[greenhorn]

I just had an interesting thought - Several lubricant oil makers come up with Tata motors branded or endorsed engine oils (make sure you buy a passenger vehicle oil , not a truck one to give them any potential excuses).

Examples
https://www.amazon.in/Tata-Autocom-E.../dp/B01M7SPBAE
https://www.tatamotors.com/press/pet...s-genuine-oil/
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail...219656491.html
https://www.amazon.in/dp/B00WMDSVBI/...c-f0421857aaf5
http://www.autocarpro.in/news-nation...-tata-cvs-8085

Buy one from an authorized outlet, and then escalate to the lube manufacturer that your local tata dealership will not allow you to use their tata co branded oil, and keep the tata CS manager in copy.

It should be an interesting conversation

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm going to side with the manufacturers here.

So many today provide bumper-to-bumper warranties of up to 7 years today. Now, if you use an oil that doesn't meet the required specifications or is adulterated or is FAKE, and the engine suffers serious damage, it's going to be one messy situation.



Fake tyres don't damage a car. Adulterated engine oil can. A tyre of a different load or speed rating won't damage a car, but an engine oil of a different specification can.

This is the same Tata Motors which ended up filling the wrong (and inferior) grade of engine oil not once, but TWICE in Jkdas' Safari. (Tata Safari 2.2L at 1.5 lakh kms. Reclaiming continues without extended warranty UPDATE: Now Sold !)

[blacklist]

Originally Posted by NaXal

Help me understand the basics

@ Naxal, you are certainly right. Automobile company can't push customer to purchase the parts from their Service Center. As per my experience with VW and Mahindra, customer can purchase its own part/engine oil and take it to authorized service center to get it replaced by them. In this case they are liable to charge only for labour and taxes.

I have been doing in VW and Mahindra. I was anticipating them refuting to my request, but I was shocked to see they are not willing to reply even on my mails.

Originally Posted by greenhorn

In an ideal world, TML should be resolving issues proactively instead of reactively, but that's the way things are!

Seem this is the only option left. But I wanted to close this amicably with TM.

Originally Posted by NaXal

I beg to differ.

@Naxal has correctly pointed out. The debate here is not upon price of oil or number of km for service. My point is about option to choose my preferred oil to which company has claimed that warranty will be voided.

Just to share, the oil I had mentioned; I have been using in Mahindra-Scorpio and VW-Polo since years and nothing has gone wrong. Moreover both company's never denied me of using my own oil.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I am with you on the part where they have not responded to you properly despite many reminders and followup from your side. Have you tried twitter?

@kosfactor, I haven't tried twitter yet. but their attitude may force customer to take it upto that level.

Just to share a thought; automobile companies also switch their vendor for oil basis who give them the best commercial to gain from the margins. Of-course the vendor has to maintain/provide the oil as per recommended standard only but it may one today and some other after couple of years.

Originally Posted by Zappo

So there is no way Tata can say you need to buy the oil only from them to keep your warranty intact. They have in fact been forced now to even sell their proprietary car spares as OTC sale, outside of their service station.

@Zappo, you are indeed right and basis the same I had raised my query to TML.

But its a surprise that even post marking Mr. Mayank P (President, PVBU) no one bothered to close it on mail or took onus to call for clsoure. Its gonna be almost 2 month now since my first request.

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Hi blacklist

Hey friend, two points I will highlight here.

1. In my mail to TML i have no where specified which oil i will use. I just asked if I can use my own oil or not, which is of recommended grade, standard and quality. And more on this point itself they started refuting

2. I am using same engine oil in Scorpio and Polo since more than 4 years. I believe Mahindra engine would be at par only with Tata. So certainly TATA engine would support if unless their engine made quality is poorer than Industry standard.

[rambo1o1]

I had a slightly different incident with my new petrol swift.
When I had asked for an oil change at the 5k km service. The Service centre poured 5w30 instead of the recommended 0w20. I raised this with my service advisor who told me that they didn't have stock of 0w20 and since they themselves put the non specific oil, they would take care of any warranty claims should an issue arise. I was not entirely satisfied but I let it go as this service centre was also liberal with their warranty policy with my old Ciaz and I had build a good rapport with them.
Anyways, I found after using the 5w30 oil that my mileage reduced a bit, but the engine was smooth. I decided to procure MGO(Mobil) 0w20 oil from outside and give it to Maruti for my next 10k km service. The service advisor didn't object. After the oil change, my mileage has gone back up

In my case the service centre themselves are using a different spec oil than what is recommended. I will have to change this service centre but I would miss their liberal warranty policy plus their friendly staff.
If there are any issues in the future and Maruti raises an objection, I'm gonna have to show Maruti the first oil change bill wherein they have mentioned 5w30 that the authorised service had poured themselves. But to be safe I would have to get the service centre to put the recommended oil since they don't mention what oil is put in the bill, just "customer supplied oil" even if I bring MGO branded oil.

