[balenoed_]

Wouldn't all this oil related hypothesis (blockage, no circulation.. etc) throw a warning on the instrument cluster? I still think a mechanical failure like timing chain (yes pistons are fine and the lower portion/connecting rods wouldn't be probably damaged in the case) which does not trigger any warnings as such. Or no?

[vishy76]

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Wouldn't all this oil related hypothesis (blockage, no circulation.. etc) throw a warning on the instrument cluster? I still think a mechanical failure like timing chain (yes pistons are fine and the lower portion/connecting rods wouldn't be probably damaged in the case) which does not trigger any warnings as such. Or no?

Not necessarily. One has to keep in mind that there's only a single oil pressure sensor for the entire engine block. If the pressure through the sensor is within limits, it doesn't necessarily mean that the other parts of the engine are getting adequate pressure.

The pressure sensor in this case might have been getting adequate oil but the lower half of the engine might have been starving for oil at the same time. And as I said, a failed timing chain doesn't explain why the piston rings would wear out or even the connecting rods. The head would be damaged in such a case

[Jeroen]

Sorry to hear about this. Very unfortunate.

As others have pointed out, it is unlikely to be a timing belt/chain. For an engine to have this much damage, it almost certainly points towards oil starvation.

It is possible to not have an oil pressure alarm and still have oil pressure issues going on, usually due to blockages. Better make sure they check real thoroughly for any potential blockage in all oil connections.


But it is still a bit of a mystery to me. This kind of damage doesn’t happen in seconds. It appears you stopped as soon as you heard the noises. So I am surprised to see so much damage. I am also surprised they can’t give you a better explanation as to what has happened. They obviously opened up the engine and there should be some tell tales on what went on. How many pistons were damaged? What about the bearings?

The piston / cilinder lubrication tends to fairly straightforward. Your oil pump pushes oil into the crankshaft oil canals, this ensures the bearings are lubricated and the access oil is flung out and lubricates the piston/piston rings and the cilinder.

So why would that not work? Well, only if there is a blockage somewhere or a problem with the oil pump. So I would definitely get them to check the proper operating of the oil pump, relief valves etc. You might also want them to check the filter. A very dirty filter will open its internal relief valve and that is an indication of pretty bad oil contamination and can cause the oil pressure in the system to drop.

I would also check the proper functioning of the oil pressure switch. If you turn on the ignition, did it show a red oil pressure alarm?

Let me put it like this: I would never ever start rebuilding an engine unless I was absolutely sure on what caused the problem in the first place. The problem wasn’t with the parts that were damage, those are the result of something else. You need them to find that “something else”. If there is still a blockage in the oil canal inside the crankcase you are going to have the exact same problem.

So if anything, make sure you get written warrantee on the work and parts carried out! Just in case.

Good luck

Jeroen

[arjunrudra]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Timing chain failure would destroy the top half of the engine usually, valves and top of the piston etc. This is the bottom end, piston, rings and connecting rod where I suspect either the oil or oil pump has failed. Of course we`ll get to know one they finish the tear down I suppose.

I'm still waiting on KJ Hyundai Devangare to tell me what the exact problem is. Since my issue happened on Friday, today is the first day I hear they are going to work on the engine. The Service manager Mr. Girish (a great guy and very supportive) has reached out to HMI Head for Services Karnatake on this.

Originally Posted by gkveda

I suggest to take second opinion. Cannot really rely on the diagnosis made by Service centre.

Did he open full engine and give his diagnosis report? Were you there when he opened the engine?

Suggest to take another opinion before proceeding with any other analysis since money involved is huge

Still in the process will update as soon as they tell me what exactly the problem is.

Originally Posted by vishy76

I think a timing chain failure in the worst case would lead to the valves getting bent and warrant an engine head rebuild. I don't see how it can damage connecting rods and piston rings especially.

It seems to be a classic case of oil starvation to me. You have clearly mentioned the car was serviced only a few weeks back.

Was an engine oil flush carried out by any chance? An oil flush on a high mileage car can cause catastrophic damage. It can accumulate sludge and deposit it onto the engine oil sump strainer, thus choking it and depriving the engine of oil. I would suggest you check the sump strainer once.

It seems to be a case of blockage in the oil galleries which has led to this failure since you have mentioned the oil levels were normal even after the engine siezure.

Nope and engine oil flush was not carried out.

Just a regular service, brake pads and engine oil and suspension checks.

It was just serviced and we believe in preserving the cars. So car service regimes are very strict for us.

I have a 15 year old corolla automatic which runs perfectly , testament to service.

