[m-hawk]

Hi all this is regarding a Toyota Innova in Delhi. It has done150k on the odo regularly serviced from toyota at respective service intervals its a 2007 model. The issue which has cropped up is rough idling. The rough idling is evident at its peak during cold starts. It goes away after driving for 10-15mins there is no loss of power or any change in fuel consumption pattern so we isolated it to injectors. Toyota confirmed our doubt and scanner shows mechanical fault in injector 1 and they want a whopping 24k which was corrected to 15k later for just one injector on dicussing with them they refused to purge it later after a friendly chat it was decided that we get the car purged from outside.
Now my question to all is how to go about this and please relate similiar experience here. Members from delhi could help me with a garage who could manage this and preferabally in north delhi.
Thanking you in anticipation.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by m-hawk

Hi all this is regarding a Toyota Innova in Delhi. It has done150k on the odo regularly serviced from toyota at respective service intervals its a 2007 model. The issue which has cropped up is rough idling. The rough idling is evident at its peak during cold starts. It goes away after driving for 10-15mins there is no loss of power or any change in fuel consumption pattern so we isolated it to injectors. Toyota confirmed our doubt and scanner shows mechanical fault in injector 1 and they want a whopping 24k which was corrected to 15k later for just one injector on dicussing with them they refused to purge it later after a friendly chat it was decided that we get the car purged from outside.
Now my question to all is how to go about this and please relate similiar experience here. Members from delhi could help me with a garage who could manage this and preferabally in north delhi.
Thanking you in anticipation.

Better would be to take the faulty injector to Bosch injector service centers which will be present in all major cities.Get the injector completely serviced from them .But you have to remove that one injector from a independent garage since TASS will not do it.You can try your luck though! Even after the service if the problem persists then only option would be to replace it with a new one!

[anandpadhye]

What's the problem with the injetor exactly?
It's just clogged? And simply needs to be cleaned?

Did you try a couple of tank fulls on Shell diesel - when I ran a full tank of Shell diesel, I observed a drastic reduction in NVH. However, Shell diesel was @15 rupees more (per liter) than the regular diesel so did not try another refill yet. But I am certain, I saw a positive change. Worth trying...

BTW, even I was surprised when I asked about my Tucson's injectors, Hyundai guys told me it would cost around 4000 to get them cleaned from Bosch service center - whenever a need arises.

I am curious - why is it such a big deal to clean the CRDi injectors?
Time to google...

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by m-hawk

Hi all this is regarding a Toyota Innova in Delhi. It has done150k on the odo regularly serviced from toyota at respective service intervals its a 2007 model. The issue which has cropped up is rough idling. The rough idling is evident at its peak during cold starts. It goes away after driving for 10-15mins there is no loss of power or any change in fuel consumption pattern so we isolated it to injectors. Toyota confirmed our doubt and scanner shows mechanical fault in injector 1 and they want a whopping 24k which was corrected to 15k later for just one injector on dicussing with them they refused to purge it later after a friendly chat it was decided that we get the car purged from outside.
Now my question to all is how to go about this and please relate similiar experience here. Members from delhi could help me with a garage who could manage this and preferabally in north delhi.
Thanking you in anticipation.

The Fuel Injection System on a Toyota Innvova is of Denso make so Bosch Authorised workshops will not be able to service it. This has to be done in a workshops which are well versed with repairs and service of Common Rail Direct Injection systems and have the necessary software and hardware to service and calibrate Denso injectors. Very few people do this in India with proper tools and software and data.

Regarding cost the labour charges should be around 1500. Spares required

1. Nozzle - @Rs4000/-
2. Misc spares - @Rs3500/-

So even if major components are to be changed your each injector should be ready around 10- 11K on exchange basis.

New Injectors will surely drill a hole into your wallet. You can try for Recon Injector as mentioned above at Kashmere Gate market in Delhi.

Please keep me updated

Thanks & regards

Samir

[condor]

Originally Posted by CRDIsamir

So even if major components are to be changed your each injector should be ready around 10- 11K on exchange basis.

@Samir, when doing that, would you suggest any minor cleaning/ servicing work on the other injectors ?

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

What's the problem with the injetor exactly?
It's just clogged? And simply needs to be cleaned?

Did you try a couple of tank fulls on Shell diesel - when I ran a full tank of Shell diesel, I observed a drastic reduction in NVH. However, Shell diesel was @15 rupees more (per liter) than the regular diesel so did not try another refill yet. But I am certain, I saw a positive change. Worth trying...

BTW, even I was surprised when I asked about my Tucson's injectors, Hyundai guys told me it would cost around 4000 to get them cleaned from Bosch service center - whenever a need arises.

I am curious - why is it such a big deal to clean the CRDi injectors?
Time to google...

Yes the CRDI systems are costly to repair. Simply because there are very few fuel injection repairs workshops doing this as this requires highly sophasticated machinery and software which requires huge investment. Secondly the fuel injection manufaturers are reluctant supplying spares for even those who have invested.

Originally Posted by condor

@Samir, when doing that, would you suggest any minor cleaning/ servicing work on the other injectors ?

The injectors are put on a test bench and are tested for different parameters like backleakage, main delivery, idling delivery, pre injection , pilot injection and post injection(if applicable). The most critical of these is the back leakage which is the amount of fuel when under pressure is sent back to the fuel tank. This is due to wear and tear of the injector components and should be minimum. If the amount of backleakage is more then there is difficulty in maintaining the required rail pressure which is the main cause of many problems like starting problem, idling just after start, low pickup etc.

