[apachelongbow]

For electric cars to sell, they must replace the 'sexy' petrol engined super cars in the buying public's eyes. For that, the electric cars must take part in rallies, Formula One races, 24 hours endurance races, with the best of the petrols and have the ability to outperform and beat the petrols every single time.
Unless you have electrics doing this, there is no way that you can have an enmass switch towards electric transport.
Can today's electric vehicles be as simple to use as refuel within 5 mins at the nearest pump, twist the key, pump the pedal and off we go? No? Unless this sort of convinience is provided, the electric car will remain the quirky toy that it is.
And remember, even electric cars cause global warming. How? Think. Where does your electric power come from? Hydro powered dams? Coal powered thermal power? Nuclear power? Who replaces the vast forests that dams kill? Who cleans coal smoke/carbon from the environment? Its simply switching the pollution from your tailpipe to the stack of chimmneys from your local power plant.
The biggest cause of pollution is not automobiles, as your local environment busybody would like everyone to believe. It is industrial activity which involve mainly mining, ore extraction, chemical plants, surface transportation (ships, trains, planes, trucks), power generation (big cause, since majority of power plants still use oil or coal), refrigiration (think of all the coolers, airconditioning, fridges, chillers) and office blocks.
Its easy to blame the poor motorist, since its easy to add taxes/fuel surcharges to cars and make money.
A good public transport is essential to replace cars on city roads, but not to reduce pollution in the world, its to ease mass transportation and ensure city roads remain clog free.
Regarding environmental busybodies, a good example is the link I provide now. If you see the hypocricy this man and his kind generate, you realise how crying the environmental wolf is good for his business.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...transport.html

[am1m]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Today we are asked to build up enthusiasm for bluetooth connectivity or traction control, if not the alloy wheels and ultra-low profile tyres.

Nicely put sir! I know there are people who are genuinely enthused about these things, but for the majority of us, it's the marketing that makes us want to get enthused about such utterly bland bits on such utterly boring cars.

It's great to see such threads even on an auto-enthusiasts forum! And awesome to see that so many petrol-heads are ready to listen to an opposing point of view about something we hold so dear. I guess that's because most of us have realized how bad the situation has really gotten. You can be the most passionate petrol head, do up and keep your vehicle in the best shape possible, but what's the point of it all when you have to use it in such ridiculous traffic conditions like we have in Bangalore, for example, most of the time?! In such cases, we have no choice but to 'get enthused' about the gibberish that automobile marketing folk dribble out!

The advertising image of steering a car down a breezy and empty mountain road, while a deep blue sea beckons in the horizon may have seduced me into buying the car brand. But the reality is that I spend 90% of my time in crawling traffic trying to avoid getting scratched by that idiot cab driver, with my windows rolled up to escape the heat, dust and smog!

Where does 'the car' go from here indeed! Worth pondering.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

For electric cars to sell, they must replace the 'sexy' petrol engined super cars in the buying public's eyes. For that, the electric cars must take part in rallies, Formula One races, 24 hours endurance races, with the best of the petrols and have the ability to outperform and beat the petrols every single time.
Unless you have electrics doing this, there is no way that you can have an enmass switch towards electric transport.

True, but I think a wholesale transfer to the electric car is unlikely, but I don't se how it cannot become the car of choice for city dwellers, if they have access to a car with good range for long journeys between cities.

The idea that the electric car will solve any problems is bunkum, even though the electric motor is so wonderfully efficient and perfect for stop-start driving. City pollution will be transferred (with power losses) down the electricity wires to the power stations. If these are making power from ocean waves, river currents, sunshine, wind or other 'renewables' then that has to be infinitely preferable to burning coal, oil, gas or other material to make heat to make electricity, if for no other reason than air quality will improve - something which is a huge problem for China.

What people often overlook, it seems to me, is the energy required for the individual to move around. They somehow think an electric car uses less energy. What is needed is more thinking about the longer-term, rather than short-term profits. In the minds of most manufacturers, it is not feasible to make a car which is smaller, uses much less fuel and much less of everything to make as well as lasting longer - it would be financial suicide.

So instead we will continue to build bigger, fatter, heavier, faster, more complex, less long-lived cars until there is barely room on the roads. Where does this race end and who wins? Driving today is seen as a chore, people get themselves into debt over a rapidly-depreciating asset and seem to lose a perspective on what matters in life. Quality, not quantity, is what should count in all aspects of life, not least motoring. Just because a car is cheap and simple doesn't mean it should not be highly enjoyable to drive and a piece of high quality design.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

So instead we will continue to build bigger, fatter, heavier, faster, more complex, less long-lived cars until there is barely room on the roads. Where does this race end and who wins? Driving today is seen as a chore, people get themselves into debt over a rapidly-depreciating asset and seem to lose a perspective on what matters in life. Quality, not quantity, is what should count in all aspects of life, not least motoring. Just because a car is cheap and simple doesn't mean it should not be highly enjoyable to drive and a piece of high quality design.