I also had an issue with Ford,who would not accommodate any oil besides what they supply during the warranty period. However after the warranty expired they would accept any oil you gave them.

[Kosfactor]

Is it an acceptable behavior for Tata to refuse using genuine spares that are sourced from outside their dealership?

(Yes, our country has a lot of spurious spares etc etc, but lets consider an ideal situation here, a genuine spare with a valid invoice)

Originally Posted by blacklist

@kosfactor, i havn't tried twitter yet. but their attitude may force customer to take it upto that level.

Just to share a thought; automobile companies also switch their vendor for oil basis who give them the best commercial to gain from the margins. Of-course the vendor has to maintain/provide the oil as per recommended standard only but it may one today and some other after couple of years.

I recommend you do two things :

1. Install their App, raise a complaint through it - My experience is that request through the app takes priority.
2. Twitter - By far very effective, if there is a Direct message option, use that first and then go for the public post .

I am very much with you that Tata must provide you with their feedback on whether similar grade from a different manufacturer can be used or not. If they insist that only their recommended brand can be used, ask them if you can purchase the same brand from outside with a valid bill and provide to the service center guys.

Originally Posted by hserus

They've established that a mineral 15w40 CI4+ grade oil is the best for their engine. And then worked out commercial / bulk purchase deals with 4 oil manufacturers that allow them to buy in bulk quantities (several 25 litre drums to a dealership) and resell it at a huge profit. A generic CI4+ oil is basically a generic CI4+ oil, with much the same range of TBN, NOACK etc levels. The only difference between brands is going to be proprietary additives packages for the more expensive oils.

This is a possibility.

Considering the vehicle is 20L plus, here is something to think about.

What if Mr.Red ( or Blacklist) buys the same Petronas oil from concorde`s part supplier and provide it to the service center guys? So no more profit there then at least for the dealer.

We do not know what sort of metal alloys are involved and where in this engine and what protects their design best. What if normal oils cause more build up of sludge in a particular area of the engine, what if they are using this oil additive to make up for an engine design compromise or an emissions related parameter.

Since each oil manufacturer and additive maker is spending a lot of money on R&D to ensure their product is better than other, I have no doubt that the same grade (Nominal) from different manufacturer can be different unless confirmed by the car manufacturer to be equivalent.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by blacklist

Just to share, the oil I had mentioned; I have been using in Mahindra-Scorpio and VW-Polo since years and nothing has gone wrong. Moreover both company's never denied me of using my own oil.

Scorpio, like the Hexa, requires a minimum of API CH4 15w40 HDEO (heavy duty engine oil)

Polo requires VW 504 00 (petrol) or 507 00 (diesel) spec suited for their engine, particularly designed with European emissions norms in mind and these are HTHS oils - https://www.lubrizoladditives360.com...f-engine-oils/

Most engine oils I've found in India conform to the older VW specs - even that time honored old brand Shell Helix Ultra. The only non OEM oil in India that fits the new VW spec is Mobil 1 ESP (Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 API SM/SN Fully Synthetic Motor Oil for Cars (4 L) https://www.amazon.in/dp/B00SFNNTSE/..._ecseCb0ZKMM7X)

I would certainly not advise your using the same engine oil in both vehicles.

Any comment I have made in this thread about using your own engine oils in or out of your car's warranty period assumes you've researched enough to conclude that the oil you prefer conforms to the standard specified in the OEM recommendation.

If you fill a different brand of oil and due to unawareness end up filling a wrong grade and doing some damage to your engine, you will get little or no warranty support from official service channels.

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by blacklist

I would like to take you all through my pathetic experience with TML over their miss-communication and poor customer care support.

I had purchased Tata Hexa this year which is due for its 3rd service in couple of months. I inquired about using my own preferred synthetic oil (Mobil Delvac 1 or Voltronic C+) , which is of TML recommended standard, grade and quality.

The best you can do is to tell them to use EXXON Mobil Super Diesel 15W-40 which is rated at CI-4+. If they don't have stock they can procure it for you. It is the highest rated among recommended oils, as well as one among your choices.

Some of the CH4 and CJ4 rated diesel engine oils degrade when used with diesel not rated to BS VI standards.
Lastly though manufacturers do not market these oils here they are available online, and if you do end up with duplicate oil you will be left with no support.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

However, this will make sense if the drain interval is 15K which would translate into 5K OEM oil and 10K own synthetic oil. If it is 10K drain interval then 5K kms OEM and 5K kms your choice Mineral oil will do.

