[ron82x3]

Originally Posted by ninjanayak

I am a Diesel Calibration Engineer by profession specializing in DPF calibration for Indian vehicles . I see a lot of queries and some misunderstanding about BS6 in general and DPF specifically on this forum. So as an expert I would like to clarify some of your doubts and questions regarding these things. So post your questions and queries below and I will try my best to answer them for you.

Hi. Great to know about your background. Really helps.
I know that DPF is not a new technology and was available since Euro 5 era; just that the technology is new for India.

I own a 2020 EcoSport 1.5 TDCi with DPF and wish to remove the DPF altogether. This is because, I fear that I will get stuck in the high altitudes (>8000 ft)where driving at high speeds is not feasible and manual regen is not available in my make and model. I don't want the anxiety related with DPF; although I have never been stuck in the 9000 km ownership experience over 1 year.

How should I proceed in doing so?
Should removing the DPF filter do the trick along with the old map of EcoSport 1.5?
Please recommend an action. I am really looking for a hassle free ownership experience with go anywhere capability.


Thanks in advance. Really looking forward for your reply.
Regards,
Subhasish

[Guna]

Originally Posted by ron82x3

How should I proceed in doing so?
Should removing the DPF filter do the trick along with the old map of EcoSport 1.5?

I am not sure but I think if you remove the DPF, your car may fail the emission test.

[ninjanayak]

Originally Posted by Nikhil Beke

What's your take on the ISS(idle start stop) systems on few of the small diesels, in context of DPF?

I haven't had the opportunity to work on ISS yet but there are plans to introduce it on the project I currently work on. From the preliminary data that was generated, there were decent improvements to FE and CO2 emissions in start-stop scenario and w.r.to DPF I am afraid I don't have any data yet.
Here is a very informative video from Bosch regarding ISS for any one interested.

https://youtu.be/_NvqQKLy614

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Hey, thanks for bringing your expertise to the Team-BHP open forum. Not many folks dare do this due to their commitments to their company, but I'm glad you decided to bring this to us at first hand.

Thank you for the warm welcome to this community!!

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

1. When calibrating the DPF and its behaviour, do you use specific quality of diesel, or do you randomly fill from any pump to allow for adulteration and poorer quality?

In the projects I have worked on, we used regular diesel that was available in retail outlets.
Reference fuel was used for type approval activities with the authorities, since they need to reproducible and quantifiable to higher degree.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

2. When calibrating DPF at high altitudes, do you take into account the presence of kerosene in the winter diesel that is supplied in those regions

Again speaking from the projects I have worked on, as this can vary from vehicle to vehicle, we used retail diesel during altitude tests, and from what I know, kerosene is no longer added to BS6 diesel (it was present in BS4 diesel). Correct me if I am wrong as this is not my expertise.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

3. Do you routinely check fuel quality for compliance with BS6 / Euro-VI norms of refinement, sulphur quantity etc.?

Not me or my team, as this is beyond my work area but there are separate fuel and fuel quality teams that monitor these things.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

4. Are there any engines, whether of small or high displacement, where DPFs are actually tested / calibrated for use under heavy load + low rpm conditions?

Yes, in fact this type of use case is prevalent in the LPV segment like the Tata ace/intra series or M&M Jeeto/Supro series or 3 wheeler applications. Cars or larger vehicles do not encounter these use cases often.

Originally Posted by ron82x3

I own a 2020 EcoSport 1.5 TDCi with DPF and wish to remove the DPF altogether. This is because, I fear that I will get stuck in the high altitudes (>8000 ft)where driving at high speeds is not feasible and manual regen is not available in my make and model. I don't want the anxiety related with DPF; although I have never been stuck in the 9000 km ownership experience over 1 year.

Before going any further, I would like to point out that making changes to anti-pollution devices without the consent of manufacturer is illegal and may void warranty and/or any other protections.
Since you mentioned that you haven't had any issues with the vehicle for 9000km, I would like to highlight that any problems with the vehicle would have surfaced by now, so your car should be in good shape. Besides, most manufacturers test their vehicles till 10000-12000ft and you can maybe contact fellow owners regarding their experiences in similar conditions for additional peace of mind. You could also go through my previous replies to similar question for suggestions.
Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by ron82x3

How should I proceed in doing so?
Should removing the DPF filter do the trick along with the old map of EcoSport 1.5?
Please recommend an action. I am really looking for a hassle free ownership experience with go anywhere capability.

While I am not sure what changes Ford has done while migrating to BS6, most manufacturers have done changes to their combustion chamber, EGR, Turbochargers, wiring harness etc. in addition to the after treatment system. So going back to BS4 maps may cause loss of functionality or improper engine performance.
I would suggest making very thorough research before going ahead and consult people with experience to your particular make and model.

