[volkman10]

Approx. Price of BSVI diesel obtained from IOC- Rohtak in March is as below:

[sgiitk]

@SS-Traveller; I face similar issues with BSIII/IV. I delayed my purchase of a Civic do that. As it happened as Honda made the reversing sensors standard the landed price was lower.

[sukarsan]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

.

Obviously, someone figured out that providing BSVI fuels from 1/4/2020 to all pumps in India would be an impossibility

What makes you this so? Since Supreme court's brutal decision to stop sales of BS3 after implementation of BS4, no one is taking a chance . From TeamBHP posts I am getting the opposite feeling.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

.

Nowhere in the paper you linked to does it say that BSIV fuels will do fine in BSVI engines and after-treatment devices. The comparison in the paper has been between BSVI and Euro-6 fuels. To quote from the paper..

To elaborate my comment, I have(not so clearly) stated that high Sulphur does impact the after treatment system. When I say that emission standards are independent of the fuel, I meant the certification test ( which takes a few hours of test in a lab environment). Sulphur is expected to settle on the after treatment system on road and reduces their efficacy. In the certification test if we use BSIV fuel on a BSVI vehicle, only PM will slightly go up engine out which shouldn't be a big deal in the presence of a DPF.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

The major change in BS VI Diesel is reduction of sulfur from 50 ppm to 10 ppm. Everything else is the same. Now what will the additional sulfur in the diesel do if it is used in BS VI engine, it will destroy the CK4 rated oil that we are using with the BS VI engines.
...
Coming to DPF. The DPF needs to regenerate...

True. More importantly, the additional sulphur in petrol / diesel poisons the catalytic converter (these are newer generation 3WCC devices, more expensive and effective than what is already in use for BS-IV vehicles).

Originally Posted by NiInJa

...government asking manufacturers to make engines backward compatible : Running on both BS4 and BS6 fuels.

This is the main bone of contention. There is no way, long-term, that a BSVI vehicle will continue to produce lower emissions when BSIV fuel (or, for that matter, adulterated BSVI fuel) is being used. And if certain undisclosable sources in the oil industry are to be believed, there is no way every single pump in India will switch to BS-VI fuels from Day 1.

Originally Posted by sukarsan

What makes you this so? Since Supreme court's brutal decision to stop sales of BS3 after implementation of BS4, no one is taking a chance . From TeamBHP posts I am getting the opposite feeling.

The Supreme Court order to change from BS-III to BS-IV pan-India only happened in 2017, while Delhi-NCR went BS-IV on 1/4/2010. In the meanwhile, for those 7 years, BS-IV vehicles ran on BS-III fuels every time they travelled out of the NCR area. No guesses about what happened to the emission control systems, especially the catcon, of these vehicles, over these years. BS-VI running on BS-IV fuels will tread the same path.

Show me one published research paper about testing the emissions of BS-IV vehicles registered in/after April 2010 after they ran for a few years on BS-III fuels. No one is bothered about long-term emissions control, and BS-VI norms and engines are truly BS if BS-IV fuels are used to run them

Originally Posted by sukarsan

To elaborate my comment, I have(not so clearly) stated that high Sulphur does impact the after treatment system. When I say that emission standards are independent of the fuel, I meant the certification test ( which takes a few hours of test in a lab environment). Sulphur is expected to settle on the after treatment system on road and reduces their efficacy. In the certification test if we use BSIV fuel on a BSVI vehicle, only PM will slightly go up engine out which shouldn't be a big deal in the presence of a DPF.

So, what you are saying is, when testing a brand-new BS-VI vehicle running on BS-IV fuel for certification purposes, there may be a slight but acceptable discrepancy in the PM / NOx / PAH, and that is fine; the long-term implications in terms of rising tailpipe pollutant levels don't matter, and we as owners / users / breathers (of such pollutants) should be happy about it? - because the government labelled my car as BS-VI?

Edit: For those not already in the know about the technical differences between BS-IV and BS-VI, it might be worth your while to read this post.

[sgiitk]

@SS-Traveller; The main advantage is to make sure that the engine is still current after 1 April. If it is discontinued then maintenance can become an issue after 1 April.

So I will either wait out, or at least make sure the engine will be there.

[headers]

I think BS6 will happen and the upgraded fuel will be available by 01.01.2020.

Alternatively, EVs are being given a BIG PUSH by the Ministry to the auto industry

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by headers

I think BS6 will happen and the upgraded fuel will be available by 01.01.2020.

So do we... hopefully. But somehow, I don't believe a pan-India rollout of BS-VI fuels will happen so quickly.

Originally Posted by headers

Alternatively, EVs are being given a BIG PUSH by the Ministry to the auto industry

The operative word is PUSH. Pushed away. Read the news. Pushed beyond affordability - read this.

[tsk1979]

Here is whats going to happen. With our traffic and poor qualify fuel, DPF clogging will be a popular issue.
So people will buy the car, and do DPF "DELETE".

Pollution check centers will put a pipe in exhaust, and then a dot matrix printer will make lot of noise and print some garbage, and life will go on.