Drain interval is 20,000km like most 2 Lit and above engines. I have tested used oils in a lab, and even after running 20k they still have more than enough alkalinity. Detergent and dispersant level is more than 50% of that in new oil.
Tata tests these oils for 50,000km before recommending 20,000 to us.



Rahul

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

The best you can do is to tell them to use EXXON Mobil Super Diesel 15W-40 which is rated at CI-4+. If they don't have stock they can procure it for you. It is the highest rated among recommended oils, as well as one among your choices.

They're all rated at CI4+ 15w40 so not sure what you're saying here about highest rated engine oil among the recommended ones.

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by hserus

They're all rated at CI4+ 15w40 so not sure what you're saying here about highest rated engine oil among the recommended ones.

Oils are rated for different properties. 15W-40 is only the viscosity.
CI4+ shows you its detergent dispersent, V I improver and a lot more. The actual tech spec of the oil is available for those who can read it, and my father who has retired from the oil industry is considerably knowledgeable about this.
Each of the necessary properties has a permissible range, and mobil is usually close to the maximum in this range.


Rahul

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

Oils are rated for different properties. 15W-40 is only the viscosity.
CI4+ shows you its detergent dispersent, V I improver and a lot more. The actual tech spec of the oil is available for those who can read it, and my father who has retired from the oil industry is considerably knowledgeable about this.
Each of the necessary properties has a permissible range, and mobil is usually close to the maximum in this range.

Rahul

Correct. Mineral contents, tbn and noack etc. These appear fairly close to each other at least for these oils. Did you and your father get to look at all their data sheets?

[Rahul Rao]

@hserus.
He studies whatever new comes into his field, and he had told me to forget warranty and stop using the recommended Castrol VW co branded oil in Polo.
For those cars in warranty he says Mobil if recommended, for upgraded engines they can try Amsol, and those who are using semi synth due to budget reasons can upgrade to a less known Korean brand Zic. Who sells the cheapest Synthetic at a rate only marginally over semi Synth.


Rahul

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

@hserus.
He studies whatever new comes into his field, and he had told me to forget warranty and stop using the recommended Castrol VW co branded oil in Polo.
For those cars in warranty he says Mobil if recommended, for upgraded engines they can try Amsol, and those who are using semi synth due to budget reasons can upgrade to a less known Korean brand Zic. Who sells the cheapest Synthetic at a rate only marginally over semi Synth.
Rahul

Zic is very good indeed - 100% PAO - but it has the older VW 502 and 505 specs. https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B01...k_ql_qh_dp_hza

The same with Amsoil - https://www.amazon.in/AMSOIL-Europea...dp/B01DETS2WQ/ VW 502 and 505 and ACEA A3/B4

What a VW needs (VW 504 and 507) is not currently available in India - their 5w30 European Car Formula with ESP, and is ACEA C3. https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...tic-motor-oil/

Have your dad look at Mobil 1 ESP - currently the only oil available in the open market in India that supports these current VW standards and ACEA C2/C3. https://www.amazon.in/Mobil-5W-30-Fu...dp/B00SFNNTSE/

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by hserus

Have your dad look at Mobil 1 ESP - currently the only oil available in the open market in India that supports these current VW standards and ACEA C2/C3. https://www.amazon.in/Mobil-5W-30-Fu...dp/B00SFNNTSE/

It is only CF where as diesels need CI4. Always go for oils that engine manufacturers have tested and recommended on cars and not what oil companies have tested, and car makers are yet to recommend. These are usually newer oils and will improve over time before car manufacturers include them in their manual.


Note if you try online purchase of EXXON Mobil Super Diesel 15W-40 you will EXXON Mobil Super 1000 Diesel 15W-40. Now the one without the 1000 is marketed by in India with some additive change to sustain blowby sulfur contamination due to bad diesel.
So it corresponds to CI4+ where as the private import you get online will be rated CG4, and will give you better feel when new but deteriorate faster. It is also not a synthetic base.

So stick to the OMC marketed oils and not private online imports.

Rahul

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

It is only CF where as diesels need CI4 or higher. Always go for oils that engine manufacturers have tested and recommended on cars and not what oil companies have tested, and car makers are yet to recommend. These are usually newer oils and will improve over time before car manufacturers include them in their manual.
Rahul

Look at the ACEA rating for European cars, compared to the API ones.

ps : Both Mobil and the Amsoil 5w30 ESP oils have manufacturer approvals for VW 504 / 507.

The key is that - as you can see from the ACEA C ratings, VW expects low to mid SAPS (Sulphated Ash Phosphorus Sulphur) numbers for supported engine oils, and also expects HT/HS (high temperature / high shear viscosity)