[Bsimhan]

@Ninjanayak - Many thanks for your very insightful comments. There is one question I'd like to ask. With the Government looking at dual fuel engines, how will this impact the DPF issue. Thanks.

[akshay4587]

Just the thread, I was looking for.
I have a question regards to my Recently Acquired BMW E90 320D.
Its the last of the E90's to be sold in the country. It is supposedly a Euro4/BS4.

One thing intrigues me that, it's exhaust tip is always as clean as a petrol engine all the time, even if I drive it hard it does not smoke at all. What sort of particulate filter does it have, since it does not need any extra additives too.

All my other Euro/BS4 diesels smoke under hard acceleration, and have soot deposits in their exhausts.

[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by Bsimhan

@Ninjanayak - Many thanks for your very insightful comments. There is one question I'd like to ask. With the Government looking at dual fuel engines, how will this impact the DPF issue. Thanks.

Dual Fuel Engines are being proposed for Gasoline Engines, which do have any DPF.

[sunikkat]

Great thread, thanks for offering help here.

Question from me - why do we not hear lot of DPF issues for cars from BMW, Mercedes etc.? Are they using any sophisticated and expensive technology compared to others?

[Monty1]

Hi @ninjanayak,
Great timing for this thread and a warm welcome to the community.
I have a few basic questions as follows: -

1. I see some cars have the AdBlue (Scorpio, Harrier) where as some cars don't (Creta, Seltos) what is the difference in technology in DPF application for both

2. In Europe, I have never faced or heard of the DPF issues with any of the cars, however in India its a known issue post BS6. Is it because of the fuel quality or the underlying tech for DPF

3. Do you have a personal preference based on your experience, between a better DPF system amongst the Indian OEMs

[LONG_TOURER]

Originally Posted by ninjanayak

So post your questions and queries below and I will try my best to answer them for you.

Welcome to TBHP, wish you many happy interaction with fellow Bhpians in future.

My query is related to use of Engine oil. Do usage of BS4 engine oil in a BS6 engine hamper the DPF performance of the car ?


I recently had issue with the DPF while doing my Ladakh trip with elevation above 12000 feet above MSL. However, successfully completed the circuit only to get "Check exhaust system" warning on my Hyundai Tucson CRDi.

Does issue with DPF contribute to damage of Catalytic convertor ? My tucson catalytic convertor and the PM sensor were replaced in this whole ordeal by hyundai.

Thanks in advance.

[a_chelat]

Originally Posted by ninjanayak

Not necessarily, most cars operate fine unless in very extreme driving cases like very low speed driving (less than 20kmph), frequent start-stops and overloading conditions. OEMs have made sure that there are no problems in most driving conditions. So as I mentioned in a previous reply, with decent care, 95-98% of vehicles sold would not face any issues in city conditions.

Thank you for taking time out to reply to all the queries, it really helped allay a lot of concerns.

In case of a diesel automatic in a city like Bangalore or Mumbai where traffic is crawling most of the time, does the regen happen if we spend enough time on the road during our commute? Or would you recommend switching to manual mode and driving in higher rpms intermittently to make sure? Wanted to understand the best practice in this case.

Also, how do we deal with DEF freezing at low temperatures? What is the recommended procedure in such cases?

[abhishek46]

Dear Ninjanayak,
I have one query regarding the Active Regen.
When Active Regeneration has kicked in, do we need to drive normally OR do we need to maintain high rpms to ensure active regen is successful.

[ninjanayak]

Originally Posted by Bsimhan

With the Government looking at dual fuel engines, how will this impact the DPF issue. Thanks.

Bi-fuel tech is being done only for Gasoline engines currently i.e. CNG + Petrol. Since there are major technical limitations like the higher compression ratio of diesel engines or lack of spark plugs and its related tech etc.; its very difficult and expensive to develop Bi-fuel tech for existing diesel engines. But there are some plans to use bio-diesel in some trucks and buses. More details here are expected.

Originally Posted by akshay4587

One thing intrigues me that, it's exhaust tip is always as clean as a petrol engine all the time, even if I drive it hard it does not smoke at all. What sort of particulate filter does it have, since it does not need any extra additives too. All my other Euro/BS4 diesels smoke under hard acceleration, and have soot deposits in their exhausts.

BS4 vehicles had what is called a POC (particulate oxidation Catalyst) basically a Catalyst that could store some PM in it. This is a very inefficient way to treat PM and manufacturers would routinely skimp on the PGM (Precious Group Metal) coating of the catalyst to reduce cost. So it did the bare minimum in terms of storing PM and would fail during hard accelerations.
The vehicle you are referring to probably has a good quality POC i.e. good PGM concentration to trap and treat PM. More info can be had here. https://dieselnet.com/tech/cat_ftf.php

Originally Posted by sunikkat

Question from me - why do we not hear lot of DPF issues for cars from BMW, Mercedes etc.? Are they using any sophisticated and expensive technology compared to others?