Hence if he backleakage is within the limits as per the test data then just calibrating the injectors should do.

Regards

Samir

[condor]

Originally Posted by CRDIsamir

Hence if he backleakage is within the limits as per the test data then just calibrating the injectors should do.

Thanks, Samir

Actually, I wanted to know if OP (or any one in such a situation) should get other 3 injectors also cleaned or serviced. (when one injector is being serviced). Will it help to service all 4 injectors, or if that is not required.

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by condor

Thanks, Samir

Actually, I wanted to know if OP (or any one in such a situation) should get other 3 injectors also cleaned or serviced. (when one injector is being serviced). Will it help to service all 4 injectors, or if that is not required.

It is recommended to check all the injectors because all the injectors have been used for the same running.

[dadu]

Originally Posted by condor

Thanks, Samir

Actually, I wanted to know if OP (or any one in such a situation) should get other 3 injectors also cleaned or serviced. (when one injector is being serviced). Will it help to service all 4 injectors, or if that is not required.

Condor, I have seen TASS doing a backleak test but not sure if they provide repair services on the injectors. They will test all injectors by hooking on the small marked bottles onto the injectors.

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by dadu

Condor, I have seen TASS doing a backleak test but not sure if they provide repair services on the injectors. They will test all injectors by hooking on the small marked bottles onto the injectors.

Yes Dadu the kit has been provided by Delphi to TASS to check the condition pump and the injectors. The pump and injectors are serviced by the equipment manufacturers and their dealers and not by vehicle manufacturers.

Unfortunately in India the pump manufacturers and not that keen on repairs and are only promoting replacement of the units which is very costly affair.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by CRDIsamir

Yes Dadu the kit has been provided by Delphi to TASS to check the condition pump and the injectors. The pump and injectors are serviced by the equipment manufacturers and their dealers and not by vehicle manufacturers.

Unfortunately in India the pump manufacturers and not that keen on repairs and are only promoting replacement of the units which is very costly affair.

Samir do you have any information about Delphi ? Are they reparining the CRDI injectors in India or not ?

I read from one member on Safari thread that Bosch Service cleaned the Safari ( Delphi) injector is it possible ?

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Samir do you have any information about Delphi ? Are they reparining the CRDI injectors in India or not ?

I read from one member on Safari thread that Bosch Service cleaned the Safari ( Delphi) injector is it possible ?

Yes Delphi CRDI Pumpand Injectors can be repaired. Bosch service centre may nt be able to do it unless they have the necessary software to test and calibrate the pump & injectors.

[headers]

Actually, both Deplhi and Bosch try to convince the customer that the Injector kit cannot be serviced and it is better to replace the same.

I've had a pretty bad experience with my Accent CRDi injectors failing at 82500 kms and all they blame is the quality of fuel. [Until then I was fueling only IOC regular from the same petrol station for more than 10 years]

I 've had the worn injectors measured to understand that the injector holes on the perimeter of the worn injector was way above spec, when compared to the other injector.

This was sending wrong feedback to the ECU and hence the catastrophy!

[CRDIsamir]

Originally Posted by headers

Actually, both Deplhi and Bosch try to convince the customer that the Injector kit cannot be serviced and it is better to replace the same.

I've had a pretty bad experience with my Accent CRDi injectors failing at 82500 kms and all they blame is the quality of fuel. [Until then I was fueling only IOC regular from the same petrol station for more than 10 years]

I 've had the worn injectors measured to understand that the injector holes on the perimeter of the worn injector was way above spec, when compared to the other injector.

This was sending wrong feedback to the ECU and hence the catastrophy!

Thats true this has been a policy of Bosch, Delphi and even the vehicle manufacturers that then are more keen on replacement of the pump and injectors. Bosch & Delphi on their part are not releasing the required spares in the open market for the repairs workshop like ours to repair the systems. They insist the workshops to invest in crores to install the machinery to test and calibrate the pumps and injectors. Even then the supply of spares is a big question mark. This policy is responsible for flourishing of the grey market business.

Its not that the spares are not at all available. They are available in plenty in the open market but are costly and you dont get the warranty cover. Even then it is comparitively cheaper to get the fuel injection pump and the injectors repaired rather then go in for costly replacement.

In your case and mostly in all injectors the main problem is the excess backleakage. Because of this there is difficulty in maintaining the required rail pressure in the Common Rail. You have mentioned the injector holes. This is not possible as the sizes of the holes just dont change at all. The Nozzle ( the shinning tip at the bottom ) needs to be replaced because of the wear and tear of the needle inside it. One more part which needs replacement is the Valve & Stem which is responsible for excess back leakage.

[headers]

Originally Posted by CRDIsamir

In your case and mostly in all injectors the main problem is the excess backleakage. Because of this there is difficulty in maintaining the required rail pressure in the Common Rail. You have mentioned the injector holes. This is not possible as the sizes of the holes just dont change at all. The Nozzle ( the shinning tip at the bottom ) needs to be replaced because of the wear and tear of the needle inside it. One more part which needs replacement is the Valve & Stem which is responsible for excess back leakage.

Dear Sir,

The size of the holes were 70 microns, whereas one hole was almost 230 microns. There were 6 holes around the periphery of the injector.
I sold the car 4 years back and hence need to dig into archive for the injector data with measurement details.

What happenned was lose of rail pressure which made the car emit white smoke!!

Thanks for your input.