[Bullfrog]

My friend is planning to buy a car and the dealer is offering a fab discount on one of the phased out models. The issue is that the car's manufacturing date is Aug 2008. Is there any harm in buying this car ? Under what conditions are these cars stocked generally by the manufacturer in these days of JIT etc, with very less inventory holding principle ?

All suggestions and help is highly appreciated.

By the way the car he is planning to buy is an i10 and the model is the 1.1L one.

Thanks
Bullfrog

[predatorwheelz]

@Bullfrog - Your friend is probably being sold the 1.1 Magna/Asta trim cars, which were discontinued after the 1.2 engine was launched. Now the 1.1 is only available in the lower D-Lite and Era trims.

I would suggest your friend to do a thourough PDI. August 2008 isnt that old a date, but some problems may have cropped up in stockyard storage.

If he is satisfied with the PDI, he should go for the car. Ask him to bargain hard, as the dealer has nowhere to go with an out-of-circulation car that is taking up valuable space in his stockyard!

[GTO]

Buying a supposedly *new* car that's been standing in one place for 10 months? No thanks. Please ask your friend to wisely choose a fresh production example instead.

[SS-Traveller]

If the discount is substantial, PLUS if the dealer is willing to provide your friend with a new battery and new tyres (i.e. of a manufacturing date within the last 3 months, go for it. Nothing happens to a car stored for a year or more, except degeneration of these two components. In any case, factor in the additional expense of replacing these two items soon, when you calculate how much discount is being given.

[ImmortalZ]

Wheel bearings. Those will have significantly reduced life if not used. Ask the dealer to change them on delivery or guarantee eventual replacement as FOC (its a wear and tear item normally).

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

Wheel bearings. Those will have significantly reduced life if not used.

IMHO bearing life will not be compromised with long-term storage of a new car.

@ trrk: Agree with you - battery and tyre life may not always be compromised. Even then, storing a charged battery for a long time / car standing on inflated tyres at the same spot may result in reduced life of tyres and batteries. Also the engine oil, if more than 1 year old, should be replaced ASAP.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Nothing happens to a car stored for a year or more, except degeneration of these two components.

Originally Posted by TRAUMASURG

There is no harm in buying a brand new car sitting in the dealer lot if it is a one year old model

Originally Posted by Roy.S

Well, if the price is right, why not?

I'll elaborate why it's not a good idea:

1. The i10 is a hot-seller. Why would a particular example have been in storage for about a year, when there are customers lining up for an i10 everyday? Why did this sole car not find a home when its production batchmates did just fine?

2. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a test-drive car? Or a couple of joy rides perhaps.

3. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a parts car, including as a supply for warranty replacements?

4. How was it stored? Not indoors I'm sure. The effect of direct sun and the relevant hot - cold temperature fluctuation on an idle car? What about flood damage? Engine bays of ignored cars are a haven for rats. Which Indian stock yard is rat free again?

5. Manufacturers don't announce the same, but improvements (however small) are constantly made to cars year on year (based on customer feedback, warranty claims, part failure reports etc.). This car surely isn't the beneficiary of any of these?

6. Was it washed on a daily basis? All of us know the answer to that. Couple that, with the direct sun effect, I'd love to see the paint quality on this car.

7. Tyres + battery have, in all probability, deteriorated. I'm willing to bet on damage to rubber seals, beading, wiper blades, rust inside the exhaust etc. etc. Even the braking system would need to be flushed & checked for any defects.

8. You are paying a lesser amount now, but the resale value will also be lower.

There are simply too many "ifs" & "buts" to this situation. Cars are built to run. If I'm buying new, I want NEW. Else, I'd rather pick a used 1 year old i10 that has seen *atleast* weekly running, than another that's been standing in one place. Heck it'll be far cheaper as well!

[SS-Traveller]

@GTO: I would beg to differ with your opinion, as explained below:

Originally Posted by GTO

I'll elaborate why it's not a good idea:

1. The i10 is a hot-seller. Why would a particular example have been in storage for about a year, when there are customers lining up for an i10 everyday? Why did this sole car not find a home when its production batchmates did just fine?

Difficult to comment on this, but maybe the car did not sell because of the recession? Surely it wouldn't be a lemon. That can be only decided once it's working on the road...

2. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a test-drive car? Or a couple of joy rides perhaps.

3. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a parts car, including as a supply for warranty replacements?

