[wbd8779]

My all time favourite - I have had 4 of them

96 ' Passion Yellow - Bought New , sold 2006
2* Zen Carbons - Carbon and Steel bought from 2012 till now . Have a highly modified 1.3 still parked in the basement , repainted blue , with rally seats.
96' White Carb - Converted to 1.6 spec , now with a friend , took off the original rims and rear lenses when I sold it .

Its a legend , you are lucky to have a pristine example .

[BeemerBug_06]

A Regretful Tale

In life , people make mistakes. It is only human to make mistakes , after all they occur so that you can improve from there. So do remember to always learn from your mistakes. Even with your cars !

Here is a little story that wasn't narrated earlier in the thread , although it falls before me taking the car out on the highway.

So here goes !

The car was working perfectly fine and ran like a dream ever since I started dailying it early last year. However one fine day in October 2021, it stalled in middle of the road while I was driving and then refused to start . I was frustrated, although composed as I had a vague feeling it was something to do with the carburettor or fuel pump considering the breakdown it had had in August 2019 showed the same symptoms.

I eventually managed to get the car running after pumping the accelerator pedal a few times and had to keep the revs high while driving , else it would stall.
So it was driven straight to Ravi's garage and then diagnosed.

As i had expected , it was the carburettor AGAIN ! This was the second time the car had thrown up that issue. Partly due to my negligence too of not cleaning the carburettor regularly and servicing it on time . Ravi assured me that it would be sorted in a day or two and the car would be fine . With that thought I left for home.

The next day i got a call from him asking to visit the garage when free. So off I went . He had taken out the carburettor from the car and in his typical fashion pin pointed to me what was wrong with it . The entire inside was covered in gunk and the packing had disintegrated partially. But to make things worse , the second throttle butterfly valve was stuck and this time it was REALLY stuck. The bugger just would not budge even after using several dollops of WD40, carb cleaner spray and paint thinner. It seemed to have been stuck up for good !

So what next ? I was starting to get a bit fed up for starters.






STUCK !!!


Get well soon !

[BeemerBug_06]

The carburettor was cleaned up and serviced thereafter, however the second throttle butterfly valve refused to free up. I drove the car around in that state for sometime , but it just didn't drive like itself for obvious reasons. The pickup felt dead , it would struggle to go beyond 60 km/hr and the AC would virtually kill whatever little strength it had left.

Another frantic call was made to Ravi. He suggested that we get a new carburettor for the car as they are still available. Initially I agreed to his suggestion, but then the boy racer in me thought of something else.

Those of you who have experimented with carburettors and older cars would surely find this bit of the thread entertaining

I thought of going all out and plonking an Esteem carburettor into 1513 ! Well, although the carburettors that came for the 800, Zen and Esteem are basically the same i.e double barrel carburettors made my Mikuni , they obviously varied in certain aspects. The Esteem carburettor was equipped with larger jets and internal components in order to support the engine. A well-tuned Esteem carburettor on a stock Zen engine, Hmmmmm sounds like fun doesn't it !

Ravi instantly rejected my plan , and said that it's best to just keep the car original mechanically and get a new Zen carburettor instead of a used one from an Esteem. He also repeated that the Esteem carburettor would turn my car into a petroholic (a car that drinks too much fuel)😂 . But I stubbornly didn't listen and wanted to try this out . I wish I had thought it through that time itself .

I managed to get a used original UCAL-Mikuni Carburettor from a scrap Esteem via my contact at Chor Bazaar and was thrilled to plonk it into 1513.

After much reluctance and warning me repeatedly, Ravi agreed to help me fit the Esteem carburettor. It was first opened up cleaned and serviced and then fitted onto the car.

At first glance , things didn't look very good inside the Esteem carb. Just like my Zen's, everything was covered in gunk , the rubber bits were finished and there was a small amount of corrosion too. I however didn't let any apprehension get in the way.

[
Wide open throttle !!


The old carburettor






In goes the Esteem carburettor, after a tedious hour of loosening nut-bolts and rusty screws that had probably never been opened


A size comparison

[BeemerBug_06]

I was absolutely thrilled the first time the car rose to life after the Esteem carburettor had been installed. It sounded like a different car altogether. The calm and sweet engine idle note was replaced by a rather throaty note which sounded brilliant indeed.

