[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by swarnava.m

A little OT here. Couple of posts where people have spoken about Linea and Beemers having negative camber to start with.. What happens when regular tyre shop guys do wheel alignment for these cars? Are they aware of this? Will they not set the camber to zero?
Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Most road cars don't have camber adjustment at all. Moreover most modern alignment machines have company specified camber levels fed into their database. So there is no chance that the alignment guy will set it to zero.

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by sharc_biker

Why do Piaggio Apes have positive camber?

I know it makes the steering light in tractors and offroaders.

But isn't that because it is a 4 wheeler and positive camber is on the front axle?
If yes, why does a Piaggio Ape has it on the rear axle? Better load bearing?

Attachment 1071548
Image source

Because once you load up the Ape it sinks a bit on it's springs which brings the camber back to neutral / zero. The logic here is that these things will be running loaded more often than running empty, so most of the time the camber will be neutral.

The next time you see a CRV or a Civic on the road, take a quick peek to see if anyone's sitting in the back seat. If they are, then I'll bet you my bottom dollar the car will betray a fair amount of negative camber on the back wheels.

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by PapaBravo

1.How much does the camber of a car change from unladed to fully loaded state ?

That would depend on type of suspension, geometry & travel.

Originally Posted by PapaBravo

2. Will the cars with default Negative Camber not tramline in fully loaded conditions? This would defeat the purpose of having a camber in the first place.

Not sure i understand your question here..

Originally Posted by EagleEye

It's interesting, because Piaggio use the same positive camber on their aircraft as well.

Nice catch!

Some info from this thread:

"When the weight of the aircraft settles on the gear, the gear spreads. The spreading changes the camber into negative camber. This transition is more pronounced at higher weights.

As long as the aircraft attitude is nose up with weight on wheels, the now negative camber factors into two components… part negative camber and part toe-out.

If the aircraft has conventional gear, and negative camber with weight on main wheels and tailwheel, it will always have toe-out in the three point attitude.

Toe-out on a conventional gear is stabilizing. As the aircraft turns it leans
against the outside tire which is pointing away from the turn. The tire angle decreases the turning tendency and directional stability is easily maintained by the pilot. Most conventional gear aircraft are set up with slight negative camber with weight on wheels which results in a small toe-out component."

Originally Posted by ImprezaFan

Is there a relationship such that (all) FWD cars have rear tyres negatively cambered (or vice versa)? If yes, why?

Suspension is my weak point. I'll leave this to others to answer!

Originally Posted by Arch-Angel

So Negative camber is for handling and positive camber is for load bearing. But doesn't a neutral setup provide the best of both worlds?

I don't really think you can simplify it to that extent. There are plenty of other factors that would affect the handling or load carrying capacity of a car (eg. type of suspension (leaf springs = more common for heavy loads), toe setting, castor, etc etc).

If you're interested in knowing more, this might be a good place to start : http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html

Originally Posted by ghostrider

The next time you see a CRV ...

Bingo.

cya
R

[Arch-Angel]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

I don't really think you can simplify it to that extent. There are plenty of other factors that would affect the handling or load carrying capacity of a car (eg. type of suspension (leaf springs = more common for heavy loads), toe setting, castor, etc etc).
If you're interested in knowing more, this might be a good place to start : http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html

I agree on the points you have stated but (i hadn't specified) normal commuter applications( god that toyota has its wheels like yokozuna sat inside the vehicle ) would benefit more from a neutral setup right?

Specialist applications require different techniques and that aside, thanks for the link! I'll make sure to go through that. Free knowledge is not given everywhere .

[ariesonu]

Originally Posted by sharc_biker

Why do Piaggio Apes have positive camber?

I know it makes the steering light in tractors and offroaders.
But isn't that because it is a 4 wheeler and positive camber is on the front axle? If yes, why does a Piaggio Ape has it on the rear axle? Better load bearing?

You will find similar setup in STANDARD HERALDS too... They had slight positive camber and the tyres straighten up when the car is in motion.
On lighter note, you'll find many INDICAs with both positive & negative camber on same car.

Raab rakha.

[dhawcash]

Camber tyres aren't really a new invention. they have been used in Nascar since ages to optimize tire wear as the cars turn only in one direction on an oval track. the conicity of the tyres is designed according to the curves of the track and the inner and outer edges of the contact patch do not face 'skipping' with these on. at least the skipping is reduced. motorsport is all about the best compromise, so skipping is present in straights between turns.

