[latentpotential]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

...
If you have oil consumption then check for blow-by by removing the dip stick once the engine is warmed up

BTW which car?

Ertiga, as mentioned in Signature. I ran the car for approx 300+ Kms today, with the OBD dongle connected, and checking for error codes continuously on the phone. On reaching back in the early evening, with the engine still hot & in running mode, pulled out the oil dipstick similar to that in the video, and there was no white smoke at all. Re-checked a few times just to be certain.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

We have to understand that any tuning box, which increases common rail fuel pressure, increases air intake, or increases turbo spool range, is adding burden to the car engine, and eventually making it more failure prone.
...

I had another question, I get an average of 16.x Kmpl right now, could there be any early warning signs like a drop in this value? What should I look for?

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by latentpotential

I had another question, I get an average of 16.x Kmpl right now, could there be any early warning signs like a drop in this value? What should I look for?

Generally diesels are built with greater tolerances compared to petrols, and the construction of the engine is heavier too. So any degradation in performance or engine life may not be very apparent early on. However if your engine was to last 3 lac kms (for example) with out rebuild, with a boost box it may only last 2 lac km (again example) before rebuilt.
The problems you may face and can use to diagnose is, early, unexpected failures of engine components, for say turbo failure, fuel pump, rail, injector failure etc. That is because any performance chip ususally increases fuel pressure at the common rail pump and/or increases turbo utilization by manipulating the waste gate, to provide more air, for the higher fuel intake.

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by Vishesh

...My question is- why do the manufacturers don't tune the ECU pete's way ? There has to be some very critical reason ! I'm damn curious on this !!!

I asked the exact same question to Karl Slym at the Ideator meet, and suggested they could roll out a ManzaSport tuned at 116bhp. His immediate reaction was 'Emissions', I even specifically clarified if its due to part wear and tear but he denied any major limitation. In the long term it's the Emissions that seriously affect the environment.

I guess they choose an optimal state of tune that doesn't stress any component to its limits. When there's a component failure there are various serious risks including a burden on the company to replace parts under warranty.

Please remember, these tuners disclaim themselves of any risks associated. They don't give a damn if the component life reduces by half or by 80%. It's YOUR cars suspension, exhaust, engine, wheels, warranty, insurance that gets compromised. Forget anything, if just 1 component fails while you're driving its YOUR LIFE that's at risk.

If it was possible and viable, I'm 101% sure atleast 1 manufacturer would've offered a sport version. A modified agreement with Fiat and the customer could've been made, but wasn't. Also, AFAIK, there isn't any law against this too. No-one did it, there must be good reason to this, else they wouldn't deprive a slowing market of a 'Sport' version.

Choose wisely.

P.S. : IIRC last April/May I once even reported posts with these tuning boxes demanding the moderators that such members be mandated to post the emission test results after the remap. Nothing happened.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Generally diesels are built with greater tolerances compared to petrols, and the construction of the engine is heavier too. So any degradation in performance or engine life may not be very apparent early on. However if your engine was to last 3 lac kms (for example) with out rebuild, with a boost box it may only last 2 lac km (again example) before rebuilt.
The problems you may face and can use to diagnose is, early, unexpected failures of engine components, for say turbo failure, fuel pump, rail, injector failure etc. That is because any performance chip ususally increases fuel pressure at the common rail pump and/or increases turbo utilization by manipulating the waste gate, to provide more air, for the higher fuel intake.

So in a remap, fuel rail pressure is not increased nor the turbo wastegate is manipulated is it? If so, what is the parameter that causes the bump in power?Just curious to know

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

So in a remap, fuel rail pressure is not increased nor the turbo wastegate is manipulated is it? If so, what is the parameter that causes the bump in power?Just curious to know

As far as I understand, the only way to increase power in an IC engine is to increase the 'charge' the fuel air mixture. So more fuel,more air, means more power. All tuning boxes or re maps, basically do the same thing, tell the fuel pump to bump up the fuel pressure, in the common rail, so injectors spurt more fuel into the cylinder, some of the remaps/tuning boxes also tell the turbo to spool higher/more time to add more air to this fuel and increase bhp.
Most of the piggyback ECU 'fool' the engine ECU into thinking, hey the pressure is too low, so ask for more fuel pressure.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

As far as I understand, the only way to increase power in an IC engine is to increase the 'charge' the fuel air mixture. So more fuel,more air, means more power. All tuning boxes or re maps, basically do the same thing, tell the fuel pump to bump up the fuel pressure, in the common rail, so injectors spurt more fuel into the cylinder, some of the remaps/tuning boxes also tell the turbo to spool higher/more time to add more air to this fuel and increase bhp.
Most of the piggyback ECU 'fool' the engine ECU into thinking, hey the pressure is too low, so ask for more fuel pressure.

