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Old 1st October 2009, 19:45   #31
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I prefer option 1 but option 2 will be cheaper. A set of 3 way components where the mid can go down to 300Hz is not common.

The other option is to get 6" woofers for the door and mate them to a set of 4" 2 way components. In this option you will be sacrificing the alacrity of a true 3.5-4" midrange for the low midrange response and power handling of a 4" midbass but such is life. You can use the amp gain to calibrate the 6" woofer's level to that of the 4" midbass+tweeeter combo. The other problem (other than the alacrity of the midrange) I see is that most 4" midbass drivers are considerably deeper than 3.5-4" midrange drivers and you might have some minor trouble and/or alterations to make to fit this combo in your door.
Ok, Let me take option 2 for now. how do you find a HU that meets my requirement ?
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Old 1st October 2009, 20:05   #32
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Navin ji, wont a HU which can give him a 3 way settings for crossover et all be a good option?

Something like an Alpine 9887/ Pioneer P80RS / Clarion DXZ785US
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Old 1st October 2009, 22:47   #33
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
Navin ji, wont a HU which can give him a 3 way settings for crossover et all be a good option?
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
...edit: actually a new HU might be cheaper than components where the mid can go as low as 300Hz like the Legatia from Hybrid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
or better, get a hu which has 3 way capabilities.Alpine 9887/Pioneer P80RS/Clarion DXZ 785USB
Yes the HU change is the cheapest solution. However a good 3 way component set where the midrange (not midbass) can actually go down to 300Hz will offer him a 300-20kHz range that is close to the ear. This will cover almost all of the critical midrange.

There are many 4" midranges (I rememebr using a Vifa 10cm midrange that was usable over 5 octaves from 250Hz to 5kHz in the 80s. A few months later Theil used the same midrange in their CS3.5 or some speaker like that) that can cover the 300-5k rnage but none that I know of designed specifically for the harsh enviroment in the car (in India we have added heat and humidity).
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Old 1st October 2009, 23:31   #34
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
option 1.
get components where the mid can go as low as 250-300Hz/12db safely.

option 2.
get amps that have HPF and LPF as high as 500Hz/12db atleast (700Hz is prefered)

option 3.
use the bass blocker and live with the limitations of the shallow but wide suck out in the 300-750Hz region.

I have listed the options in my order of preference. Obviously option 1 is the most expensive...and option 3 is the cheapest espeicalliy if you already have all the amps and speaker components.

edit: actually a new HU might be cheaper than components where the mid can go as low as 300Hz like the Legatia from Hybrid.
Would just like to add, Option 1 will definitely work out better as HU with 3 way xover plus TA will help in geting better imaging and soundstage.

Legatia L3 from Hybrid can go down to 160hz at 24db slope or you can play them at 250hz at 12db and can be crossed as high as 6000hz at 12db. One thing about them I have heard is they tend to play mids kinda brighter and they are better off in an enclosure.

Mi10@
1. Another option you could consider is getting a sound processor like Audio control DQX, RFsixty.2, or even from Alpine.

2. You can get the Point source speakers such as 4" Morel Integra Ovation", these come with passive xover. They can run active too with 75+75 RMS. Plus they can be crossed down to 100hz at 18 or 24db or cross them at 200hz 12db or so and can handle all the high frequencies. Below which you could get a strong midbass driver something like Peerless SLS6, that can play down from 50hz with great authority.

There are many options that one can play with. Run the 3 way speakers Active through the HU and the sub through the amp xover, run 2 way comp passive for mids and highs and midbass and sub through active xover from HU or sound processor.

Most amps don't give much crossover option plus some of them have just 12db slope, whereas in some cases 18 or 24db slope is always preferred.
There are few dome midrange drivers available from cadence, Dayton Audio, Vifa, Tang Band that you can check out. They are available in 2 or 3" size.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 10:50   #35
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HI Praveen,

I think you should upgrade your HU first before anything else, bcos even if you change your speakers now, They will not sound their best with that pio5050. You need a good clean source, and a good HU makes a big difference !

I suggest you save up and get something like the pio P99rs or P90+processor ! Then you will have 4 pre-outs ! hi,mid,low,sub ! !Perfect for your 3-way setup !

Cheers !

Last edited by vibhu_f430 : 2nd October 2009 at 10:54.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 12:40   #36
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... Most amps don't give much crossover option plus some of them have just 12db slope, whereas in some cases 18 or 24db slope is always preferred. ...
Intriguing! Why so?
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Old 3rd October 2009, 00:08   #37
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Would just like to add, Option 1 will definitely work out better as HU with 3 way xover plus TA will help in geting better imaging and soundstage.

Legatia L3 from Hybrid

1. Another option you could consider is getting a sound processor like Audio control DQX, RFsixty.2, or even from Alpine.