Originally Posted by J4J

Can understand this. We, as customers religiously follow manufacturer guidelines and service intervals to avoid facing any issue. But this is of no use. If anything happens, we have have to face the brunt.

I've reported issues and made the S.A write down these points and taken vehicle back after a few months as the issue I reported (during warranty period) caused some more serious issues later. Still they are least bothered.

What I have learnt is that there is ZERO benefit a customer gets if he follows service manual and services his/her vehicles from ASC. Its much better to get these done outside at trusted FNG and to follow a proactive maintenance/replacement schedule.

So true I have reached out to Hyundai Central customer care also. Hoping they support us.

Originally Posted by R2D2

Yes, this is unlikely to be a timing chain/belt failure.

Very true about flushes. I get tired of telling TBHPians NEVER to use engine flush especially on high mileage engines. Don't understand why people think a flush is a panacea for better engine performance or a must-do when shifting from mineral to synthetic or vice versa. Regular oil changes with good quality mineral/synthetic oil are all that is required to keep the engine clean.

Will update as soon as i get to hear from the service advisor and Hyundai.

Originally Posted by PratikPatel

In such cases it’s difficult to pinpoint the actual cause for failure by a mere cursory look at the engine and its internals. There is no way to pinpoint the actual chain of events unless someone with enough knowledge in all spears of mechanical engineering knowledge works through a methodical process of investigation of each damaged component. SAE has a Engine Failure Analysis textbook which is part of Engineering courses for Mechanical (with Automobile) and Automobile Engineering. That’s the level of knowledge required to do a proper analysis of such failures.

If you really want proper answers for the failure, you need to ask Hyundai to send a bonafide engineer to examine the engine and give you a proper engine failure analysis along which states the exact chain of events that took place in the engine to cause such a catastrophic failure.

thanks for this information. I have already asked Hyundai to get me a good analysis of the same.

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Correct, The same thing has happened to me, and I had to get an engine from a salvaged car. It worked out much cheaper than a new half engine and works perfectly fine for the most bit. I think the peak power output is a little lower, but fuel efficiency and refinement (NVH levels) is on par with a engine of comparable mileage.

How much did the spare engine cost ?

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

A lot of good feedback on above posts on the potential cause/problem at hand. With regards to the situation at hand and considering your car is out of warranty (hence limited chances of getting goodwill from Hyundai), I'd suggest getting the car towed back to Chennai - atleast you'll have some visibility of seeing/hearing what is the damage and a realistic view of the next steps to be taken.

Of course it goes without saying - the towing charges are something you will have to absorb. Unless of course you feel you have some leverage in getting the work managed out of the service station in Davangare. Do you have a quote/range on what could be the towing charges?

Towing is going to be 50k. Thats the crazy bit.

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Wouldn't all this oil related hypothesis (blockage, no circulation.. etc) throw a warning on the instrument cluster? I still think a mechanical failure like timing chain (yes pistons are fine and the lower portion/connecting rods wouldn't be probably damaged in the case) which does not trigger any warnings as such. Or no?

NO warning or anything was given. It was so smooth the car post service and this happened all of sudden.

Originally Posted by vishy76

Not necessarily. One has to keep in mind that there's only a single oil pressure sensor for the entire engine block. If the pressure through the sensor is within limits, it doesn't necessarily mean that the other parts of the engine are getting adequate pressure.

The pressure sensor in this case might have been getting adequate oil but the lower half of the engine might have been starving for oil at the same time. And as I said, a failed timing chain doesn't explain why the piston rings would wear out or even the connecting rods. The head would be damaged in such a case

Thanks Vishy for the very knowledgeable insights. Very soon i will be posting what the service guys and hyundai have said.


I also wanted to find out the best case scenario by which hyundai can help me with. What would it be ?

[beast_within]

Originally Posted by arjunrudra

Towing is going to be 50k. Thats the crazy bit.

Since all the four wheels and steering are in working condition, you can get it carefully pulled through a Bolero or similar vehicle.

[clevermax]

Originally Posted by beast_within

Since all the four wheels and steering are in working condition, you can get it carefully pulled through a Bolero or similar vehicle.

He can't run the engine and thus there won't be any power assist to the steering and brakes. Whoever is steering the towed vehicle will have to sweat it out.

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by arjunrudra

Towing is going to be 50k. Thats the crazy bit.

Probably towing is a better bet. Negotiate with your local service center (either HSS or an FNG) for that 50K. You could personally check on the progress as well as avoid the travel to Davanagere and the associated costs. If you are planning to keep the car for longer years, then working it out with a known and FNG could significantly reduce the price.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by arjunrudra

How much did the spare engine cost ?

