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Old 11th January 2011, 22:40   #226
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

1.Dealership: The dealers play a vital role in influencing the customers decission to buy some CV. The major problem with AL dealer(TVS) is that they work like govt departments...i.e if customer wants to buy an AL let him come. But dealers of TML, goes to the customer and see that the customer buys a TML product.

2. The cummins engine (fitted on TML buses) vibrates more because the idle rpm of the engine would be kept low, usually 500, while the recommended is 800rpm. This is an usual practice observed among STU and they do this for mileage concerns. But the overall vibraton of engine is very less for AL, when compared to TML 'C' buses.

3. I too agree that AL has to tighten the quality control on fully buses supplied by them. AL has to make sure that the fit & finish are of equal qualiy, who ever builts it. Moreover, AL is giving more room for customisation than any other manuf. in india at the cost of their brand value, while TML , Volvo etc bring standardization. Hope AL realize this at the earliest.
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Old 12th January 2011, 01:13   #227
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@greatmana2000
Do you mean to say that companies are not supposed to look at ways to improve their revenue, because I though that they did. And if you look Tata has practically created ACGL which today builds thoudsands of buses a year and also started what will be world's largest bus building facility in Dharwad.
Tata is part hype ..always remember that . It is like the Nano which has got 2 lakh plus bookings but till date not much has been sold . Same is the case with the bus body . May be you will not agree immediately , but that is what i expect and would be the outcome as well .

And anyway, with the way the Tata is doing its job of building buses without the "specialists", in the past few years the customers seems to be liking the "bride" Tata has to offer.

I dont really think so . Most of the STC prefer AL over Tata and TATA has more or less been a big time supplier under JNNURM scheme and nothing else . I have seen in the past Tamil nadu where the STC buys TATA buses and replaces the engine and gearbox to AL .

Also I dont think in the CV market, the dealership makes as much a part of the buying decision instead of the economics of the product. And if it did cause such a big problem, I dont think there will be a dearth of people wanting to take up a Leyland dealership and thus making way for non-TVS dealers.

There are a lot many people willing to take up AL dealerships . The problem is TVS is firmly rooted into AL as they are major suppliers of components for AL and I think TVS does own some stake in AL .TVS supplies wheels , brakes , suspension components etc . I dont really know , but I think AL does not want to lose its "social wife" . Where ever TVS is there believe me most of the big time companies like Fiat have even failed.

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3. I too agree that AL has to tighten the quality control on fully buses supplied by them. AL has to make sure that the fit & finish are of equal qualiy, who ever builts it. Moreover, AL is giving more room for customisation than any other manuf. in india at the cost of their brand value, while TML , Volvo etc bring standardization. Hope AL realize this at the earliest.
I disagree on this point . The reason is apart from the intercity buses the interstate , town buses , city buses moffusil buses have different needs and different body types . A moffusil bus needs more cargo , roof ladder a DVD player ( i know it is trivial , but still ) .A city bus needs more seating capacity , wider doors for exit , entrance .Town buses are basically run down city , moffusil buses etc .

Tata will not be able to offer such a wide variety of buses as it involves customisation of the buses which will not be possible for small orders other than govt orders or for export .

Today a SMK ,veera , azad , sutlej body is very much preffered by the end customer than a fully built TATA bus . Proof is in the order books of SMK where they take atleast 2-3 months to deliever the fully built bus ,whereas TATA has ready stock of its Marcopolo buses . Even an IRIZAR bus body is rated lower than the SMK body in the OMNI bus circles .