2. You can get the Point source speakers such as 4" Morel Integra Ovation", these come with passive xover.

Most amps don't give much crossover option plus some of them have just 12db slope, whereas in some cases 18 or 24db slope is always preferred.
Invisible, we have already ascertained that getting a new HU like the 9887 would be the cheapest option.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Intriguing! Why so?
6db: low slope. due to large difference in woofer-ear and tweeter-ear distances the shallow slope will allow some degree of comb filter effect.

12db: adequate for most drivers except very fragile tweeters.

18db: most commonly used and the first slope I try. the 90 deg phase shift also helps align the tweeter if the woofer is near the knee and the tweeter near the OVRM

24db: too much slope and ringing besides the degree of phase shift does not help.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 00:40   #38
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
6db: low slope. due to large difference in woofer-ear and tweeter-ear distances the shallow slope will allow some degree of comb filter effect.

12db: adequate for most drivers except very fragile tweeters.

18db: most commonly used and the first slope I try. the 90 deg phase shift also helps align the tweeter if the woofer is near the knee and the tweeter near the OVRM

24db: too much slope and ringing besides the degree of phase shift does not help.
Another one of gems from you, Navin. I'd certainly like to see all these dispersed gems in hundreds of threads to be collected in one single thread for audio enthusiasts. Maybe I'll start this effort soon.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 02:49   #39
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Intriguing! Why so?
I meant in context to going active. Active xover are always preferred in terms of various xover points and slopes.
For instance a 6 db octave, an Octave is half or double of given frequency.
A 6db octave would result in 75% reduction at a given xover point where some amount of freq from the midbass would be played by the tweeter if it's HP.
Same way a 12db would result in around 93% reduction, 18db octave slope would result in 98.4% reduction and 24db would result in 99.4% reduction.
So for instance if a given tweeter has an FS of 900, can play freq range above 1800hz. In that case either one play the tweeter at 2000 or 2200 hz provided a 18db or 24 db slope is used or one can play it at 3200hz at 6db with some mids be played which would fade off one's it reached close to 1800hz.
Also, every octave slope results in a phase shift. Which would mean a 6db would result in 90deg shift, 12db with 180deg, 18db with 270deg and 24db will be 360deg. In case of 12db one would have to reverse the polarity of the driver where as in 24db the phase shift is twice which is 180+180 in which case it would have a steep roll-off and one would not require to reverse the polarity.

The way I see it if one wants to use the driver close to it freq limit it's better of to have 18db or 24db octave slope. If blending the the midbass and tweeter one could use 12db or even 6db at higher xover point which would allow some freq from the midbass to enter the tweeter. This is better option if the tweeter are set far off or more 6-8inches from the midbass. Also, the PLD between the woofer and tweeter could help deciding this factor.
It also depends the location of the drivers midbass to mids to tweeter. If the slope is calculated correctly it may improve on the imaging part depending on the mounting location of the drivers.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 08:56   #40
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
Navin ji, wont a HU which can give him a 3 way settings for crossover et all be a good option?

Something like an Alpine 9887/ Pioneer P80RS / Clarion DXZ785US
none of those will work with the settings he requires - all those are three way headunits but he requires a three way front stage and a subwoofer - so a 4 way crossover is required

so you may think that he could use the sub channels for the sub and then the mid channels to bandpass the midbass and then use the tweeter channels to just highpass at a lower point and use the passive crossover to filter between midrange and tweeter BUT you cannot do that because for most passives they are designed in a way that if nothing is plugged into any of the particular outputs it will cause a dead short there which will over time eventually cause the crossover and hence the speakers to eventually fail sooner rather than later. So its not worth going this route unless you have the knowhow to open the crossover and modify it or even better to build your own crossover network for the remaining drivers with the required L-pads for attenuated levels that will be required to give you a reasonably flattish response

you could use a processor like an Alpine C701 or even an audison bit one which will give you the required 4 way crossover plus individual channel time alignment as well as good EQ functionality, and these will work with almost any headunit under the sun but thats an expensive route to take, the advantage is that these could even make your OEM stock headunit sound brilliant

if you did not want the added complexity of an offboard processor, this is the suggestion i would take seriously into consideration

Quote:
I suggest you save up and get something like the pio P99rs or P90+processor ! Then you will have 4 pre-outs ! hi,mid,low,sub ! !Perfect for your 3-way setup !
because the P99RS (europe) {alternatively called the DEHP01 in Japan but that also gives you an offboard 50 x 6 amplifier since its a dead head} is basically the future of headunits - it has 4 x 24 bit DACS and 32 band EQ as well as individual channel T/A and also a 4 way crossover built in but it definitely costs more than an alpine 9887 with C701 and RUX701 controller all combined

