[gopa99]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Seeing that you are involved in lubrication research, would you have any list of UOA labs in this country who would perform UOA for individuals on a small-scale basis?
.

SS, sure I will help you on this. There is a UOA lab based out of Jamshedpur itself established by the Late C Mishra, a renowned Oil Expert and Ex head of R&D Tata Steel.
Let me check with my contacts and give the detail on the thread.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by gopa99

...UOA lab...

...and a list of similar labs in/near metros too, if possible.

[me_sid]

Originally Posted by mints21

The best learning was to have a cool and calm approach in such situations. In spite of being on a strong platform like Team -Bhp you chose a balanced write up rather than bad mouth the manufacturer, criticising everyone out of frustration and so on. I appreciate this gesture of yours and love the way you handled the situation.

Hi Mints,

There lies the point, keep a cool head but be assertive, we don't have pay from our pocket to talk nicely with people. Right? Thanks once again.

UPDATE:

First and foremost, am sorry for the delay in updating, because of my professional engagements. Coming Back, the request for engine replacement was approved on Saturday itself with the dealer placing the request, however what I came to know was that their online system had a glitch till Tuesday. The engine was made available in the dealers premise on Wednesday. Yesterday it was fitted in the car. I went there just to have a look, how things are proceeding. I was being told that the FIP ( Fuel Injection Pump) was also being changed as its part of the engine assembly. (Can someone throw light on this). Arjab Thanks for your inputs. The customer responsible from M& Mr. Sandip Chakraborty was personally present to oversee the "Heart Transplant" ( a gesture much appreciated). Coming back to the diagnosis, its not yet confirmed officially. However I have fairly decent idea on the root cause, now let me get verified before I write it out here. Frankly, I don't want to risk that in front of the stalwarts like Shamindrada, Sutriptada, and others. Today they are going to fire up the engine, and tomorrow, we plan to take it for test drive. Hopefully I will have him home tomorrow. It was a tad traumatic, but I learnt quite a few things, technically as well as mentally. I will update again tomorrow, once I am through with the test drive. Couple of pointers. The guys did use a torque wrench. However the engine bench that's used to maneuver the engine, was having a chain missing ( this chain is used to leash the engine to the bench, and stop it from wobbling or falling down). And yes the guy was wearing a helmet ( so safety audit passed) however they might have a NC because of the missing chain

Now the pictures :

[saket77]

Originally Posted by me_sid

Coming Back, the request for engine replacement was approved on Saturday itself with the dealer placing the request, however what I came to know was that their online system had a glitch till Tuesday. The engine was made available in the dealers premise on Wednesday. Yesterday it was fitted in the car.

Excellent news That is what is called good after sales service. I am very glad looking at the way M&M dealt with the situation. This is what a long term vision means and this is what attracts future customers as well. Surely this gesture builds a lot of confidence in the company.
Do let us know how things fared at the test drive. Wishing you all luck and a hassle free ownership in future!

Regards,
Saket

[driving_smartly]

Originally Posted by me_sid

UPDATE:

The engine was made available in the dealers premise on Wednesday. Yesterday it was fitted in the car. :

@ me_sid,

Very good initiative from M&M for replacing the engine, with this kind of Service they would certainly attract more potential customers .

What about the older engine does it stay back at dealership or goes back to M&M to find out the root cause for failure ?

What about ODO will it remain same or will be calibrated to Zero and also will there be any run-in mechanism followed since the engine is new ?

[me_sid]

Originally Posted by driving_smartly

@ me_sid,

Very good initiative from M&M for replacing the engine, with this kind of Service they would certainly attract more potential customers .

What about the older engine does it stay back at dealership or goes back to M&M to find out the root cause for failure ?

What about ODO will it remain same or will be calibrated to Zero and also will there be any run-in mechanism followed since the engine is new ?

@driving_smartly : ODO, frankly, haven't asked. But running in definitely yes. The engine, I think would go back to M&M eventually but in my opinion RCA is already done, my friend.

[gopa99]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

...and a list of similar labs in/near metros too, if possible.

Dear SS, do find the UOA lab , contact person Mr Uday veer, VAS Tribology Solutions, jamshedpur 9431133385.
I talked to him on phone yesterday and told about posting his number on website.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

...and a list of similar labs in/near metros too, if possible.