The company provides a warranty (4yr/80k km on the i10 IIRC) to cover parts and production quality from the date of sale/registration. If it was a test drive car, the odo would read some mileage. If the dealer has reset the odo, and it would be easily discovered if he did, that would be a legal offence.

4. How was it stored? Not indoors I'm sure. The effect of direct sun and the relevant hot - cold temperature fluctuation on an idle car? What about flood damage? Engine bays of ignored cars are a haven for rats. Which Indian stock yard is rat free again?

Sun exposure of paint does cause fading / peeling in some low quality paints, which would be immediately visible on inspection and cannot be hidden/polished over. Most new generation paints don't fade/peel so easily, since they are not nitrocellulose (NC) based like the paints of yore. Again, flood/rat damage will be evident on inspection/test drive before purchase. The t-bhp PDI checklist will come in handy here for non-technical folks.

5. Manufacturers don't announce the same, but improvements (however small) are constantly made to cars year on year (based on customer feedback, warranty claims, part failure reports etc.). This car surely isn't the beneficiary of any of these?

That is of course a major downside of buying an older model car.

6. Was it washed on a daily basis? All of us know the answer to that. Couple that, with the direct sun effect, I'd love to see the paint quality on this car.

Paint quality and deterioration thereof, as explained earlier, would be immediately evident on pre-purchase inspection.

7. Tyres + battery have, in all probability, deteriorated. I'm willing to bet on damage to rubber seals, beading, wiper blades, rust inside the exhaust etc. etc. Even the braking system would need to be flushed & checked for any defects.

Tyres and battery WILL deteriorate, as will rubber that is directly exposed to sun (such as wiper blades), but not those rubber components (such as door seals, rubber pipes, etc.) which are not exposed to direct sunlight. Most rubber components in automobiles are capable now of lasting over 3 years in tropical climates, since they are synthetic (EPDM). Which is why I had mentioned in a previous post that the tyres and battery ought to be of recent manufacture. Wiper blades are a minor expense to replace.

A little rust inside the exhaust does not matter, because all exhausts rust with time but continue to function as well as they are designed to. The brake system will contain DOT4 fluid factory-filled, and is good for a minimum of 3 years from date of filling, before the fluid needs change - there would be no reason to flush and check the unused system. Discs and drums will rust on the friction surfaces, but that would go away as soon as the brakes operate. In fact, rust on the disc surfaces is a good indicator that the car would not have been used for a long time.

8. You are paying a lesser amount now, but the resale value will also be lower.

That will depend on the quantum of discount offered. If the discount is Rs.5,000, I'd say 'forget it'. If it's Rs.50,000, I'd go for it...

There are simply too many "ifs" & "buts" to this situation. Cars are built to run. If I'm buying new, I want NEW. Else, I'd rather pick a used 1 year old i10 that has seen *atleast* weekly running, than another that's been standing in one place. Heck it'll be far cheaper as well!

A second owner 1-year-old car would definitely be cheaper, but with a part of the warranty expired, and with greater chances of misuse by the previous owner, for which he can't be held responsible later on. The dealer can and will be held responsible.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

@GTO: I would beg to differ with your opinion, as explained below:

SS-Traveller, I'd never go in for a car that's been standing in the dealer stockyard for a year, and you obviously would. In the end, it all boils down to personal preferences. My point is : Buying a NEW car is supposed to be a hassle-free experience. And clearly, there are too many ifs & buts associated with buying old stock.

To reply to your comments:

Difficult to comment on this, but maybe the car did not sell because of the recession? Surely it wouldn't be a lemon. That can be only decided once it's working on the road...

Please check the sales reports of the previous 12 months. The i10 has managed consistently respectable sales and has seen a top 10 position in near all months. In other words, the hatch is a best seller...recession or no recession. A 12 month old i10 dead inventory is more the exception than the rule.

If the dealer has reset the odo, and it would be easily discovered if he did, that would be a legal offence.

Unfortunately, and as is commonly known, most dealer test-drive cars have their odo disconnected. And yes, this practice is impossible to detect.

Sure, it is a legal offence. Good luck with a 7 year consumer battle. Plus, you have missed my point of a dealer potentially using it as a parts car. Remember, inventory costs are the highest / second highest (dependent on real estate costs) for any dealership. Many dealers will use their dead inventory to the max benefit possible.

Sun exposure of paint does cause fading / peeling in some low quality paints, which would be immediately visible on inspection and cannot be hidden/polished over.

It will never be the equivalent of a brand new fresh-off-the-production line car. Extent of damage will vary, of course.