You see, a car is an extension of a person's personality, somewhat like a horse was earlier. Apart from his house, the next big 'asset' he invests in is his car,so its imperative that it reflects how he perceives his stature and position in the society. A few people understand a car for what it is, a mode of transportation from place A to place B. Most are content with the fact that the darban will give an extra salute or bow if you get down from a BMW compared to an Alto for example.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

You see, a car is an extension of a person's personality, somewhat like a horse was earlier. Apart from his house, the next big 'asset' he invests in is his car,so its imperative that it reflects how he perceives his stature and position in the society. A few people understand a car for what it is, a mode of transportation from place A to place B. Most are content with the fact that the darban will give an extra salute or bow if you get down from a BMW compared to an Alto for example.

So true, although after long enough the situation can arise whereby those with a lot of money (and much sense) prefer not to be associated with the grasping and vulgar nouveau riche who parade around like peacocks looking for a (presumably equally vulgar) mate in their latest bit of bling - and have something more practical which is less of a money pit like an older Land-Rover Defender or Discovery, or an old VW/Audi/Skoda estate car (all commonly perceied as for poorer people). If you are interested in great cars, you would most likely keep something lovely at home for pure enjoyment and have an everyday car for everyday purposes.

Indeed, in Britain, there is a commonly-held notion that men with fast cars who are blinded by the obvious and pass over the subtleties are not terribly well-endowed. Anyway, the fastest vehicles in the country are generally delivery vans, usually painted white (hence 'white van man') and with plenty of scrapes.

I read a great book many years ago called 'Driving Passion', written by two Americans, at least one was a psychologist who suggested that the odd behaviour which occurs only when behind the wheel is partly linked to the fact that for most men, their car is the last vestige of property. After all, if you do own a house, it is the wife's house, of course. Few men own land anymore. Those who do are shown to be less aggressive in a car, apparently. I would recommend the book to anyone interested in driving and motor cars, it was a really enjoyable read.

[Jeroen]

Just came across this little article:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/16/bu...html?hpt=hp_c5

If this trend continues this whole debate has become redundant. The future simply holds no cars.

Interesting to read what the younger generation is up to.

I have three grown up children, 27, 25 and 22. Although they do have drivers licenses, they don't own a car, never have and I don't see them even thinking about cars. By the time I was 27 I had probably owned more than twenty cars.

And it's not even a question of money. At least two of them could easily own a nice little second hand car if they want to. MInd you, when they need a car they take the train over to our place and grap my wife's little Fiesta. But it doesn't happen often.

Jeroen

[vindrider2626]

As per census 2011 only 21% of indian households own two wheelers and 4.7% households own a four wheeler. A dream of a person owning a two wheeler is to buy a four wheeler,and the dream of every four wheeler owner is to buy something more powerful.Almost 90% of our four wheeler owners drive cars with less than 80bhp and if they have an opportunity would definitely go for something more powerful especially the younger generation.So where is the space for cars with 150 kms mileage because you have to sacrifice power for achieving it.If so nano would have been a roaring success.Cars are status symbols still in our country and people would continue to buy 300-500bhp cars even if they drive it never beyond 80km/hr and for that matter where are the roads to drive it all over india?The scenario will change if oil reserves run out in the next 25 years and people will be forced to look upon other sources of fuel which will require cars to be made where utility will be in the front bench rather than power.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Just came across this little article:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/16/bu...html?hpt=hp_c5

If this trend continues this whole debate has become redundant. The future simply holds no cars.

Interesting to read what the younger generation is up to.

Jeroen

That's an interesting article, the comments (as so often) make for good reading. Here are a couple I picked out:

"Cars used to mean freedom. Now they mean red light cameras, radar traps, tolls, parking fees, fuel taxes, mileage taxes, high parts prices and servicing and high insurance premiums. There is a whole financial industry built around car ownership that has turned owning a car into a nightmare. Not owning a car is the new freedom."

"I suggest they [car makers] take their resources and invest in some other business. Even the Chinese and Indians will soon find out that sitting in a 50 mile traffic jam and wasting hours of your time doesn't make sense. Driving a car should be the rare exception and then preferably a small EV. Riding a bike, walking, taking the train or subway should be the norm. Young people get it! The car companies don't. The world has changed and their cheese has been moved."

There will of course still have to be personal transport of some sort - perhaps it will be something with which our only interaction is plugging in a card with our destination on it?

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

"Cars used to mean freedom. Now they mean red light cameras, radar traps, tolls, parking fees, fuel taxes, mileage taxes, high parts prices and servicing and high insurance premiums. There is a whole financial industry built around car ownership that has turned owning a car into a nightmare. Not owning a car is the new freedom."

There will of course still have to be personal transport of some sort - perhaps it will be something with which our only interaction is plugging in a card with our destination on it?

Shades of 'Beam me up Scotty'?