P90+ processor doesnt have a lot of the mod cons like Mp3 playback or ipod and iphone control as well as built in bluetooth like the P99RS has - so you will be stuck playing only original cd's whilst with the P99RS there is no limit to the source because of the connectivity available as well as all the built in gadgets to increase connectivity

then the problem is that the P99Rs or the DEH-P01 are so new that availability is a concern - so you would need a contact in Europe or Japan to source you one and then final pricing depends on your countries taxation policies for example here in South Africa i would need to add in shipping as well as a handling charge and then import duties and then 14% VAT all payable when i collect a unit like this at the post office if its shipped to me - could all land up adding some substantial amount to an already fancy price if India is the same

if you really want to save up then the source wont matter much cos the audison bit one for example has an ADC whch converts back to digital then uses its own DAC's for final processing, or if your headunit has a digital output then the bit one also has optical as well coax digital inputs, and it costs around 1/3rd of the pioneer P99RS (at least here in South Africa it does)

unfortunately all expensive options - cheapest option IMHO would be to sell your speaker set and get something thats less complex to set up in active mode ie a mid, tweeter and sub only. In that instance a 9887 or pioneer P88 or something of that nature will provide perfect control as well as decent sound quality, as long as you have enough amp channels (two for tweeters - two for mids - and whatever you need for sub/s)
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Old 3rd October 2009, 11:28   #41
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Also, every octave slope results in a phase shift. Which would mean a 6db would result in 90deg shift, 12db with 180deg, 18db with 270deg and 24db will be 360deg. In case of 12db one would have to reverse the polarity of the driver where as in 24db the phase shift is twice which is 180+180 in which case it would have a steep roll-off and one would not require to reverse the polarity. ..It also depends the location of the drivers midbass to mids to tweeter. If the slope is calculated correctly it may improve on the imaging part depending on the mounting location of the drivers.
90% of the components sold are 2 way. 90% of the installs are where the woofer is at knee level and the tweeter is somewhere near the OVRM. For these 90% of the cases a 18db/oct slope with it's 270deg phase shift (+270deg is also -90 deg) works really nicely in aligning the tweeter to the woofer.

Specialised cases that follow more rigid rules and are built to higher expecations may require a more sophisticated approach.

What bothers us is often the following.

Most 2 way systems have the XO around 3kHz. Now to protect the tweeter (such system sue tweeter with fs of about 1500Hz) they designer uses a 12db XO with a high Q. This high Q causes an overshoot and some ringing in and around the 3khz region. Unfortunately the human ear is very very sensitive to this. THe very first curve (if we are looking at the ear from the tympaanic cavity) of the ear's cochlear is senstive to about 16kHz but the peak of this curve happens in the 3-6kHz octave. Just where the XO is doing crazy things.

This is the same problem facing Class D amps today. The filter the designers use is designed to have a sharp roll off and this filter causes a huge peak and valley (like to nothc filters inverted to each other) around this 3-6K region. if the designers of Class D amps stopped chasing the 0.00001% distortion (hey 0.1% is good enough aint it) they would not need such steep filters and these peaks and valleys would never be there in the first place. IN any case the power supplies of these amps seem to be gettting more sophisticated and bigger and the good Class D amps are not a whole lot much smaller than Class AB amps today.

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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
none of those will work with the settings he requires - all those are three way headunits but he requires a three way front stage and a subwoofer - so a 4 way crossover is required
Mi10 is willing to go passive between the mid and tweeter. So 3 way is fine.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 13:13   #42
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Was just wondering, if going fully active with a 2 way compos makes more sense and less hassle free
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Old 3rd October 2009, 14:05   #43
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Was just wondering, if going fully active with a 2 way compos makes more sense and less hassle free
Surely 2 way will be more easier to tune. Setting the xover point for them will be easier compared to 3 way but than again a 3 way has some advantages if you are willing to make changes and modification in respect to mounting locations. 3 way will have dedicated midrange which would give out more open vocals and a dedicated midbass can give out more stronger midbass as compared to 2 way. But in some cases if the 2 way if installed well, can deliver or sound as good as 3 way.

You could also have a HU which has a 3 way active xover run the mids and tweets under Highs seting with further being separation through passive xover, have the midbass under Mid setting and sub with sub setting. Apart from this what drivers you use along with the placement would be more imp.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 14:17   #44
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Originally Posted by vibhu_430
They will not sound their best with that pio5050.
This is the gospel truth.
The difference in sound quality was massive when I moved to the Clarion DXZ785USB from the Pio 5050.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 15:55   #45
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This is the gospel truth.
The difference in sound quality was massive when I moved to the Clarion DXZ785USB from the Pio 5050.

Not really Nitrous, the difference was felt because you moved from an average HU to a better HU and your install was done by a professional.

Most HUs at the lower end do not offer as much features as the high end ones.

Having said that - It does not mean that all high end HUs are good too.

Having a good installer tune your setup is very important too.

I've seen too many setups where the settings have been funny and the guy has spent a fortune
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