Cummins used to do it. Don't know where they got it done.
Also their service engineers in a bid to hardsell Valvoline used to go about with test strips to check TAN/ TBN. Wouldn't mind having those test strips also!

Regards
Sutripta

[MaxTorque]

Originally Posted by driving_smartly

What about the older engine does it stay back at dealership or goes back to M&M to find out the root cause

Normally the parts like this will be transported to the manufacturer end. Then a team will be assigned to analyse the root cause of the problem. In this way they can take necessary actions to prevent such failures.

[msk016]

First of all me_sid, do accept my condolences for your old engine and also my heartiest congratulations for the new one.
i must say that this unfortunate situation has been handled very well by all parties involved including the ASC.

A few observations from my side:

In cases like this, the lub oil and the oil filter serve like a black box. I read somewhere in this thread about lub oil analysis. That is absolutely the right thing to do. Lub oil normally should go through elemental spectrographic analysis, which will give us a detailed break up of the level and type of contaminants in the oil. The level of Various metals in the oil will give us a good idea about which particular component has seen the maximum wear. For eg, metals like Sn, Pb, Al, Zn are primary components of Journal bearings and Chromium is mostly used for running surfaces which need higher surface finish and self lubricating properties. We do this on a quarterly basis and gives us a good track about the condition of the equipment.

Also the base number, density, TAN, water content, etc of the used oil and compared with new oil should give us a good idea about the quality of oil at the time of failure.

The elemental analysis should also give us a good idea about any undue wear in the lub oil pump.
The purpose of the above rant is to try and see if you can get any info from M&M R&D about their findings in this regard.
Now that the damage is fixed, my next immediate concern is How to avoid reoccurrence of the same god forsaken break down again.

In my opinion, every engine and even pumps have some sort of protection against dry running. Have you asked the ASC guys to find out, how did this failure occur without triggering the oil pressure switch? Normally when i start my XUV, i just let it idle till the low oil pressure indication is completely gone from the instrument panel. My concern here is, if your ECU/engine protection system is some how not registering low oil pressure in the system.

And yes please absolutely insist on getting your entire turbo assembly also replaced with a brand new one. With the thread bare tolerances that we have today on these engines, we would not be able to positively identify any long term damages to these equipment through NDE methods.

Note from Support - Your post has been split into paragraphs to improve readability. Please preview your post before submitting it.

[dip27in]

Congratulations for bringing her back so fast and peacefully on road. M&M has done a great job in the process.

Cheers!

[shrk_18]

Guys,

Some bad news. I own a XUV 500 W8 for the past 18 months, having done about 10,600km and I believe I may have the same problem.

A month or so back I left my vehicle for servicing and I had reported to them about the problem that the "Oil Pressure Light" would come on and would stay on. While the light was on I could hear a tapping noise as though someone is knocking metal against metal. I shut the engine immediately and when I restarted it, it was gone. It never occurred again.

But the problem came back last Thursday and I promptly landed at the ASC on Saturday morning as I had a host of other issues to address. But apparently this time the diagnosis looks like its proper / complete. I was out over the weekend and on Monday I got a call that they are suspecting Oil pump failure and needed to take the engine out to analyse further. I gave them the go ahead over phone as I was away from the town.

Today, I went to the service centre late afternoon and although I could not meet the technical guy in person what I heard was a series of terms and problems that they seem to have diagnosed. They said the timing case / tensioner ( Apologies I have no idea as I can't understand these terms), oil pump need to replaced as the Oil Pump is faulty and malfunctioning. They also made a statement that some "bearings are scored just a little" (later they told me this means some minor scratches) on the "bearnings" (I need to know which exact bearings when I get there tomorrow and talk to the technical guy there) and they need to replaced.

They said they are going to replace these parts and if I am not satisfied go for an engine replacement. I am worried and confused on what to do here, whether to push for an engine replacement or not. I am not a automobile guy and don't understand the technicalities of the whole thing.