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Old 12th January 2011, 08:42   #228
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I disagree on this point . The reason is apart from the intercity buses the interstate , town buses , city buses moffusil buses have different needs and different body types . A moffusil bus needs more cargo , roof ladder a DVD player ( i know it is trivial , but still ) .A city bus needs more seating capacity , wider doors for exit , entrance .Town buses are basically run down city , moffusil buses etc.
When we say standardization, its not that a city bus, moffusil or an intercity looks alike! There are lots of design factors & parts that can be standardized. This will help to ensure better & longstanding aftermarket support. The avaliablilty of body parts etc has to be ensured by respective manuf. Otherwise, for example, STU will start rebuilding even Volvo just like they do on AL & Tatas! Moreover, an AL RESLF fullybuilt bus should have the same design be it in Kerala or Jaipur. The number of seats, spacing etc all are governed by AIS norms (applicable to JnNURM also) be it AL, TML or VECV. This standardization is possible, as Volvo is doing the same now for both STU & Private segment be it Intercity or B7RLE!

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Tata will not be able to offer such a wide variety of buses as it involves customisation of the buses which will not be possible for small orders other than govt orders or for export.
TML can also offer any variety of buses. They have been doing that.

Last edited by FlyingSpur : 13th January 2011 at 10:55. Reason: Poor readability. Please use quote/multi-quote instead of using BOLD and ITALICS everywhere.
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Old 12th January 2011, 08:48   #229
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@greatmana2000

Yes Tata Motors is a part hype 15billion dollar annual revenue, 4th largest CV maker of the world. Most definitely all that is hype and nothing else.

If you are referring to the fact that Dharwad facility being one of the world's largest bus building facility, it is not yet at full capacity yet though. Where do you think all those MarcoPolo buses which are roaming all over the country starting from 709s, 1109s, the FE MTC buses, the RE BMTC AC and non AC buses, the thousands of buses which colour the Delhi streets green and red are made. Remember unlike ALL Tata buses are not built all over the country at different facilities.

And as for not offering the ability to customise every nut and bolt in a bus, I think it would be better for ALL to realise the value and lower costs of standardisation. In the future only the really large body builders who build thousands of buses a year will survive because they will have some hope of bringing about lower costs. Already the fully built segment is showing signs of eating into the custom built segment. The custom built mini bus and city bus segment has almost completely vanished already. And it is in these segments that ALL has lost out big time.

@Ashley

Actually I do happen to know the innards of the Tata Marcopolo, and according to me there is nothing that forces those design elements to be incorporated. Which is why I asked you the question.

As for the issued pointed out by the driver's I still hold my view point that it is just a matter of having got adjusted to driving one kind of bus.

And I think a designer does use other stuff to incorporate some angles other than 90degrees and also some curves into a design.

As for the 2300:875 ratio, is this the ratio of actual buses on road or just the ratio of the order. I ask because I definitely didnt see Leyland buses on the road in that ratio.

Yes, Tata's CV sales department does a very commendable job indeed, so commendable that the factories are rarely able to keep upto the demand the sales department is able to create. But I wouldn't give much of that credit to the dealers, but directly to the sales guys. If the TVS guys are such a big issue, I am sure there is a pretty simple solution to the problem.
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Old 12th January 2011, 10:55   #230
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

This thread is turning into an AL vs. Tata fanboys war. Lets just pause for a bit and accept that there are criterion where Tata excels over AL and vice-versa and those where both lag behind the benchmark Volvos.

P.S. - There is a thread specifically for the AL vs. Tata discussion.

Last edited by smashnerd : 12th January 2011 at 10:59.
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Old 12th January 2011, 11:26   #231
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Default Re: The Indian Bus Scene (Discuss new launches and market info here)

