[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

By itself in the same organisation structure - unlikely to be viable. But maybe can be made viable.
But mandated? Extention of 'right to repair'.

I am a liberal at heart, so I don’t like rules and regulations. However, I would be the first one to admit it might be the only way to make this happen.

We see a huge amount of recycling these days. A lot of that has been mandated. In the EU if a company brings consumer electronics onto the market, it also needs to ensure a safe, easy, environmental scrap/recycle process in place at the place of sales. So these days if you buy for instance a new fridge, when they come to deliver it, they also pick up your old fridge. Not because they want to, but because they have to. Any place selling consumer equipement batteries (i.e. the penlights, AA etc) also needs to collect used batteries and ensure safe, environmental disposal. Again, not because they wanted to, but it is mandated by law.

The right to repair is already well established, but does run into the issues as pointed out before. In fact there is also something like the right to service. So for instance car manufacturers have to ensure that regular garages and workshops can service their cars too, without the need for hugely expensive investments in dedicated (electronic) tooling. Very important for organisation like the AA (The ones helping you out if your car coinks out on you, not the Alcohol related one).

Again, that had to be mandated, because car manufacturers like to lock out everybody other than their appointed dealers. Walled garden concepts never work well.

Jeroen

[bharatbits]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

An extremely relevant thread! But there needs to be a paradigm shift in customer mentality as well and not just just the manufacturers and service centres. Customers including me have been very happy when service centres have replaced parts, specially under warranty, instead of repairing them.

The warranty clause has to change. Will be repaired to OEM level and if not possible will be replaced. I would not mind getting something repaired under warranty if possible. Ultimately, the money to replace the parts under warranty is also being paid by the buyers themselves (be it extended warranty or ex showroom price). Manufacturers can bring pricing down by a bit by including this clause.

Customer mentality is if i don't have to pay for it replace the entire set up for me for free under warranty. If the fault is with the wiper stalk he'll push for the replacement of the steering assembly. If the customer has to pay for it he'll push for repair if possible else replacement of the defective part alone.

Replace works well in economies where labour is scarce and repairing turns out more expensive than replacing. But, for India with abundant labour it makes sense to repair sometimes than just replace. Blindly emulating the west doesn't work always.

[gkveda]

No offense to anyone within this forum or outside of this forum, but as humans, we have determined to spoil the earth and environment with all possible ways. And we just think we are doing everything possible to save earth by doing some small negligible things.

On lighter side, this is like killing all the wild life in the world, and then carve them on rocks, draw pictures on canvas to show that we are wildlife lovers.

Consumption of raw materials for New vehicles
On an average, once in five years, every car owner changes his 4 wheeler
On an average, every middle class person has at least 2 vehicles in his house
On an average, at least 3-4 modifications will be present on every 2/4 wheeler
On an average, Higher middle class person has at least two 4 wheelers

We can go on listing the statistics above

On an average, two wheeler weighs around 140 Kgs and car weighs around 2000 Kgs (Correct me if I am wrong)

Now, coming to statistics on replaceable parts wear out.
On an average, the replaceable parts(Like Brake shoes, Clutch, etc) work for 20,000 Kms. This translates to around 2 years(Assuming 10,000 Kms average per year)
The amount of raw material used is in the order of 1-4 kgs.

Now, let us compare where is more damage being done? Is it in replacing the old parts OR purchasing the new vehicles.

In my view, the Purchase syndrome has to be stopped in Human beings. We have to purchase only when it is ABSOLUTELY IN NEED and FOR ME.

Some one has said very well, "WE BUY THINGS THAT WE DO NOT NEED WITH THE MONEY THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO PLEASE PEOPLE WE DO NOT LIKE"

I definitely think the above attitude should vanish from human grey cells and this will solve the issue at large scale.

[scorpian]

Il share my countless experiences of being asked to replace when it could easily be repaired.
Was asked to replace entire steering mechanism for 40k for my car sx4. Refused and got it fixed at a independent shop for 2800.
Had some gear shifting issue in the same car after mass changed some radiator pipes, was advised to replace gear cables, again refused and lubricated them at home with chain lubricant. Works like a charm.
In my other car zen a jeep kissed my cars dicky, went to mass was quoted almost 30k including vague statements like we have to align the chasis and what not. Got it fixed outside with my trusted painter for 6k.
Everyone seems to be more interested in replace rather then even try to repair. Why not repair if possible and extend the life of the product?

[Mortis]

Interesting thread. I believe nowadays manufacturers are making complex, sealed, hard to repair, all in one type components that are not adding up to more reliable products for the Consumer. Also the complexity and inaccessibility leads to increased repair costs. Let's leave out for now the availability of labour that has the knowledge and skill to repair a part, preference to replace in order to earn a higher margin and miniturization because you get the equipment and components to repair it.

At the end of the day we have to face facts that products nowadays are not designed to last as they were back in the day. Even devices that don't need frequent replacement due to obsolescence or new features.

This year we have been replacing things left right and centre this at around the 6 year mark after we got a lot of new stuff after renovating the house. Not to mention car stuff at the 8 years mark after deciding to keep it for another couple of years.

However I have gotten my alternator repaired for a reasonable amount and also gotten my phone glass only replaced instead of the full screen for significantly more money.

[adi.mariner]

Excellent thread GTO. It is a similar story here on some offshore (oil and gas) vessels as well. We are advised to order the whole new pumps instead of spare parts. This is specially true for the small capacity pumps. The reasons being it is significantly cheaper to order a complete set (electric motor + pump) and their ready availability. The lead time to receive the spares along with the competence of the staff on-board (to repair the pump) forces the company to order complete sets. The failure of a critical pump can off-hire the vessel for a few days which means a direct loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars. No one wants to take that risk. At the end there are a lot of pumps which are repairable but scrapped due to lack of spares.

[greenhorn]

economically, there is no incentive to repair vs replace.
Repair involves local labor cost which is $$$ compared to a manufacturing plant where you have lower labor costs, economies of scale and investments in specialized tools

Repair involves troubleshooting and diagnosis which is pretty open ended. Finding a faulty 50c capacitor in a BCM/ECU could take several hours, and the result may not be guaranteed. Also this demands a more expensive skillset than your average assembly worker. On top of that the scarcity of this skillset and lack of consistency in service delivery tend to push most companies to a replace model where the costs are predictable, and the output is consistent and reliable.

Repairing also means that instead of stocking n major subassemblies, you are stocking n*m minor components, which in theory should reduce costs, but in reality add complexity and inventory costs.
Replacing means that you can swap between multisourced and structurally different but functionally identical modules, without adding to complexity and training needed for the above.
The list goes on and on. Nobody has invested in building a scalable repair model, and modern parts are not designed with serviceability in mind, which drives a vicious cycle.

On the plus side, I buy all my equipment used or not working in the US. for example, I got a current model onkyo C 7030 CD Player in non working condition for $25. i found a chinese laser replacement for $10, and it was up and running (after fixing a simple, critical manufacturing defect ( the cd player suspension was set up wrong, and was killing the lasers prematurely by wearing out their tracking servos)

On amazon, I read that onkyo USA was replacing these players rather than repairing them, and given an hour for the repair, and around $40 for parts at the OEM markups, this $150 player would have easily cost $100 to service - which is probably more expensive than a replacement. No wonder the owner sold it.

But hey, I got a $150+ Hi end CD player for $35 (and it doesnt end there - most of my Hi Fi eqpt was procured this way)