On revving it , it sounded mean and full of energy. I felt that with this carburettor I would own the road and had daydreams of taking the car to autocross events and racing with it

A few noticeable differences in the way the car functioned with the Esteem carburettor were :-

• Better low end torque:- The Zen (carburettor version in particular) was often criticised for having poor low end torque. The Esteem carburettor however gave it a bit of a boost and the car felt livelier to drive at lower speeds without having to downshift constantly

• Raw driving experience:- While the original carburettor was fun when it was fully functional, the Esteem carburettor made driving all the more enjoyable. The car would literally race off from a standstill and spin wheels even in second gear, it was also substantially quicker to the redline

• Variation in engine idle note:- The Esteem carb gave the car a slightly burbly and sporty engine note. It sounded absolutely beautiful while idling smoothly and that often tempted me to get an exhaust for it

It was truly a happy time with the car during the initial days of the Esteem carb. Unfortunately the happiness was short lived ! Sigh !

About a week after i had done the transplant. The car began to behave weird. It started to rattle and rumble while idling (something it never did before) and it would not pick up without jerking constantly. So there came another visit to the workshop . After diagnosing it , it was found that the accelerator pump located near the diaphragm was faulty and was throwing out petrol. Something that it is not supposed to be doing.

I was confused , but confident that it would be resolved. The part had clearly failed. So what to do ? It was 2021 , and not 2001 unfortunately. So going and getting a carburettor accelerator pump was a bit too impossible. Finally, we decided to put the pump from the original Zen carb onto the Esteem's and it ran fine. Incident #1

Incident #2 - One morning when I was off to work , the car began to throw a tantrum . It wouldn't start without me holding down the accelerator and then would idle roughly before stalling again. Turns out the idle jet had an issue. Ugh. It was opened up again , cleaned and put back.

Incident #3 - For a few months after the second incident , the car ran fine courtesy of Ravi and Sanjay Bhai from the neighborhood who patiently listened to my rants and helped set the car right.
However, on a hot summer afternoon on my way back from work, i turned on the AC which effectively turned off the car. I then turned off the AC and started the car. It was alright. But everytime , the AC was turned on it would die. So I drove home , baking in the heat.
The problem was ruled out as a faulty AC actuator part, which is responsible for setting the idle everytime the AC is turned on and off.

I was fed up. This time for good !

I even had the thought of letting go of the car at one point and getting something modern , away from all these Carburetted headaches. Head supported , but heart detested. Well after all, it was my idea to try out this transplant.

Besides these incidents , the car just did not run properly no matter how hard we tried to set it right. To make matters worse , it had started to give me terrible mileage like 7-8 kmpl and would never accelerate smoothly without jerking. Perhaps it was a sign.


At its second home !
An attendant jokingly asked me , " Arey aap phir se kaise aaye ? Kal hi toh petrol bhara tha aapke gaadi mein hahah"

[BeemerBug_06]

Mistakes were made

With the fuel prices rising , having an uneconomical and unreliable car did not help. I got an earful from the home ministry for spending excessively on fuel and besides that I felt more upset for having screwed up a perfectly smooth and functional car with my silly ideas.

I then finally decided to put an end to the saga. Ravi was approached yet again , although this time rather sheepishly and warily. I said to him , "Ravi uncle , how about uhhh we put uhh a hmm new Zen carburettor for 1513 ?" He had nothing but an evil smile on his face and began to laugh hysterically because he very well knew that I'd eventually come to him with this worry.


I wish I had listened to him in the beginning. It would have saved me a lot of money, stress, anxiety and ensured i had more patience and peace of mind left.
Well as i mentioned earlier , mistakes were made. It's important that we learn from them !

So we took some time out and visited the wholesale car parts market at Opera House in South Mumbai and were lucky to find a few shops that had a new carburettor in stock. While we looked around for the original UCAL Mikuni carb, it wasn't found because the company has officially gone defunct.