I think it comes down to the sales volumes, more cars sold = more chances of issues occurring.
Also DPF has been around since 2008, and these companies have had more time to identify problems in different markets like EU, North America, China etc. As I mentioned in another earlier reply, these are teething issues that manufacturers are taking very seriously and will solve in coming months.
In terms of technology, they are very similar to cars sold in other price segments

Originally Posted by Monty1

1. I see some cars have the AdBlue (Scorpio, Harrier) where as some cars don't (Creta, Seltos) what is the difference in technology in DPF application for both

The presence/ absence of Adblue has nothing to do with DPF. DPF is only present to store and remove Particulate Matter.
NOx emissions are treated using either a LNT/NSC (Lean NOx Trap/Nitrogen Storage Catalyst) or a SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction). SCR is always accompanied with an Adblue injector system.

A SCR system will have three major components in the EGT:

DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst), DPF and the SCR.

A NSC system will usually have only two components:

NSC and a DPF.

• The NSC does the role of DOC+SCR, but the efficiency of NOx conversion is poor and not very robust. Some manufacturers take the NSC route because it removes the need for an extra catalyst, saving cost.
• SCR is more robust and future-proof, hence some manufacturers take the SCR route.

Hope this brings some clarity.

2. In Europe, I have never faced or heard of the DPF issues with any of the cars, however in India its a known issue post BS6. Is it because of the fuel quality or the underlying tech for DPF

Like I said in an earlier reply, DPF in EU has been around since 2008 and most issues have been resolved since then and same applies to India as well and will be solved in coming months

3. Do you have a personal preference based on your experience, between a better DPF system amongst the Indian OEMs

I don't have any personal preference as such

Originally Posted by LONG_TOURER

My query is related to use of Engine oil. Do usage of BS4 engine oil in a BS6 engine hamper the DPF performance of the car ?

I would strongly recommend against using BS4 oil in your BS6 vehicle, as BS4 oils had higher mineral content. This will impact the DPF over the life time of the vehicle with something called as Ash accumulation.

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...castrol-413608

Does issue with DPF contribute to damage of Catalytic convertor ? My tucson catalytic convertor and the PM sensor were replaced in this whole ordeal by hyundai.

While I dont have complete details here, Catalytic convertors can get damaged if they exposed to temperatures above 850degC. This can occur while driving uphill or in cases where the turbocharger is spinning fast enough to dissipate the heat coming from the engine. DPF may not be the reason for your ordeal there as you mentioned that the trip was successful.

Originally Posted by a_chelat

In case of a diesel automatic in a city like Bangalore or Mumbai where traffic is crawling most of the time, does the regen happen if we spend enough time on the road during our commute? Or would you recommend switching to manual mode and driving in higher rpms intermittently to make sure? Wanted to understand the best practice in this case.

I believe most manufacturers have tested their cars in such conditions, the most important variable here is the time between your start and end of commute. Most DPFs can finish Regen in 20-25 mins with few stops in between. You can observe this in your vehicle with the help of the DPF lamp.
If the time required for Regen is more than the duration of your commute, you may have to use the manual mode occasionally.
Avoiding start-stop/idling as much as possible during active regen will help a long way in smooth functioning of your DPF. Also avoid revving the engine very suddenly.

Also, how do we deal with DEF freezing at low temperatures? What is the recommended procedure in such cases?

While I am not an expert for DEF, I believe there are heating elements in the DEF tank to prevent things like this. correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

When Active Regeneration has kicked in, do we need to drive normally OR do we need to maintain high rpms to ensure active regen is successful.

Normal driving is sufficient as most OEMs have tested their systems to work in all conditions. Avoiding start-stop/idling as much as possible during active regen will help a long way in smooth functioning of your DPF. Also avoid revving the engine very suddenly.

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by shancz

Did we have DPFs in BS4 ?
I doubt it, this link also confirms that but I am not sure.
But if it was then quite an interesting question.

AFAIK, few VAG cars like Skoda Yeti had DPF during the BS4 era too.

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

i've one question too.

With BS4 fuels, we hardly heard about a DPF issue in BS4 engines. It had more sulphur content at 50 ppm(five times)than BS6 diesel, yet the cars were running fine with no DPF clogging. Now why do we have more cases of DPF in the BS6 era(ppm 10)when the fuel is much more cleaner?

@Ninjanayak, Keenly awaiting your reply on this too. Thanks for your time

[ninjanayak]

@Bibendum90949
BS4 vehicles didnt have a DPF, they had what is know as POC (Particle Oxidation Catalyst) commonly mistaken as a DPF. It was a passive filter, since no issues were observed. More info here https://dieselnet.com/tech/cat_ftf.php

[Ravi Parwan]

Why do we need to inject fuel to raise the temperature in the DPF? can this not be done using an electric heater?