Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed

im_srini · 2nd January 2009, 18:58

Hi Amit, I'll get back to you with the recommended procedure from the service manual as far as idling & the IAC are concerned.

I'm of the opinion that the throttle body is not to be taken apart so frequently. If it is getting dirty often, the problem lies in your air-filter or the PCV & EGR systems. While cleaning the TB might resolve the issue (temporarily), it appears to me that the root of the problem lies elsewhere...

P.S. - Referring to your engine bay pic above, a n00b question - is the brake booster on the F8D Alto on the passenger side ?

amit_mechengg · 2nd January 2009, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by im_srini

Hi Amit, I'll get back to you with the recommended procedure from the service manual as far as idling & the IAC are concerned.

I'm of the opinion that the throttle body is not to be taken apart so frequently. If it is getting dirty often, the problem lies in your air-filter or the PCV & EGR systems. While cleaning the TB might resolve the issue (temporarily), it appears to me that the root of the problem lies elsewhere...

P.S. - Referring to your engine bay pic above, a n00b question - is the brake booster on the F8D Alto on the passenger side ?

thanks a lot srini, you have helped me on number of occasions. do you have the soft copy of the service manual? please let me know the procedure.
yes the throttle body IAC bearing is very delicate and should not be opened so frequently. i too thought the air filter is the problem but i changed the filter too. i got a K&N replacement filter. how do i check the PVC and EGR systems?
even while coming from office i sprayed the carbuerttor spray in the valve and found black liquid oozing out. i am sure the carbon gets inside through the engine blowback gases.

its not my engine bay. i found one on the net. i too noticed that the booster is on opposite side.

kavesh55 · 2nd January 2009, 19:21

Alto seems to be a wierd car been using since the past 2 days. Thought it was an abusive earlier driver thats why. But no, it just surprises me.

ImmortalZ · 2nd January 2009, 20:26

I think the K&N might be a step backward as I've seen it mentioned in many threads that these filters let more dust in than OEM ones.

amit_mechengg · 3rd January 2009, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

I think the K&N might be a step backward as I've seen it mentioned in many threads that these filters let more dust in than OEM ones.

ya i do agree to this. but i am using K&N since long time and even if it fouls the throttle body it wont foul @ every 500 kms. the recommended throttle body cleaning is 25k kms.

headers · 3rd January 2009, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

I think the K&N might be a step backward as I've seen it mentioned in many threads that these filters let more dust in than OEM ones.

Sir, Can you elaborate on the above? Have you experienced the filter? And how is it related to amit's problem?

amit_mechengg · 3rd January 2009, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by headers

Sir, Can you elaborate on the above? Have you experienced the filter? And how is it related to amit's problem?

he is trying to say that that throttle body gets clogged due to excess dust that passes through the K&N filter. the frequent need of cleaning of throttle body is due to the k&n filter.
even if this is partly true i cannot believe that every 500 kms odd i need cleaning. i am using k&n since 2 years.

headers · 3rd January 2009, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

he is trying to say that that throttle body gets clogged due to excess dust that passes through the K&N filter. the frequent need of cleaning of throttle body is due to the k&n filter.
even if this is partly true i cannot believe that every 500 kms odd i need cleaning. i am using k&n since 2 years.

I got you there thanks. But the K&N is a better filter than the stock filter. It doesnt mean that one needs to clean the filter faster.

I've been using K&N for quite sometime now and have not faced much problems...but most of my vehicles dont have the fancy electronics!

Technocrat · 3rd January 2009, 17:43

Amit when was the last time you cleaned the K&N Filter ?

amit_mechengg · 3rd January 2009, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technocrat

Amit when was the last time you cleaned the K&N Filter ?

i got the K&N filter replaced. its a brand new with no traces of dirt. the old ones was used for 18k odd kms without cleaning.

i got my PCV valve checked. it was damn dirty and when opened dark black carbon flooded oil drops oozed out. the service centre didnt have a new valve so they replaced mines with one on an accident vehicle (alto). they have asked me to check for 2 days and report the performance. i will check consistently and update.

mine is a euro II complaint alto and does not carry and EGR system.

one more thing the MUL people told me is that if the IAC valve is clogged or if the functioning is not proper then we should face a jerk or the RPM should shoot up high. is this true? can someone throw a light on this.
in my case the RPM doesnt shoot up, nor i face any jerks.

vikram_d · 3rd January 2009, 20:02

Yes if there is a problem with the IAC then the idling rpm will shoot up.

amit_mechengg · 5th January 2009, 12:27

after changing the PCV valve the idling has become better. also today i dint observe any fluctuations in the RPM on idling. i think the problem was with the PCV valve. yet i need to confirm as i dint drive much today. i hope this was the only problem and it gets sorted out.

im_srini · 5th January 2009, 13:52

Hi Amit, I'm glad you've got your idling issue licked

This got in the way

Hence couldn't post from the service manual this weekend as promised !

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0684_0.jpg

Anyway, for the benefit of Alto lovers with idling issues, here is what I could find about the IAC & idling in the manual - the first image is of the PCV, where your car had an issue.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0692_0.jpg

Now, for the basic checklist, pages 1...

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0685_0.jpg

... & 2.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0686_0.jpg

The next bit is regarding the procedure to check something called IAC 'duty'. First is with the expensive Tech-2 I guess.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0687_0.jpg

Next, is the procedure to check the same if a Tech-2 isn't readily available.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0688_0.jpg

The throttle body, appears to be the same for both the F8D & the F10D engines.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0689_0.jpg

The removal & cleaning procedure for the TB.

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0690_0.jpg

Finally, the IAC valve check - you have to look out for something that happens in 60 ms !?!