Both are good in their own areas. Tatas take the cake as far as passenger comfort and build quality of the body is concerned. AL trumps them in engine life, ownership costs and lugging ability. So there is a trade off whichever one you pick. I'd say the Tata buses are more passenger friendly while the AL buses are more owner friendly.
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Old 12th January 2011, 14:28   #232
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Originally Posted by Transsenger View Post
2. The cummins engine (fitted on TML buses) vibrates more because the idle rpm of the engine would be kept low, usually 500, while the recommended is 800rpm. This is an usual practice observed among STU and they do this for mileage concerns.
No way. It cannot be maintained as low as 500 rpm and more over ever as you said it varies from 700 to 800. More info on this the BSIII will take care all of your idle speed. If you are keen enough you can really understand the hormonics of vibration when it is made at a lower RPM and because of actual problem.
If its in low rpm the vibration will be cyclic and not continuous where as it will be other way. what we are feeling in TML is a continuous vibratrion at idle.
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.... AL is giving more room for customisation than any other manuf. in india at the cost of their brand value, while TML , Volvo etc bring standardization. Hope AL realize this at the earliest.
Very Valid point

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I dont really think so . Most of the STC prefer AL over Tata and TATA has more or less been a big time supplier under JNNURM scheme and nothing else . I have seen in the past Tamil nadu where the STC buys TATA buses and replaces the engine and gearbox to AL .
wrt to ACGL, their starbuses and Globuses have never seen big takers except for JNnurm. They found themselves comfortable with export market only

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... The avaliablilty of body parts etc has to be ensured by respective manuf. Otherwise, for example, STU will start rebuilding even Volvo just like they do on AL & Tatas!
No STU wants a replaceable body part from manufacturer. Even private fleet owners also in the same league.
Eg : KPN Volvos. Its not worthy for them to wait for the panels from the manufacturer and paying a bomb to that

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Moreover, an AL RESLF fullybuilt bus should have the same design be it in Kerala or Jaipur. The number of seats, spacing etc all are governed by AIS norms (applicable to JnNURM also) be it AL, TML or VECV. This standardization is possible, as Volvo is doing the same now for both STU & Private segment be it Intercity or B7RLE!
It need not be common. Though they are governed by AIS there are lot of room for STU's to play with that. we need not compare the Volvos as they are away from comparision providing so much stuff which are even not listed in the norms. Also plz understand the norms will govern mostly about door width and seating capacity.

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Yes Tata Motors is a part hype 15billion dollar annual revenue, 4th largest CV maker of the world. Most definitely all that is hype and nothing else.
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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
If you are referring to the fact that Dharwad facility being one of the world's largest bus building facility, it is not yet at full capacity yet though.
No way they will reach. Even they reach it is a mix up all bus range from 16 seaters to 57 seaters.

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..... The custom built mini bus and city bus segment has almost completely vanished already. And it is in these segments that ALL has lost out big time.
Just to know.
Any segment or any area where AL have lost out.
Any statistics let me know.

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As for the issued pointed out by the driver's I still hold my view point that it is just a matter of having got adjusted to driving one kind of bus.
so if he is exopsed to better drving envirionment and is he complaining about the un confortable situatation should we tell him that don worry it will get used to.
It is only because of the concerns (almost resistance to drive TML buses) raised by drivers the very next order from MTC 2850 buses were given back to ALL. Out of which there are 150 BS IV buses - A first of its kind.

Ashok Leyland - In the Media


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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
As for the 2300:875 ratio, is this the ratio of actual buses on road or just the ratio of the order. I ask because I definitely didnt see Leyland buses on the road in that ratio.
That does not stop from AL being plying in road.
I am not sure about the deopts - But quite a lot of them near I ahve seen near pallika bazzar, Old delhi areas.

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Old 12th January 2011, 15:09   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
@greatmana2000

Yes Tata Motors is a part hype 15billion dollar annual revenue, 4th largest CV maker of the world. Most definitely all that is hype and nothing else.

If you are referring to the fact that Dharwad facility being one of the world's largest bus building facility, it is not yet at full capacity yet though. Where do you think all those MarcoPolo buses which are roaming all over the country starting from 709s, 1109s, the FE MTC buses, the RE BMTC AC and non AC buses, the thousands of buses which colour the Delhi streets green and red are made. Remember unlike ALL Tata buses are not built all over the country at different facilities.