I eventually bought a made in India KPACCO carburettor from Nitin Motors , a Maruti Suzuki parts specialist shop , at a decent rate. The piece was almost brand new as it was manufactured in 2022 Jan. A few people told me to avoid this so called Desi-maal. But in a situation like this , it is best to get what you get and move on.




There it is , all clean and shiny !

We purchased the carburettor along with a set of packing and a cleaning spray. The following day, we installed it for the car and gave it a tune up. Things were back to normal instantly. The car was back to being it's peaceful silent self. Not a rattle or whine was heard anywhere and boy o boy it ran like butter !
My fuel economy figures were also restored eventually. At present I get around 12 kmpl in the city with the AC on and about 18 on the highway which is normal and fair.


It has been nearly 3 months and about 3.5k km since I put the new carburettor for the car and it has not given a single issue whatsoever. If I am brutally honest , it is running at its absolute best right now. Every morning I'm greeted by a half-self start and water dripping from the tailpipe. I had missed that !

Lesson learnt - When someone experienced tells you something , do them and yourself a favour and listen to what they're saying and think it through carefully.
Or rather , just think everything through carefully !
Another noteworthy point being that for cars like this which have been well preserved and taken care off for such a long period of time , it is best to leave it original and not meddle with the Mechanicals.

Learn from your mistakes !

Signing off for now ,
BeemerBug !

[kvsneela]

We had Zen 1997 model for sometime. The secondary butterfly valve in the carb.is required for higher rpms( about more than 80% of throttle opening). If the car is not used in highways ( higher rpm) , this valve has no opportunity to open regularly and will get jammed in due course.

[BeemerBug_06]

Originally Posted by kvsneela

We had Zen 1997 model for sometime. The secondary butterfly valve in the carb.is required for higher rpms( about more than 80% of throttle opening). If the car is not used in highways ( higher rpm) , this valve has no opportunity to open regularly and will get jammed in due course.

Yes, you're quite right. Until the latter half of last year, my running was very minimal and limited. Ever since I got working and started using the car daily, I've noticed a vast improvement in the way she drives. As for the carb, it is functioning perfectly now. The secondary screams open as it should.

Something I've come to learn over time is that although these cars are now old, they're still very useable and should be used and enjoyed regularly, it always does the car plenty of good too

[Zen2001]

I've had similar issues with my 2020 Zen's carburettor since 2020. Engine would die on sudden throttle input, but not on gradual, cautious small inputs, as if the fuel supply is being abruptly cut off. While completely overhauling the same, with a carb repair kit I managed to source from a spare parts shop, the garage owner/ carb mechanic temporarily fitted an esteem carb as the overhauling would consume 2 days at least. I experienced the same throaty/raspy "fun to drive" engine note but also realised that the idle was very rough and high and the car didn't seem "peaceful" as before.

After overhauling the original carb, the issue still wasn't solved - infact it seemed worse, with the car dying at the mere press of the accelerator pedal. They offered to let me keep the esteem carb, as it was "working", as several attempts at re - dismantling, cleaning, setting etc couldn't get rid of the problem. But something in my head told me it's better living with the known devil than the unknown and I went back with my original zen carburettor.

I still have the same issue, but have gotten "accustomed" to revv gradually to prevent stalling - something that almost always happens when starting off at a traffic signal or in bumper to bumper traffic. Strangely, this issue never happens when running on LPG so it's a likely accelerator pump issue, but unfortunately not yet taken care of.

I've found the KPacco brand on Amazon and on enquiring with spare parts vendors who can also provide the same, but on request and advance payment. Still not going that way till I find a reliable mechanic who actually knows what he's doing with a carburettor otherwise it'll be pointless.

[BeemerBug_06]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

I've had similar issues with my 2020 Zen's carburettor since 2020. Engine would die on sudden throttle input, but not on gradual, cautious small inputs, as if the fuel supply is being abruptly cut off. While completely overhauling the same, with a carb repair kit I managed to source from a spare parts shop, the garage owner/ carb mechanic temporarily fitted an esteem carb as the overhauling would consume 2 days at least. I experienced the same throaty/raspy "fun to drive" engine note but also realised that the idle was very rough and high and the car didn't seem "peaceful" as before.