Again, flood/rat damage will be evident on inspection/test drive before purchase.

Could be repaired, yes? But then, are we buying a brand new car or a repaired car?

The t-bhp PDI checklist will come in handy here for non-technical folks.

One of the main points of the Team-BHP PDI checklist : Buy a fresh production example!

Tyres and battery WILL deteriorate, as will rubber that is directly exposed to sun (such as wiper blades), but not those rubber components (such as door seals, rubber pipes, etc.) which are not exposed to direct sunlight. Most rubber components in automobiles are capable now of lasting over 3 years in tropical climates, since they are synthetic (EPDM).

I'm glad you agree that some parts will deteriorate. As for the other components which are capable of lasting over 3 years, you have effectively lost one full year of the life of the rubber with a one year old car, isn't it?

The brake system will contain DOT4 fluid factory-filled, and is good for a minimum of 3 years from date of filling, before the fluid needs change - there would be no reason to flush and check the unused system.

Brake fluid attracts moisture. And even in a running car, most manufacturers recommend a change once in two years. I don't agree with the 3 year time period.

That will depend on the quantum of discount offered. If the discount is Rs.5,000, I'd say 'forget it'. If it's Rs.50,000, I'd go for it...

A year old i10 will fetch atleast 25 - 30K less when its time for resale? What is the net benefit then?

A second owner 1-year-old car would definitely be cheaper, but with a part of the warranty expired, and with greater chances of misuse by the previous owner, for which he can't be held responsible later on. The dealer can and will be held responsible.

The point was : If I am buying new, I want new. If I want to save, then I can also consider a well-maintained 10,000 kms run i10 that could (potentially) be in better shape than dead inventory from a stockyard. New = hasslefree ownership = premium price.

[akj53]

Apart from the points mentioned by GTO, also confirm that the manufacturer's warranty will start from the date of sale to you.

I also bought an Altis in March 09 which was manufactured in Nov. 08. In my case car was stored for a lesser period and that too in winter. I have not faced any such problem. But you have to be careful.

[SS-Traveller]

At the cost of sounding argumentative, however, may I mention some disagreements as below...

Originally Posted by GTO

...most dealer test-drive cars have their odo disconnected. And yes, this practice is impossible to detect.
Not really - the odo cables have a paint seal after fitment from the factory, which is impossible to replicate once disturbed.

I'm glad you agree that some parts will deteriorate.
I hope you are not mentioning this sarcastically.

As for the other components which are capable of lasting over 3 years, you have effectively lost one full year of the life of the rubber with a one year old car, isn't it?
Yes - and it would be justified if I gain a Rs.50,000 discount...

Brake fluid attracts moisture. And even in a running car, most manufacturers recommend a change once in two years. I don't agree with the 3 year time period.
Once again, like wipers, replacing brake fluid is a minor expense, and easily done. A lot of cars on the road have never had brake fluid replaced for 5 years, and run without issues.

A year old i10 will fetch atleast 25 - 30K less when its time for resale? What is the net benefit then?
Provided the buyer is selling it at the end of just one year, the net benefit will be Rs.20,000. If he sells it at the end of 5 years, he still has a 2009-registered first-owner car to sell, and most buyers in the second-hand car market will look at the registration date rather than the manufacting date, and the owner's serial number. So, as compared to his buying a 2008-registered second-owner car for the same money, he will still benefit by 30-40k.

The point was : If I am buying new, I want new. If I want to save, then I can also consider a well-maintained 10,000 kms run i10 that could (potentially) be in better shape than dead inventory from a stockyard. New = hasslefree ownership = premium price.
Fully justified when the price paid is premium. If a substantial discount is available, which brings the price to almost the equivalent of a second-hand car of a similar age, ONLY then would I go for it. NOT otherwise (e.g., if the discount offered is 5k).

That sums it all up...

Originally Posted by GTO

In the end, it all boils down to personal preferences.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

At the cost of sounding argumentative, however, may I mention some disagreements as below...

That's the beauty of a forum, isn't it?! .

Not really - the odo cables have a paint seal after fitment from the factory, which is impossible to replicate once disturbed.

Surely not a straight-forward check & neither do all cars have it? And I'm willing to bet that dealers have a workaround on this. BTW, I've never gone through the hassle of checking this paint seal on any of the cars I've bought till date(neither would 99.99% of all new car buyers on this informed community). Sure sounds like another thing to add to that long list of checks on a 1 year old car!