And as for not offering the ability to customise every nut and bolt in a bus, I think it would be better for ALL to realise the value and lower costs of standardisation. In the future only the really large body builders who build thousands of buses a year will survive because they will have some hope of bringing about lower costs. Already the fully built segment is showing signs of eating into the custom built segment. The custom built mini bus and city bus segment has almost completely vanished already. And it is in these segments that ALL has lost out big time.

@Ashley

Actually I do happen to know the innards of the Tata Marcopolo, and according to me there is nothing that forces those design elements to be incorporated. Which is why I asked you the question.

As for the issued pointed out by the driver's I still hold my view point that it is just a matter of having got adjusted to driving one kind of bus.

And I think a designer does use other stuff to incorporate some angles other than 90degrees and also some curves into a design.

As for the 2300:875 ratio, is this the ratio of actual buses on road or just the ratio of the order. I ask because I definitely didnt see Leyland buses on the road in that ratio.

Yes, Tata's CV sales department does a very commendable job indeed, so commendable that the factories are rarely able to keep upto the demand the sales department is able to create. But I wouldn't give much of that credit to the dealers, but directly to the sales guys. If the TVS guys are such a big issue, I am sure there is a pretty simple solution to the problem.
Would like to add couple of points...

1--> City buses procured by State Corporations are made as per JNNURM Body specifications. But each individual corporations can modify the same as per their requirements. These are done without violating base guidelines of JNNURM Specs.

2--> TML usually have standard design between its models. This be basically done to keep costs low and common parts means less inventory to be kept in the longer run. This helps even in servicing or accidental repairs.

3--> Usual feedback is that TML resists in changing its design( not much of customization) changes as per customers. This is because of the FACT that TML goes in for MASS Production of Buses (Comparable to Volvo India) rather that buses built by different suppliers and in house by competitors.

4--> Also any modifications/ customizations which needs a change in the structural components od a bus will call for re-certification at CIRT.{Still remember ACGL having a tough time while making a prototype for BMTC SLF bus. BMTC wanted the front wind shield. internal lightings and couple of other things to be similar to the ones offered in ALL....The reason cited by BMTC is that majority of its Fleet is ALL, so it will be easier for them to keep the stocks of ALL windshield..)Not sure whether this was done to keep TML away. ACGL did make a Proto as per this spec, but finally it was scrapped...TML though made it way into BMTC by Marcopolo designed/built buses
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Old 12th January 2011, 15:39   #234
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Actually a heavy duty diesel engine like the 5.9L cummins engine will develop enough power to idle as low as 500rpm, though I have no idea about any such practice of reducing idle speed in the buses. Anyway even if such a practice exists it is only on the older buses as modern ECU controlled buses will need ECU modification to change the idle speed.

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Old 12th January 2011, 17:05   #235
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remember ACGL having a tough time while making a prototype for BMTC SLF bus. BMTC wanted the front wind shield. internal lightings and couple of other things to be similar to the ones offered in ALL....The reason cited by BMTC is that majority of its Fleet is ALL, so it will be easier for them to keep the stocks of ALL windshield..)Not sure whether this was done to keep TML away. ACGL did make a Proto as per this spec, but finally it was scrapped...TML though made it way into BMTC by Marcopolo designed/built buses
There is a small correction here. BMTC designed a bus in their own workshops, which look very similar to the Volvo. Their "Suvarna" brand of buses were built in this design. The windshield is of the same size and design as the Volvo 8400s - they procure the windshields from a local manufacturer.

Their ALL buses are based on the old Prakash P5000 design - this design is no more being built. All the new BMTC buses are built on the "home designed" Volvo Clone design.

It is that BMTC was the ACGL built TATA buses to have the windshield design exactly as the buses supplied by other suppliers (which includes KMS - they made bodies on TATA as well Leyland chassis)

The image below will help you understand what I mean: (This is among the first in-house designed Suvarna buses. The windshield design is very similar to the Volvo 8400s).
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Old 12th January 2011, 21:47   #236
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No way. It cannot be maintained as low as 500 rpm and more over ever as you said it varies from 700 to 800. More info on this the BSIII will take care all of your idle speed. If you are keen enough you can really understand the hormonics of vibration when it is made at a lower RPM and because of actual problem.