The Dream in me is to blast up the B Roads somewhere in the UK hinterland or on the Isle of Man or just once just once pleaaase...do the Transfargarsan Highway in a Mini Cooper S or possibly an Aston DB9 S. Maybe also one Valkyrie ride along that ' Bridge to nowhere' route in Norway and a re-run of the Lambo up the Dolomites or Italian Alps with Matt Monro's timeless 'On Days Like These'....without the earthmover in the tunnel of course...Before the thin end of the wedge descends upon us and before the end of the world as we know it...

[thoma]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

"Cars used to mean freedom. Now they mean red light cameras, radar traps, tolls, parking fees, fuel taxes, mileage taxes, high parts prices and servicing and high insurance premiums. There is a whole financial industry built around car ownership that has turned owning a car into a nightmare. Not owning a car is the new freedom."

Woah! Exactly my thoughts. Mankind is to soon find out some other means to spend premium money; the era of further luxuriating tin on rubber is over IMO. Exclusivity is the key to the future and roads are not at all.

[prasadee]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I would like a stonking fast car, that looks stunning inside and outside, makes a great sound and has unbelievable road holding whilst still extremely comfortable. If it comes with not to great fuel efficiency just shove in a bigger petrol tank.

Cavemen beat other men and stole their women - society made laws to prevent it. My rather philosophical view is that there is no reason for a society/technology to allow one person to speed over the others or put others in danger. Auto drive cars and inter auto communication protocols for allowing variable max speeds based on the number of cars on the freeway are certainly coming in the near future. There is no reason for humans to waste time driving to work. Future will have boxes that look like mini living rooms, or home offices where these connected boxes can figure out the best way to get from point A to B in a super efficient and safe way without human intervention. No need for front/back windows, you will only see another box. The beauty, price variation, and customization is all on the inside of the box - a bubble bath while sipping on fine wine - while reading news on my big screen display on the way back from work is possible in my box

Driving fast cars for fun certainly needs to move to a track, as a sport, or perhaps to a 3D video game, where we can live our fantasies - do all we want without any consequences. Considering the eco consequence of building new tracks and roads, virtual tracks are the best. We have occupied too much of planet earth, we should plan on letting nature reclaim some of it back.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by prasadee

Cavemen beat other men and stole their women - society made laws to prevent it. My rather philosophical view is that there is no reason for a society/technology to allow one person to speed over the others or put others in danger. Auto drive cars and inter auto communication protocols for allowing variable max speeds based on the number of cars on the freeway are certainly coming in the near future. There is no reason for humans to waste time driving to work. Future will have boxes that look like mini living rooms, or home offices where these connected boxes can figure out the best way to get from point A to B in a super efficient and safe way without human intervention. No need for front/back windows, you will only see another box. The beauty, price variation, and customization is all on the inside of the box - a bubble bath while sipping on fine wine - while reading news on my big screen display on the way back from work is possible in my box

Driving fast cars for fun certainly needs to move to a track, as a sport, or perhaps to a 3D video game, where we can live our fantasies - do all we want without any consequences. Considering the eco consequence of building new tracks and roads, virtual tracks are the best. We have occupied too much of planet earth, we should plan on letting nature reclaim some of it back.

Sounds incredibly boring. I like to live my fantasies in real life thank you very much.

Jeroen

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sounds incredibly boring. I like to live my fantasies in real life thank you very much.

Jeroen

I'm with you there, but we are products of the 20th Century. Younger people are already living their lives out online, no matter how sad or unhealthy I may think it is! There is little more satisfying, to me, than taking a sweet-handling car with a flat four or flat six up a long mountain pass early on a Spring morning. Then doing it again, having tweaked the engine and suspension. But there again, I miss the smell of leaded petrol.

[RajaTaurus]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

For electric cars to sell, they must replace the 'sexy' petrol engined super cars in the buying public's eyes. For that, the electric cars must take part in rallies, Formula One races, 24 hours endurance races, with the best of the petrols and have the ability to outperform and beat the petrols every single time.
Unless you have electrics doing this, there is no way that you can have an enmass switch towards electric transport.
[/url]

If we were all wondering what Mitsutubishi has been up to these years, this is what they were doing:
All-New MiEV Evolution II All-Electric Racecar. Please see the following link:
http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/j..._fb_ppihc_0001
I think it wouldn't be too long before races become all-electric.

[prasadee]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

I'm with you there, but we are products of the 20th Century. Younger people are already living their lives out online, no matter how sad or unhealthy I may think it is! There is little more satisfying, to me, than taking a sweet-handling car with a flat four or flat six up a long mountain pass early on a Spring morning. Then doing it again, having tweaked the engine and suspension. But there again, I miss the smell of leaded petrol.

There probably were people who missed the personal connection they had with their horse when the first automobile came along . Just imagine having auto drive lanes where the coordinated speed controlled by machines is twice that of the manual driving lane, it would be a similar difference that exists between a horse and an automobile. We still ride and race horses, we just don't ride our horses to work.
Humans will all get affluent enough to afford safe reliable personal transport. There simply isn't room on our planet and roads for everyone to have today's cars. Human reflexes and vision (focus area) is very very limiting, but humans are over confident about the level of control they have. It makes for a lethal combination.