I will update more details tomorrow when I talk to the technical person there. Any pointers / help would be appreciated

[nitin.rai]

Mods - you should consider renaming the thread as M&M have replaced the engine.
Am no fan of M&M or Tata quality fan but given their service responsiveness, I would put my money on them rather a Europian.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by msk016

In cases like this, the lub oil and the oil filter serve like a black box. I read somewhere in this thread about lub oil analysis. That is absolutely the right thing to do. Lub oil normally should go through elemental spectrographic analysis, which will give us a detailed break up of the level and type of contaminants in the oil. The level of Various metals in the oil will give us a good idea about which particular component has seen the maximum wear. For eg, metals like Sn, Pb, Al, Zn are primary components of Journal bearings and Chromium is mostly used for running surfaces which need higher surface finish and self lubricating properties. We do this on a quarterly basis and gives us a good track about the condition of the equipment.

Also the base number, density, TAN, water content, etc of the used oil and compared with new oil should give us a good idea about the quality of oil at the time of failure.

The elemental analysis should also give us a good idea about any undue wear in the lub oil pump.



And yes please absolutely insist on getting your entire turbo assembly also replaced with a brand new one. With the thread bare tolerances that we have today on these engines, we would not be able to positively identify any long term damages to these equipment through NDE methods.

Lub oil analysis might give a good idea on wear and tear of components when an engine is still running. Im not sure what it will tell you after such a massive break down as we have here. You can just look at the individual components and get a good idea. I have no idea what an oil analysis would tell about the oil pump itself. Not sure you would be able to analyse any particular wear of the oil pump itself. Mind you that wear could also be on the external parts of the pump in which case the oil wont show anythign.

As you say turbo's have very narrow tolerances. The smallest of mishaps will result in a catastrophic failure. So in y opinion if a turbo rins fine, there is nothing to worry about. At least from a bearing and or lubrication point of view. Its all or nothing. Either it works fine or it doesn't. Not much in between.

Jeroen

[mycarhasablower]

Originally Posted by shrk_18

Guys,

Some bad news. I own a XUV 500 W8 for the past 18 months, having done about 10,600km and I believe I may have the same problem.

A month or so back I left my vehicle for servicing and I had reported to them about the problem that the "Oil Pressure Light" would come on and would stay on. While the light was on I could hear a tapping noise as though someone is knocking metal against metal. I shut the engine immediately and when I restarted it, it was gone. It never occurred again.

But the problem came back last Thursday and I promptly landed at the ASC on Saturday morning as I had a host of other issues to address. But apparently this time the diagnosis looks like its proper / complete. I was out over the weekend and on Monday I got a call that they are suspecting Oil pump failure and needed to take the engine out to analyse further. I gave them the go ahead over phone as I was away from the town.

Today, I went to the service centre late afternoon and although I could not meet the technical guy in person what I heard was a series of terms and problems that they seem to have diagnosed. They said the timing case / tensioner ( Apologies I have no idea as I can't understand these terms), oil pump need to replaced as the Oil Pump is faulty and malfunctioning. They also made a statement that some "bearings are scored just a little" (later they told me this means some minor scratches) on the "bearnings" (I need to know which exact bearings when I get there tomorrow and talk to the technical guy there) and they need to replaced.

They said they are going to replace these parts and if I am not satisfied go for an engine replacement. I am worried and confused on what to do here, whether to push for an engine replacement or not. I am not a automobile guy and don't understand the technicalities of the whole thing.

I will update more details tomorrow when I talk to the technical person there. Any pointers / help would be appreciated

since you were prompt in turning off your engine when oil pressure was low, the damamge will be minimal. the scoured bearings if replaced , the engine should be fine

in the Mhawk,the oil pump is built into the timing chain cover. i think this feature is rare or maybe even unique.

oil pressures can also drop due to excessive tollerances in bearings as i learnt from my ol' maruti 800 thats clocked 2lakh kms. But since the bearings are being replaced , therefore that possibility is also taken care of.

regarding the engine failure on the xuv that is the subject of this thread , in my opinion it wasnt a pump failure , but more like something say iron filing or impurity choking up a section of the oil gallery. if oil pump failure had happened then the bores for bearings of both cams wouldve been damaged.

Now since the car had already done 10000 kms, its unlikely this impurity was left behind during manufacturing. possibly during service. But if that is what happened, i would just call it bad luck, cuz mistakes happen.

Enjoy your new engine though, you are lucky it was a mahindra