If its in low rpm the vibration will be cyclic and not continuous where as it will be other way. what we are feeling in TML is a continuous vibratrion at idle.
The engine idle rpm can be set 500-600 in normal TML buses with both 697 (bS2) & Cummins (upto 180 hp bs3) engine. But the recommeded setting for Cummins is 800-850rpm. Usually the vibration is very high when the bus (TML 1512) is idle and it dies down as the bus starts moving. I don't know about the harmonics, but this can be checked out on TML '1512, 1612, 1616 c' bus. If we slowely incerease the rpm of an idlling engine by carefully pressing the acclerator pedal, there will be drastic difference in the vibration.

Quote:
wrt to ACGL, their starbuses and Globuses have never seen big takers except for JNnurm. They found themselves comfortable with export market only.
TML was able to grab a great share of LCV/ICV bus market with their Starbus. And TML was able to sell a significant numbers of Globus (based on LPO1616), in spite of it being the first of kind from TML in that segment.

Quote:
No STU wants a replaceable body part from manufacturer. Even private fleet owners also in the same league.

Eg : KPN Volvos. Its not worthy for them to wait for the panels from the manufacturer and paying a bomb to that
That's truely the AL line of thinking! When you allow the STU to modify the buses, may be after a year or so, an AL ULE would not look like AL ULE! I will blame AL because, they were not ready to take the pain to supply & manage body parts in the aftermarket...and they felt, let the customer have this headache, we will supply only chassis!

When our Govt/STU are going for Volvos & MBs with public money, why shouldn't AL/TML think of setting their own standards about their products. I say this because, the Volvo or MB don't bother about the peoples money, they are concerned only about the well being of themselfs & their products in the market. And that why i said, the aftermarket support (of AL/TML) should be enhanced...so that be it STU/Pvt, they need not wait for a panel to come from the Manufacturer.

Quote:
It need not be common. Though they are governed by AIS there are lot of room for STU's to play with that. we need not compare the Volvos as they are away from comparision providing so much stuff which are even not listed in the norms. Also plz understand the norms will govern mostly about door width and seating capacity.
Ok no Volvo. But take TMML. A Tata marcopolo nonA/c RESLF supplied to UPSRTC, BMTC, ASTC, OSRTC etc are the same, except for some customization in colour, arrangement/number of seats, and other accessories. The basic design & structure(body) remains the same. But for AL, the RESLF supplied to KeSRTC is not the same as the one supplied at Jaipur. The initial lot supplied to KeSRTC differs from ones supplied now! Imagine, how would it look like, if Maruti swift supplied in Delhi differ from the one in Chennai? ...and that's why i say AL needs to bring more standardization.

Quote:
That does not stop from AL being plying in road.
I am not sure about the deopts - But quite a lot of them near I ahve seen near pallika bazzar, Old delhi areas.
I have seen large numbers of AL ULE DTC buses in Dwaraka depot.

@ Julupani...AFAIK at present normal BS3 TML buses with Cummins engine upto 1618 does not have any ECU in them. Only IsBE series are having ECU. Even in ECU controlled systems, idle speed can be reset by dealer workshops.

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Old 12th January 2011, 22:06   #237
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Well, I dont deny spotting Leyland ULEs, but what I am saying is may be they are lagging behind in the delivery, considering that the ratio of the buses presently on the roads, doesnt seem to be the same as the order ratio.

As for the BS3 engine, most bus engines today supplied under JNNURM are ECU controlled, at least the 1618 models. The 5.9L engine is a special B-series engine from Cummins for TML and is made in both ECU and non ECU controlled versions. Only recently has this been introduced in the non-ECU BSIII version. Even the present 697 engines have ECU controls on the higher hp versions. I think only the 130 and 120hp models are available without an ECU.