NO warning or anything was given. It was so smooth the car post service and this happened all of sudden.

Mine was a Swift Diesel, cost was 95 k including labour at an FNG.

Incidentally, I had also got the car serviced just prior to the incident. No flush, no warning signs, car was cruising smoothly, lost power, smoke was coming out of the engine. Coasted to the side, and shut off the ignition. Waited for a bit and then opened up the bonnet. Found the coolant missing. Feared the worst. Took it to a Maruti ASS, confirmed that engine was bust, coolant had mixed with the engine oil, the ASS quoted 2.5 lacs. Took it to my FNG and did the swap.

[Artyom]

Very Unfortunate and scary to say the least.I am a noob when it comes to mechanicals and owns a Creta Manual.
It sends chills even thinking about your incident and has certainly got me worried.
As a result, I have a few questions and would appreciate if the members can answer them for me.

1.The Engine oil sump strainer is this ever replaced throughout the lifetime of a car under any particular service/interval service? If not then how frequently should we get it replaced to avoid any oil starvation issue.

2.The sludge formation on the strainer can only be the result of an engine flush or are there other factors/conditions which can cause it?

3.My understanding is engine flush is not necessary when shifting from Mineral to Synthetic oil. I made a move to synthetic oil during the 2nd service WITHOUT an engine flush. Should I be worried?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Artyom

1.The Engine oil sump strainer is this ever replaced throughout the lifetime of a car under any particular service/interval service? If not then how frequently should we get it replaced to avoid any oil starvation issue.?

The sump strainer never gets replaced normally. It doesn’t wear as such. Only if for whatever the reason the strainer is very dirty it requires cleaning, see below

Originally Posted by Artyom

2.The sludge formation on the strainer can only be the result of an engine flush or are there other factors/conditions which can cause it??

Yes, in general poor maintenance and prolonged running of such an engine can present some problems. E.g. extensive blow past (exhaust gasses blowing past the piston rings) will cause the oil to become very sludge like too.

Using the wrong oil, (it happens now and then) can cause the same problem. Blown head gasket, injectors leaking etc.

Originally Posted by Artyom

3.My understanding is engine flush is not necessary when shifting from Mineral to Synthetic oil. I made a move to synthetic oil during the 2nd service WITHOUT an engine flush. Should I be worried?

It is especially necessary when shifting from mineral to synthetic on older engines where all kinds of deposits will have formed over the years. The synthetic oil dislodges it. On a relatively new engine it should not be a problem.

Always check your owner manual about what oil specification it recommends. If it does not mention synthetic stick to whatever it does recommend.

Jeroen

[srini1785]

Unfortunate that this happened. Hopefully, your car is back on road. I just wanted to share my experience here. I had an old M800 which gave way after making some really loud noise from the bonnet. The MSIL crew diagnosed the problem as the crankshaft going out of true. Although, I must admit it felt a bit strange that a hardened piece of steel should go out of true. In the end, they just took it to the lathe and fixed it. I am guessing something similar has happened. I must add here that my car was older and such issues should not happen to a 6-7 year old car.

[NevGin]

Unfortunately it’s too late to know, if during the last oil change, they observed any metal shavings when draining the old oil. Were there any engine starting issues now and again before taking it for the service?

From the responses you have shared earlier, connecting rod fatigue (reduced tensile strength), gudgeon pin (rod bolts) fatigue or even the rod bearings could also be the possible cause. Reason for the same - possibly higher mileage, running hot (do you use sport mode very frequently?).

[mac187]

First thing, you should get the car back to Chennai where you can reassess the damage and work with service station/ FNG you know. 50K for towing is crazy talk. I see in your DP that you have a jeep, find a trailer and a driver with experience in towing, this can be done at much cheaper cost. Heck even transport guys would be a cheaper option.

[beast_within]

Originally Posted by mac187

Heck even transport guys would be a cheaper option.

Indeed! Agarwal Movers and Packers charged ~35k to transport my Swift from Amritsar to Raipur (C.G.) some ~1800 kms in a shared container. Obliviously my car was in working condition then.

[AKSarkar1]

Quite shocking and disheartening to hear especially when you make a conscious effort to maintain your vehicles in such a pristine way. I can only imagine the frustration that comes along with an incident like that.

I would definitely agree with all the other members who said to take a second opinion. The sad reality is that many workshops have become a cash cow for car companies in these trying economic times. I have simply stopped trusting even authorized dealers.

Also, you might want to consider the scrapyard engine option as some of the BHPians pointed out. However, it is also important to think that when a car undergoes a major repair like that, I feel that it changes the machine's driving dynamics permanently. How is your insurance company responding to this?