Strange Behavior of my ALTO, Expert's Advice needed-img_0691_0.jpg

The service manual & parts catalogs are great if you're interested in knowing your car. Thankfully, the service manual for Maruti vehicles is no state secret (unlike a few other manufacturers), your regular dealer or service-center should be able to help you with getting a copy. For the Alto, the parts catalog is 300 INR & the service manual is around 800 INR.

amit_mechengg · 5th January 2009, 14:42

thanks a lot SRINI, the manual is of great information. i am just wondering why do MUL A.S.S people dont follow the procedure from the service manual.
i remember when the first time i got my throttle body cleaned the first thing they opened was IAC valve, whereas it is written in the manual that the IAC should not be disassembled. they also cleaned it thoroughly with CARB cleaner spray. i hope it hasnt caused any problem to the IAC valve.

the procedure of checking the IAC functioning for 60 ms was also never done. they also told me that IAC cannot be purchased seperately. i have to purchase the whole throttle body.

now i have to observe my alto for idling issues for a day or 2 and confirm.
one thing i noticed when i removed my PCV valve was that there was rattling sound when i shaked it. in the manual its written that if it rattles its fine or else replaced.
i think i need to couple a TECH2 again and check the IAC duty.

amit_mechengg · 6th January 2009, 10:51

yes!! the problem has vanished. no RPM dropping on idling, and no uneven vibrations.

Thanks to SRINI who directed me to the PCV valve. Also many thanks to other members who contributed their experience here.

PCV valve was the culprit here.

2nd January 2009, 18:58	#106
im_srini BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 491 Times View My Garage	Hi Amit, I'll get back to you with the recommended procedure from the service manual as far as idling & the IAC are concerned. I'm of the opinion that the throttle body is not to be taken apart so frequently. If it is getting dirty often, the problem lies in your air-filter or the PCV & EGR systems. While cleaning the TB might resolve the issue (temporarily), it appears to me that the root of the problem lies elsewhere... P.S. - Referring to your engine bay pic above, a n00b question - is the brake booster on the F8D Alto on the passenger side ? Last edited by im_srini : 2nd January 2009 at 19:00.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2009, 19:21	#108
kavesh55 BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 749 Thanked: 49 Times	Alto seems to be a wierd car been using since the past 2 days. Thought it was an abusive earlier driver thats why. But no, it just surprises me.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2009, 20:26	#109
ImmortalZ Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Trivandrum Posts: 2,192 Thanked: 601 Times View My Garage	I think the K&N might be a step backward as I've seen it mentioned in many threads that these filters let more dust in than OEM ones.
	() Thanks

3rd January 2009, 17:43	#114
Technocrat Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: GTA Posts: 14,765 Thanked: 2,705 Times	Amit when was the last time you cleaned the K&N Filter ?
	() Thanks

3rd January 2009, 20:02	#116
vikram_d Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,422 Thanked: 1,189 Times	Yes if there is a problem with the IAC then the idling rpm will shoot up.
	() Thanks

5th January 2009, 12:27	#117
amit_mechengg Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 2,488 Thanked: 2,263 Times View My Garage	after changing the PCV valve the idling has become better. also today i dint observe any fluctuations in the RPM on idling. i think the problem was with the PCV valve. yet i need to confirm as i dint drive much today. i hope this was the only problem and it gets sorted out.
	() Thanks

5th January 2009, 13:52	#118
im_srini BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portland Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 491 Times View My Garage	Hi Amit, I'm glad you've got your idling issue licked This got in the way Hence couldn't post from the service manual this weekend as promised ! Anyway, for the benefit of Alto lovers with idling issues, here is what I could find about the IAC & idling in the manual - the first image is of the PCV, where your car had an issue. Now, for the basic checklist, pages 1... ... & 2. The next bit is regarding the procedure to check something called IAC 'duty'. First is with the expensive Tech-2 I guess. Next, is the procedure to check the same if a Tech-2 isn't readily available. The throttle body, appears to be the same for both the F8D & the F10D engines. The removal & cleaning procedure for the TB. Finally, the IAC valve check - you have to look out for something that happens in 60 ms !?! The service manual & parts catalogs are great if you're interested in knowing your car. Thankfully, the service manual for Maruti vehicles is no state secret (unlike a few other manufacturers), your regular dealer or service-center should be able to help you with getting a copy. For the Alto, the parts catalog is 300 INR & the service manual is around 800 INR. Last edited by im_srini : 5th January 2009 at 13:56.
	() Thanks

5th January 2009, 14:42	#119
amit_mechengg Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 2,488 Thanked: 2,263 Times View My Garage	thanks a lot SRINI, the manual is of great information. i am just wondering why do MUL A.S.S people dont follow the procedure from the service manual. i remember when the first time i got my throttle body cleaned the first thing they opened was IAC valve, whereas it is written in the manual that the IAC should not be disassembled. they also cleaned it thoroughly with CARB cleaner spray. i hope it hasnt caused any problem to the IAC valve. the procedure of checking the IAC functioning for 60 ms was also never done. they also told me that IAC cannot be purchased seperately. i have to purchase the whole throttle body. now i have to observe my alto for idling issues for a day or 2 and confirm. one thing i noticed when i removed my PCV valve was that there was rattling sound when i shaked it. in the manual its written that if it rattles its fine or else replaced. i think i need to couple a TECH2 again and check the IAC duty.
	() Thanks

6th January 2009, 10:51	#120
amit_mechengg Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 2,488 Thanked: 2,263 Times View My Garage	yes!! the problem has vanished. no RPM dropping on idling, and no uneven vibrations. Thanks to SRINI who directed me to the PCV valve. Also many thanks to other members who contributed their experience here. PCV valve was the culprit here.
	() Thanks