[sparky@home]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Pollution check centers will put a pipe in exhaust, and then a dot matrix printer will make lot of noise and print some garbage, and life will go on.

In my last “PUC” test, that chap was telling me that the test was going online in couple of months, here in kerala, which would mean that, the check would be done by some govt. computer, and that if one fails, one fails, no adjustment can be done. I am not aware if the same has been implemented. Wonder if same has been implemented in other states.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Here is whats going to happen. With our traffic and poor qualify fuel, DPF clogging will be a popular issue.
So people will buy the car, and do DPF "DELETE".

Indeed, it ought to become more common than an EGR delete!

Originally Posted by sparky@home

...“PUC” test...the test was going online in couple of months, here in kerala, which would mean that, the check would be done by some govt. computer, and that if one fails, one fails, no adjustment can be done. I am not aware if the same has been implemented. Wonder if same has been implemented in other states.

Online PUC testing is the buzzword in Delhi. And no, the check is not done by some government computer, it's the machine at the testing centre's end that sends the data to a 'govt. computer' - the system then allows the testing centre to print out the certificate (or not). So the data input will be based on what the testing centre does, and as tsk1979 rightly pointed out...

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Pollution check centers will put a pipe in exhaust, and then a dot matrix printer will make lot of noise and print some garbage, and life will go on.

They'll also take a picture of the pipe in the exhaust just to make the test 'kosher' - as they do even now.

[myavu]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

So the data input will be based on what the testing centre does, and as tsk1979 rightly pointed out...

They'll also take a picture of the pipe in the exhaust just to make the test 'kosher' - as they do even now.

But in my last test (the same centre which I am doing annual testing for at least past 5 years) don't have an option to edit or input manual values. I had mentioned my experience here https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4560940 (PUC - Pollution Under Control ?)

The centre guy informed me that the system was updated recently and many vehicles had already failed the PUC test.

Some years back there was an incident like the Photo was taken of Vehicle A and the sensor was inserted into a relatively new Vehicle B's exhaust

Cheers!

[headers]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

The operative word is PUSH. Pushed away. Read the news. Pushed beyond affordability - read this.

We knew the Mahindra story long ago. They bought Reva with an intention to transfer technology and eventually close it.

The second article is by a person connected with MSIL and hence the statement about affordability. MSIL does not have the future tech on BS6 engines and are staring at a wall. Expect big discounts towards the EOY for the existing models.

Another POV, they could also push the govt to postpone the BS6 implementation!!

Having known senior management in the industry, some of them are very optimistic about the government luring technology from elsewhere in the world to make it happen.

AFAIK, India and China are competing in this space as well.

As far as I'm concerned, personally, I will miss the IC engines!!

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by headers

We knew the Mahindra story long ago. They bought Reva with an intention to transfer technology and eventually close it.

...and since then the government has taken a U-turn on its earlier EV policy & NEMMP, and we don't have much demand for EVs as things stand now.

The second article is by a person connected with MSIL and hence the statement about affordability. MSIL does not have the future tech on BS6 engines and are staring at a wall.

Going by the introduction of BS-VI compliant vehicles like the Baleno and Alto, it certainly doesn't look that way.

Another POV, they could also push the govt to postpone the BS6 implementation!!

...which they well might, as I mentioned in the beginning...

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

In less than a year's time, the manufacturers would be able to gather enough real-world data about the performance and issues/problems of a few thousand BSVI vehicles running on BSIV fuels, and then be able to:

a. Argue with the government about the non-feasibility of running BSVI/Euro-6 vehicles with BSIV fuels (and thus postpone the BSVI introduction date);

-----------------------------------

Originally Posted by headers

Having known senior management in the industry, some of them are very optimistic about the government luring technology from elsewhere in the world to make it happen.

What kind of technology?

AFAIK, India and China are competing in this space as well.

Which space? The EV space?

As far as I'm concerned, personally, I will miss the IC engines!!

Won't happen in my lifetime, I'm quite sure.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by headers

EVs are being given a BIG PUSH by the Ministry to the auto industry

Today I saw a news item about EVs in UP. In major cities there are plans to set up charging stations on the model of Fuel Pumps. So the state is getting serious.

[chiranjitp]

First of all thanks to SS-Traveller for this informative & eyeopening thread. According to my knowledge most refineries won't be able to produce BS-VI fuels by the 2020 deadline, it seems up-gradation of refineries is a time consuming & costly process.

So we might end up having to run BS-VI complaint engines on BS-IV fuel for some time (till BS-VI fuel becomes available pan India). I am pretty certain that to be BS-VI complaint, a BS-VI engine would need to run on BS-VI fuel, otherwise it won't be able to fully meet BS-VI norms. The other problem I see is the complicated emission system of BS-VI engines (diesels especially) might be damaged (in the long run) due to running on BS-IV fuel.

Originally Posted by gauravanekar

Volvo & Daimler too uses SCR in its buses and trucks extensively.

Not only Volvo & Diamler, it seems even TATA has started using SCR in their commercial vehicles. Some photos from my side: