the fine prints that go in such contracts.

PS - do feel free to correct me if my inference was incorrect and keep us posted on your ultimate decision.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Oh so the chassis was made for the Hilux and then it was adapted for the Innova/Kijang and the Fortuner? Or otherwise we can say the Hilux is based on a van's chassis.

Well the jap's electronics really dont fail much, so at 20 lacs they should have provided a shift on the fly knob system. If you say its unreliable, the Fortuner also has a drive by wire throttle, and we know what happened in the US.

Precisely. It was basically designed for a pick up truck which could be used for other platforms as well (IMV Platform) and hence is tougher and more adaptable than the Outlander.
And, a 4WD transfer case and its associated mechanicals undergo a lot more trying conditions compared to throttle or a light for example.
That is why intercontinental travellers prefer old time Land Rovers and Pajeros till this day to modern vehicles. Keep it simple, reliable and easy to repair.

Anyway, the Fortuner's success in almost all the markets it is launched speaks for itself so let us not go OT, on this thread.

[New.Novice]

Originally Posted by khoj

If you had told us in the opening post that reaching a consensus was the whole objective then someone could have asked the mods to attach a poll to your OP and we would have been done with it in a couple of minutes flat. Why waste every one's time in seeking subjective responses when the whole objective was to get every one to give you the same single answer, which can never be. Every one is wired differently and would have their own opinions etc and that is what is coming to the fore here as always.

@Khoj, I know it could sound like that famous saying which goes "I know it sounds like I'm in denial, but I'm not." but I think either i miscommunicated it or you misunderstood it. If you read my OP, I said that I am looking forward to a discussion here. Only discussion can come up with pointers with which one of the party (either the husband or the wife) would see sense in the ultimate decision which will eventually be taken. The whole objective of saying what I said ,and you quoted, was to bring forward the dillema this couple is in. If all they wanted was an opinion poll without a qualified logic, I agree I didn't have to waste time of so many people here. But yes, as a newbie my lessons learnt and thank you for pointing this out. I will be more careful here onwards.

PS - BTW, the pictures you have posted has done more damage to me than anybody else. Not good not good, no way I can afford a SUV now

[suman]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

And, a 4WD transfer case and its associated mechanicals undergo a lot more trying conditions compared to throttle or a light for example.
That is why intercontinental travellers prefer old time Land Rovers and Pajeros till this day to modern vehicles. Keep it simple, reliable and easy to repair.

Devdath, how many cases have you heard of in recent times where the shift on the fly switch has failed?

We really need to keep moving with the times mate, wouldn't you agree? Even Ford has finally done that & the Endy is finally equipped with shift on the fly. Yes, I know the World War II Jeeps have the manual gear levers & they're the "best" but we do need to move on