After overhauling the original carb, the issue still wasn't solved - infact it seemed worse, with the car dying at the mere press of the accelerator pedal. They offered to let me keep the esteem carb, as it was "working", as several attempts at re - dismantling, cleaning, setting etc couldn't get rid of the problem. But something in my head told me it's better living with the known devil than the unknown and I went back with my original zen carburettor.

I still have the same issue, but have gotten "accustomed" to revv gradually to prevent stalling - something that almost always happens when starting off at a traffic signal or in bumper to bumper traffic. Strangely, this issue never happens when running on LPG so it's a likely accelerator pump issue, but unfortunately not yet taken care of.

I've found the KPacco brand on Amazon and on enquiring with spare parts vendors who can also provide the same, but on request and advance payment. Still not going that way till I find a reliable mechanic who actually knows what he's doing with a carburettor otherwise it'll be pointless.

Very likely that the problem in your Zen's carburettor is being caused due to worn out internal parts such as the slow jet, idle jet etc. Also the accelerator pump as you correctly pointed out. Do check the condition of the fuel tank, lines and petrol filter as well.

If you ask me, I would suggest you to avoid wasting time on getting the old one sorted. Most mechanics these days do not want to spend their time on fixing up carburettors anymore, considering they usually have bigger jobs at hand. Of course, you can keep it aside and work on it when you have free time.

I would say, go for the brand new KPACCO carb, it will do the car a world of good and save you several headaches. Please don't buy such parts online, visit a car parts wholesale market and look around. Most likely you'd find it, else connect with Nitin Motors or Shetty Motors at Opera House in Mumbai, they might be able to help you there.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by kvsneela

If the car is not used in highways ( higher rpm) , this valve has no opportunity to open regularly and will get jammed in due course.

This is why the ‘Italian Tune Up’ is recommended!
All cars need to be used and run and ‘openied up’ regularly so as to get all the parts moving and juices flowing.

Just like the human body, if left idle for long, the body atrophies.

We all love our cars. We owe it to them to use them regularly. Even if it is just for a joyride or a Sunday drive!

[Mohanprasath]

Nice experience Beemerbug.

I'm owning a 2001 Zen carb, which was mostly used on LPG. So, the fuel pump went off due to rusting and carb was filled with debris and similar to your case, secondary throttle got stuck, secondary throttle diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragm went off. After that, I consulted my mechanic and decided to overhaul it. I bought all the rubber seals and diaphragms from Boodmo and he managed to get the rest of the parts from his sources. It took around 4 days to overhaul (they soaked in brake oil to get the debris out of those small holes) and now it has done 4k kilometers without any issues. Also, sometimes I'll revv it hard in 2nd gear till it reaches 75 Kmph, so that the secondary throttle opens.

I'm getting 23-25 Kmpl on sedate driving and 18 - 19 Kmpl on normal driving in mixed conditions without AC and 15 Kmpl on normal driving with AC. Thank God, I got a good mechanic and he was able to do the work nicely!

And here are some questions to BHPians,can we swap the stock carb engine with the Esteem's MPFI engine? Is that a direct swap or do we need to alter the mountings and stiffen the chassis? How much FE will I get and how the performance will be? Can we use stock Zen suspension with Esteem engine? Is Esteem's engine reliable like Zen's engine and how much KM will it last?

[Zen2001]

Originally Posted by Mohanprasath

Nice experience Beemerbug.

I'm owning a 2001 Zen carb, which was mostly used on LPG. So, the fuel pump went off due to rusting and carb was filled with debris and similar to your case, secondary throttle got stuck, secondary throttle diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragm went off. After that, I consulted my mechanic and decided to overhaul it. I bought all the rubber seals and diaphragms from Boodmo and he managed to get the rest of the parts from his sources. It took around 4 days to overhaul (they soaked in brake oil to get the debris out of those small holes)

Exactly the same problem, did the exact same thing, but unfortunately did not get the exact same result! That was 2020. Then again, did the same exercise with a different mechanic in 2021 but no luck. I suspect in both attempts, the mechanics couldn't figure out what the issue was - realised that from their way of going about the cleaning process and re-assemby - couldn't figure where to re-attach the suction tubes : I had to revise the connections myself.