Agree that the tuning box 'fools' the car ECU into increasing rail pressure. And the remap 'asks' the ECU to increase rail pressure. So the end result is that the fuel pump is operating at a higher pressure. So the life of the high pressure fuel pump decreases in both tuning box and remap is it not?

I agree that tuning boxes are a crude way of bumping up power without taking the holistic picture of the engine combustion parameters. Tuning boxes that control the turbo for more boost are somewhat better . What i am trying to understand is the 'extra stress' on the engine is present in both the cases right? So in the case of the Ertiga consuming oil , would it also have happened in case of a remap?

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

I asked the exact same question to Karl Slym at the Ideator meet, and suggested they could roll out a ManzaSport tuned at 116bhp. His immediate reaction was 'Emissions', I even specifically clarified if its due to part wear and tear but he denied any major limitation. In the long term it's the Emissions that seriously affect the environment.

Yes emissions do play a part, but the biggest reason why manufacturers opt to adopt a conservative tune is reliability. So that their cars can perform reliably under all conditions. Not all owners are car enthusiasts who will take care of their car, check oil levels, get the car serviced at proper intervals. Also there are concerns about fuel quality. Manufacturers tune the engine in such a way that even if you fill fuel of suspect quality, you can get away with it. Tuning the engine well under its real capability allows the engine to perform well even in adverse conditions.

I guess they choose an optimal state of tune that doesn't stress any component to its limits. When there's a component failure there are various serious risks including a burden on the company to replace parts under warranty.

Precisely

Please remember, these tuners disclaim themselves of any risks associated. They don't give a damn if the component life reduces by half or by 80%. It's YOUR cars suspension, exhaust, engine, wheels, warranty, insurance that gets compromised. Forget anything, if just 1 component fails while you're driving its YOUR LIFE that's at risk.

This depends on the tuner. Tuners also have their reputation at stake. They would not want their tuned cars to fail. Most tuners always advise customers to tune cars within 'limits'. That's why its always prudent to go to reputed tuners with good track record.

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

If it was possible and viable, I'm 101% sure atleast 1 manufacturer would've offered a sport version. A modified agreement with Fiat and the customer could've been made, but wasn't. Also, AFAIK, there isn't any law against this too. No-one did it, there must be good reason to this, else they wouldn't deprive a slowing market of a 'Sport' version.

Manufacturers do offer different states of tune for the same engine and they use this as a major point to differentiate their models. Take the case of the VAG 2.0 TDI engine, it is found in cars ranging from the Laura to the Audi A6, with power output ranging from 110 hp to 170 hp.

P.S. : IIRC last April/May I once even reported posts with these tuning boxes demanding the moderators that such members be mandated to post the emission test results after the remap. Nothing happened.

Why mandate it here? Govt. already mandates us to do emission check every 6 months and carry PUC certificate even for stock cars. We are all governed by the same law.

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Yes emissions do play a part, but the biggest reason why manufacturers opt to adopt a conservative tune is reliability. So that their cars can perform reliably under all conditions. Not all owners are car enthusiasts who will take care of their car, check oil levels, get the car serviced at proper intervals. Also there are concerns about fuel quality. Manufacturers tune the engine in such a way that even if you fill fuel of suspect quality, you can get away with it. Tuning the engine well under its real capability allows the engine to perform well even in adverse conditions.

This depends on the tuner. Tuners also have their reputation at stake. They would not want their tuned cars to fail. Most tuners always advise customers to tune cars within 'limits'. That's why its always prudent to go to reputed tuners with good track record.

THIS is where the problem is. IMO reputations are very much possible to be 'manufactured' these days. Moreover, consumers don't by the product alone, they buy into the brand - net net, not many want to admit that their's wasn't the best decision. So there are very few credible sources to give honest opinions.

Currently tuners just explain what they're doing and why. If tuners put numbers to the risks associated and vouched to stand by them, then it'd partly help. Else IMO its really not advisable to put up with the risks involved.

Why am I getting so 'exacting'? Because often people buy into things like expensive alloy wheels just for the sake of a theoretical opinion of improved performance & safety compared to regular steel wheels. Why would they want to risk all that investment to risk & safety and end up losing upto half their engine and component life after a remap!?

Manufacturers do offer different states of tune for the same engine and they use this as a major point to differentiate their models. Take the case of the VAG 2.0 TDI engine, it is found in cars ranging from the Laura to the Audi A6, with power output ranging from 110 hp to 170 hp.

True, Toyota uses the same diesel engine in Etios (& Liva) as the Corolla Altis. Renault uses the same dCI engine in Micra as well as the Duster/Fluence. Both in different states of tune. Honda even used the same iDtec in the SAME state of tune in both, the Amaze & City.