I cannot fathom the logic behind this. Performance cars have carefully designed suspension geometries with in built camber gain. this means the camber can stay almost zero in straight line , and change to negative as the suspension moves while taking a corner.

In F1, front wheel camber is set according to the track. on a track with lot of corners, it is set more negative so that loss of time due to reduced grip while breaking and accelerating is negated by the time gained during cornering. a worthy compromise. Tyre temperatures are measured throughout the contact patch by race engineers to ensure the tyre is wearing out as evenly as possible and giving the maximum grip for the track.

Also, the website's media page is boasting about pike's peak, and a canyon road. pike's peak consists of some sections with poor asphalt, and the canyon 's road surface was rough as well. Plus the tread pattern consists of big blocks, which is almost semi slick. it is bound to give more grip. a proper test on a smooth racetrack should make things clearer?

the whole thing somehow doesn't fit.

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by dhawcash

Camber tyres aren't really a new invention. they have been used in Nascar since ages

Interesting, thanks.

They are also used in radio controlled drift cars : link

Originally Posted by dhawcash

I cannot fathom the logic behind this.

I think the main advantage here is for weekend racers. Even if the grip provided is the same, slightly worse or slightly better - they like the CamberTires since they don't get eaten down to the carcass as fast as regular tyres (when run with high camber). Probably turns out to be a cost effective purchase.

Originally Posted by dhawcash

a proper test on a smooth racetrack should make things clearer?

Exactly (though there will be the issue of compound -- if trying to validate purely the concept) -- but still, am surprised no one has done this.

cya
R

[karan561]

Another example of RC Drift cars having camber tires is clearly visible in this example;



Source : FB

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by ariesonu

On lighter note, you'll find many INDICAs with both positive & negative camber on same car.

That made my day. Hilarious!

[acatgain]

Originally Posted by ariesonu

On lighter note, you'll find many INDICAs with both positive & negative camber on same car.

Last week I found one Indicab with a confused camber setting.

That means the back right and front right tyre was wobling and producing an effect of positive and negative cambers at the same time. Now that you call it as an innovation !!

I think that patent needs to go to the TATA engineers and also those cab drivers.

[dhawcash]

Btw, i happen to own one.

Sports asymmetrical tread pattern which goes from normal treads and merges with a slick tread for optimum in performance! and its made by Ceat.



actually what happend was the rear wheel of my esteem hit a nasty bump during one fine longdrive. that bent the rear wheel's toe-control arm and to toe was pretty upset. enraged, the toe caused this particular tyre to face a different direction from the other three and was effectively sanded by the road during a 25 km trip back home. Voila! a camber tyre! Im sure its a T-Bhp First!

[Fiest@DuraTec]

Originally Posted by dhawcash

Btw, i happen to own one.

Sports asymmetrical tread pattern which goes from normal treads and merges with a slick tread for optimum in performance! and its made by Ceat.

Attachment 1074286

actually what happend was the rear wheel of my esteem hit a nasty bump during one fine longdrive. that bent the rear wheel's toe-control arm and to toe was pretty upset. enraged, the toe caused this particular tyre to face a different direction from the other three and was effectively sanded by the road during a 25 km trip back home. Voila! a camber tyre! Im sure its a T-Bhp First!

Is this thing a new invention in the market and popular ? If yes, I totally neglected a chance to get rich around 6 years back.
Both the front tyres on my palio had gone bad in the same pattern -inwards, culprit was the suspension.

[acatgain]

Originally Posted by dhawcash

Voila! a camber tyre! Im sure its a T-Bhp First!

You could have built a camber tyre buiding unit at your home with that esteem. Just run a 25km strech with normal tyre and sell them or for a fee you could also have normal tyres converted to camber tyres.

It could have been a good weekend job for you !!

[dhawcash]

i can still do that. make money while driving (having fun)!

Considering the exclusive nature of the product, 20K a unit sould be a reasonable fee to charge .

• Price per unit does not include donor tyres
• shipping to be borne by the customer
• all disputes subject to jaipur jurisdiction
• i have the right to change camber angles at my own free will
• if you feel like protesting against the high prices, dont bother. protests wont be entertained

There, i have a firm business plan ready.

[sujithpnair]

Thanks Rehaan, for a well narrated thread.

Though you have clearly mentioned in beginning that the discussion is around -ve camber, but here are some discussion related to load carrying capacity and tire wear too. Do you think adding details related to CASTER angle may bring more insight to topic?
Thanks.