Originally Posted by Mohanprasath

I'm getting 23-25 Kmpl on sedate driving and 18 - 19 Kmpl on normal driving in mixed conditions without AC and 15 Kmpl on normal driving with AC. Thank God, I got a good mechanic and he was able to do the work nicely!

That's a great result! Obviously no need to ask how the car behaves on various degrees of throttle input, hard acceleration, overtaking etc - must be just as new! Lucky to get a good mechanic!

Originally Posted by Mohanprasath

And here are some questions to BHPians,can we swap the stock carb engine with the Esteem's MPFI engine? Is that a direct swap or do we need to alter the mountings and stiffen the chassis? How much FE will I get and how the performance will be? Can we use stock Zen suspension with Esteem engine? Is Esteem's engine reliable like Zen's engine and how much KM will it last?

There are seperate threads/posts on the same here, where 1.3 esteem and even 1.6 Baleno engine swaps have been executed. Chief points : Carb to Modi swap will require not just the engine, but also the ECU, wiring harnesses, other sensors. Engine mounting remains unaltered. A 1.3L swap may not require chassis/suspension work, but a 1.6 swap will. An option is to go with Zen-D suspension to take the extra weight. You will need better brakes - use the Esteem brake booster. Performance will obviously be better if everything has been done the right way, and accordingly the FE will be lower than the Zen's. Reliability depends on the state of the donor esteem engine and the quality of work done during the engine swap. Consider all this before going ahead and lastly, you might want to retain the original G10B to revert to, if anything goes wrong!

[Zen2001]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

This is why the ‘Italian Tune Up’ is recommended!
All cars need to be used and run and ‘openied up’ regularly so as to get all the parts moving and juices flowing.

Well said. Unfortunately most odd us in cities don't have the kind of roads to "open up" regularly, nor the time/inclination to take a dedicated highway drive just for that sake. I just pop the hood open and open the throttle spindle by hand gradually and hold it at high RPMs till i see (and hear!) the secondary open! Something's better than nothing!

[BeemerBug_06]

Originally Posted by Mohanprasath

Nice experience Beemerbug.

And here are some questions to BHPians,can we swap the stock carb engine with the Esteem's MPFI engine? Is that a direct swap or do we need to alter the mountings and stiffen the chassis? How much FE will I get and how the performance will be? Can we use stock Zen suspension with Esteem engine? Is Esteem's engine reliable like Zen's engine and how much KM will it last?

Thank you
Also to answer your query, the Esteem engine swap or E-ZEN as it is called is probably the safest and easiest engine swap to do. An umpteen number of people have done it since the 90s. The MPFI Esteem engine makes about 82 bhp and yes, it can be directly plonked into a Zen's engine bay. The mounting points are exactly the same. Along with that, you will have to transplant the wiring harness and ECU. The performance would go through the roof.

I always suggest people to buy a running Esteem and use it a bit before doing the swap so that they are assured the engine is in good shape. With regard to suspension and brakes, it is all interchangeable too. I would suggest you to put Esteem brakes for the car because it'll ensure better stopping power for the car. You can leave the suspension stock if you like, but ensure you put wider lower profile tyres to compliment for better handling and braking. A strut brace also may help. The skinny stock tyres won't be of any good.

With a swap like this , you can forget about FE hehehe. As for the engine, if your Esteem engine is good then you're sorted. The G Series engines are bulletproof, and are capable of taking a lot of abuse and running for up to 2-3 lakh km without having to be opened up.

[BeemerBug_06]

Here's a little something to give those of you viewing this thread a dash of added nostalgia. Sometime ago, I found an old Kodak KB-10 film camera at home. Many of you would remember/know of it considering it was one of the most famous cameras back in the 90s and early 2000s before the digital era took over. The camera hadn't been used in years, but after batteries and a film roll went in, it worked as well as it would have all those years ago.


Without a doubt, a picture of the Zen had to be taken on it. This picture is reminiscent of a by-gone era!