My main point was about the Fiat 1.3mjd since its the most widely shared engine in India and is known to be rev-friendly. Nobody's offered a 1.3mjd tuned at 116bhp.

Why mandate it here? Govt. already mandates us to do emission check every 6 months and carry PUC certificate even for stock cars. We are all governed by the same law.

THAT TIME I wanted it. Mostly because I felt everyone flaunted the modified torque curves, but not the emission ratings.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Currently tuners just explain what they're doing and why. If tuners put numbers to the risks associated and vouched to stand by them, then it'd partly help. Else IMO its really not advisable to put up with the risks involved.

More than 99.9% of the car buying public has already taken your advise . What is the percentage of people opting for remaps and tuning boxes? Minuscule if you ask me.

Lets face it, when you are opting to go for a remap etc.., you are taking a risk. But the person who is taking that risk by shelling out bucks, is doing so for something that he wants : i.e. increased performance. What allows these tuners to extract performance, is the safe and conservative path taken by engine mfrs.

If I can give a crude analogy, if 80 kph safe for me, someone else may find 100 kph safe for him on the same road. Both speeds are perfectly safe. By driving at 100 kph the other driver is perhaps taking just just a little bit more risk. Its the same with 'safe' remaps.

True, Toyota uses the same diesel engine in Etios (& Liva) as the Corolla Altis. Renault uses the same dCI engine in Micra as well as the Duster/Fluence. Both in different states of tune. Honda even used the same iDtec in the SAME state of tune in both, the Amaze & City.

My main point was about the Fiat 1.3mjd since its the most widely shared engine in India and is known to be rev-friendly. Nobody's offered a 1.3mjd tuned at 116bhp.

The higher states of tune of the D4D and dCI engines are still within the safe tune parameters set by the manufacturers as it was intended to be used in a wide range of segments. Probably the 75 bhp tune of the FGT or the 90 bhp tune of the VGT is already on the borderline of a 'safe tune' as per the manufacturer. I don't think any other big car uses the 1.3 MJD in a higher tune than 90 hp. Trust me, if it was possible these guys would use it for sure.

THAT TIME I wanted it. Mostly because I felt everyone flaunted the modified torque curves, but not the emission ratings.

If the guy wanted to flaunt his emission ratings he would buy an EV than chip his car. .

But seriously even with a stock car, if one revs the daylights out of the car and drives crazy he is certainly emitting more pollutants than a driver who is driving more efficiently. Same case with a big car Vs. small car.

[nitinbose]

Each engine is designed to provide a particular power and torque. The transmission and other related components are also mated to this engine so that they may work in harmony.

When you alter the engine configuration by means of tuning boxes/remaps, its likely that you could cross the limits the engine is handled to, resulting in lesser long term reliability, higher wear and tear as well as the other "mated" components adversely affected in the long term.

It also happens the protection mechanisms on the stock ECU may be circumvented resulting in greater damages in the long run.

[apachelongbow]

Remaps and tuning boxes both decrease engine life and increase stress on components. Any means of extracting more performance from the same engine means adding stress to it and decreasing overall life, there is no two ways about it.
And there is a world of difference between the two terms optimum performance and maximum performance. What the manufacturer gives, is always optimum performance (which is not purely an engine limit, it is the limit for the entire car, the purpose it has been built). Maximum performance is targeted only for race cars, or rally cars, where you can race, strip, rebuild and race.

[Rama Naveen]

Originally Posted by Otto

I've been using a tuning box (not pete's, sorry, I found that they were only the marketers and not designers of the the T/B and were charging WAYYY more than a TB available and just shipped across) for a long time now and with respect to emissions, temperatures (I've used an infrared gun) and fuel consumption - I found that it was indeed a boon to have if you're actually trying to save fuel.

Hi Bro , what is that alternate box and how much does it cost?
Did you experience any after effects ?
I got Tata Bolt diesel and wanted to try out power enhencers

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Rama Naveen

)
Hi Bro , what is that alternate box and how much does it cost?
Did you experience any after effects ?
I got Tata Bolt diesel and wanted to try out power enhencers

the car is 12 years old and has clocked more than 200000kms with the TB on. No issues whatsoever.
That just goes to say it's been tried and tested now.
The box I'm using is from DTE engineering.

[sgiitk]

Remember what the 'booster box' does, essentially remap the turbocharger for a higher performance, higher boosts, and a more aggressive profile. They recognise that the tuning is conservative, so make it more aggressive.

[Otto]

You're going to need a larger capacity air filter as well - no point in doing just one.

more fuel requires more air - it's as simple as that.


Mr. Lalit 9820289737 - 4 Seasons

It's been a while though....so not sure if the numbers still work. sorry about that.