A lot of cars on the road have never had brake fluid replaced for 5 years, and run without issues.

Navin ran an Audi for 30,000 miles (or similar) without an oil change. Doesn't say anything about what is ideal.

and most buyers in the second-hand car market will look at the registration date rather than the manufacting date, and the owner's serial number.

Actually, the manufacturered date is the one that most buyers (and all dealers) look at. Irrespective of age of car.

[100BHP]

Dear BullFrog,
Pls tell what is the variant being considered and how much is the discount and addtional freebies offered by the dealer ? What is the reason given by the dealership for this old stock and how many cars are there ?

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by GTO

That's the beauty of a forum, isn't it?! .

How true!

Originally Posted by GTO

Surely not a straight-forward check & neither do all cars have it? Sure sounds like another thing to add to that long list of checks on a 1 year old car!

Very simple check, and any roadside mechanic will show anybody how it's done. All cars have it, and yes, you're welcome to add this to the checklist when buying second-hand.

OT, but even those new-gen electronic (LCD display) odometers can be set back (clocked) - but that paint seal is impossible to duplicate. Clocking an odo will need that paint seal to be broken.

Originally Posted by GTO

Navin ran an Audi for 30,000 miles (or similar) without an oil change. Doesn't say anything about what is ideal.

30k miles in how many years? IMHO if I ran 30k miles or 50k km in one year, I would definitely change my brake oil after 1 year, not two. Brake oil imbibes more water, the more it is heated and cooled (i.e. the more the brakes are applied).

Originally Posted by GTO

Actually, the manufacturered date is the one that most buyers (and all dealers) look at. Irrespective of age of car.

There are more fools in India than heaven and earth combined , and most buyers of second-hand cars that I have personally come across look at the registration date.

One more point - a dark coloured (say, navy blue or deep red) car exposed to sun will show more fade than a pearl or ivory coloured car. So a light paint weathers the sun better, and shows less fade effect.

At the end of the day, buying the kind of car in question here will totally depend on

Originally Posted by 100BHP

how much is the discount and addtional freebies offered by the dealer ?

And an automotively challenged individual would do better to stay away from such a car. Me? I'll take it - provided there's no damage to the car as per my checklist, and the dealer's offering 50k off (cash, not equivalent value of freebies).

[TRAUMASURG]

Originally Posted by GTO

I'll elaborate why it's not a good idea:

1. The i10 is a hot-seller. Why would a particular example have been in storage for about a year, when there are customers lining up for an i10 everyday? Why did this sole car not find a home when its production batchmates did just fine?

2. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a test-drive car? Or a couple of joy rides perhaps.

3. What is the guarantee that this car was not used as a parts car, including as a supply for warranty replacements?

4. How was it stored? Not indoors I'm sure. The effect of direct sun and the relevant hot - cold temperature fluctuation on an idle car? What about flood damage? Engine bays of ignored cars are a haven for rats. Which Indian stock yard is rat free again?

5. Manufacturers don't announce the same, but improvements (however small) are constantly made to cars year on year (based on customer feedback, warranty claims, part failure reports etc.). This car surely isn't the beneficiary of any of these?

6. Was it washed on a daily basis? All of us know the answer to that. Couple that, with the direct sun effect, I'd love to see the paint quality on this car.

7. Tyres + battery have, in all probability, deteriorated. I'm willing to bet on damage to rubber seals, beading, wiper blades, rust inside the exhaust etc. etc. Even the braking system would need to be flushed & checked for any defects.

8. You are paying a lesser amount now, but the resale value will also be lower.

There are simply too many "ifs" & "buts" to this situation. Cars are built to run. If I'm buying new, I want NEW. Else, I'd rather pick a used 1 year old i10 that has seen *atleast* weekly running, than another that's been standing in one place. Heck it'll be far cheaper as well!

I am not sure how things are done in India.Here in USA,we do things differebt.If a dealer is using the car for demo ride, then it is not sold as brand new car...It is sold as demo and the pro rated warranty starts when the car is registered to the new buyer.but if the car has been registered once then it is sold as used car and not new sale.
Regarding the car being in demand,why it is not sold we"ll never know I presume the laws are there to protect the consumers in place in India,but my guess is that after being long enough on the forum I am understanding more about Indian car market/dealers.I can imagine the frustations the indian consumers have regarding the cars.I am reading about dealers removing parts from one car and putting in another
it is BUYERS BE AWARE