Of course, at the dealership, who have the requisite connector and software, you can modify the ECU a good deal, including the idle speed.
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Old 12th January 2011, 22:40   #238
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TML was able to grab a great share of LCV/ICV bus market with their Starbus. And TML was able to sell a significant numbers of Globus (based on LPO1616), in spite of it being the first of kind from TML in that segment.[/b]
I hope we were speaking about heavy buses.
More over any details about significant numbers of LPO 1616 from STU's other than KeSRTC.( I also understand even there, no repeat orders)


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@ Julupani...AFAIK at present normal BS3 TML buses with Cummins engine upto 1618 does not have any ECU in them. Only IsBE series are having ECU. Even in ECU controlled systems, idle speed can be reset by dealer workshops.
Are you sure in this part.
So there is no EDC and controlled only mechanically?
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Old 13th January 2011, 00:40   #239
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There is a small correction here. BMTC designed a bus in their own workshops, which look very similar to the Volvo. Their "Suvarna" brand of buses were built in this design. The windshield is of the same size and design as the Volvo 8400s - they procure the windshields from a local manufacturer.

Their ALL buses are based on the old Prakash P5000 design - this design is no more being built. All the new BMTC buses are built on the "home designed" Volvo Clone design.

It is that BMTC was the ACGL built TATA buses to have the windshield design exactly as the buses supplied by other suppliers (which includes KMS - they made bodies on TATA as well Leyland chassis)

The image below will help you understand what I mean: (This is among the first in-house designed Suvarna buses. The windshield design is very similar to the Volvo 8400s).
@Binai...Infact the Prototype of JNNURM SLE bus given to BMTC was a modified version of the Normal City Bus Supplied by ACGL to PMMPML...Fixing the BMTC specified front windshield to that bus design looked really awkward..Infact 40 percentage of the windscreen was wasted because the Radiator Height of TML design. Hope I am clearer this time.

I believe the AL LF buses supplied to KERSTC under the JNNURM Scheme were built on the design provided by Beiqi Foton of China.
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Old 13th January 2011, 01:07   #240
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Ok no Volvo. But take TMML. A Tata marcopolo nonA/c RESLF supplied to UPSRTC, BMTC, ASTC, OSRTC etc are the same, except for some customization in colour, arrangement/number of seats, and other accessories. The basic design & structure(body) remains the same. But for AL, the RESLF supplied to KeSRTC is not the same as the one supplied at Jaipur. The initial lot supplied to KeSRTC differs from ones supplied now! Imagine, how would it look like, if Maruti swift supplied in Delhi differ from the one in Chennai? ...and that's why i say AL needs to bring more standardization.
The reason why ALL is more bothered about the chaisis is because ,most of the STC have their own bus body building facilities . Be it Kesrtc , SETC , TNSTC , APSRTC . Only under the Jnnurm scheme did the STC buy fully built buses . Even today the interstate buses from TN are built by their own respective transport corporations . If a bus meets with an accident they do not go to AL or TATA to get a windshield . Whatever windshield is there they just fix it . If the windshiled is of a different size or dimension they just cut a new sheet and just pop rivet it .
Similarly if an engine has to be rebored then the whole bus is not grounded . They just remove the engine and any engine which was reconditioned is fitted . Everything is done in house and parts are procured by tenders .
Earlier , TN buses used to come with rexine shutters for windows where you needed to fold up the rexine ,where as STC from other states used to have glass . So depending on climatic conditions , the buses are built according to individual state corp needs rather than buy an off the shelf product.

Note from Team-BHP Support Staff : Post edited. Please use quote and multi-quote instead of using BOLD and ITALICS everywhere.

Last edited by FlyingSpur : 13th January 2011 at 11:01. Reason: See Moderator note in post.
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