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Old 25th May 2017, 14:02   #451
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by petrolhead_chn View Post
I feel there should be a different approach from the manufacturer towards such 'failure models'.


Be it failure or discontinued models, I feel the manufacturer has to have a revamped approach which just might reassure the buyer and ease the decision making process. Of course the manufacturer has to make profit and that will eventually come in with more sales.

MODS: Please merge this topic if there is an ongoing discussion on Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models. I couldn't find one and started a new topic. Thank you!


You cannot flog a dead horse and there is nothing called a risk free purchase

Failing manufacturers - you can spot them a mile away based on sagging sales. You are compensated when buying from them with rock bottom discounts. People who bought such models when sales were good will face depreciation but they would have got some decent service out of the vehicle.

If the manufacturer is quitting- i doubt they give two hoots about brand image. Chevrolet have exited Europe and other key markets and will not be back for a couple of generations.

Failure Models
- no one will admit failure but will act according. Take the Zen Estilo - it was discounted to attract people whoe merely wanted an appliance not an emotional statement, service was assured. Brand value is intact, the car can be sold on. There was proper support for the cars life.

Try doing that with a Uno, Palio, Astra or Corsa - most of these cars are going out of service due to lack of parts and support.
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Old 25th May 2017, 14:47   #452
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
there is nothing called a risk free purchase
Agreed! It is just that buyers shouldn't be going for known riskier purchases.

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
You are compensated when buying from them with rock bottom discounts. People who bought such models when sales were good will face depreciation but they would have got some decent service out of the vehicle.
If we are given to choose between compensation and assurance, most of us would go for assurance I suppose. People with fat purses may probably go in for such compensation, get the maximum out of it and then pass on the car at throwaway prices. It is time manufacturer provides 'assurance' rather than compensation.

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no one will admit failure but will act according.
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Try doing that with a Uno, Palio, Astra or Corsa - most of these cars are going out of service due to lack of parts and support.
Exactly! Discontinued cars are still being sold and bought comfortably in most of the countries abroad due to continuous support from its manufacturers. This demonstrates that those manufacturers intend to keep their creation living on unlike our manufacturers here.

How much would an 1990/2005 MS 800 earn at an exchange at the dealer though the seller has it in decent condition? The dealer may not even be willing enough to exchange it. Such is the attitude of manufacturer in keeping their own creation living on and this is the change I'd like to see in manufacturer.

As you rightly said we can't flog a dead horse But it sure would be worth giving a shot and turn the attitude around.
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Old 25th May 2017, 16:58   #453
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

Last year when my BOL got his new car in Tokyo, I happened to be there visiting them.

So he got this deal from Nissan while getting his X-Trail, he got a discounted rate with an option to return the vehicle after 5 years to the manufacturer or pay up some amount then to retain the vehicle. It works as leasing the vehicle from manufacturer itself.

I believe luxury car makers in India do have such options (as I remember I saw some add of Mercedes sometime back on newspaper). But such arrangements are yet to see for mass market cars. If such system followed here, it could be a win win situation for both manufactures and buyers.
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Old 25th May 2017, 17:25   #454
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

@petrolrider - that sounds like a great deal. It indeed is a win-win situation. Your BOL must have had that 'feel-good' factor not worrying about selling the car or losing the resale value as long as they are taking it back in reasonable terms though it works out like a lease. But the initiative to give a choice to the customer is genuine and customer-friendly.

That is exactly what manufacturers in India need to think about. The attitude of manufacturers in India is very different and lethargic who feel people might buy anything that comes with a discount irrespective of long term benefits and service qualities.

I wonder why manufacturers display varying levels of attitude, behaviour, responsiveness and service quality in different geographies? Isn't it supposed to be uniform throughout their organisation? Phew!!!

Last edited by petrolhead_chn : 25th May 2017 at 17:29.
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Old 25th May 2017, 18:40   #455
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

Coming to think of it, all the cars I have owned so far can be classified as failures or sales duds or rarely spotted on the road (relatively speaking). And no, I don't feel stupid or naive nor do I expect any compensation from the manufacturer. That's because resale value has zero weightage in my 'desirable qualities of car' list.

If your love your car but it happens to be a sales dud, then you have no reason to complain - think of the depreciation hit as "exclusivity charges".

Last edited by smartcat : 25th May 2017 at 18:49.
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Old 25th May 2017, 21:44   #456
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

2 out of 3 cars we have owned were duds in the market. So I do have a fair idea on this topic.

- First one was an Opel Corsa. Horrendous support by GM in terms of after sales after Opel shut shop. The car was a gem, well built, strong engine and also reliable, but cost of spares in the grey market was atrocious to say the least. One of the reasons why we never considered the Cruze.

- Second one was a Hyundai Verna VGT 2009. Again a dud in the market. Hyundai launched the Fluidic in 2010 and that did the trick back then. The Verna was the diametrical opposite of the Corsa. The car was hopeless when it came to reliability. But, Hyundai provided adequate support and spare parts were easy to source probably because it shared mechanicals with the i20. ( a popular hatchback then)

We currently have a Jetta (discontinued). It remains to be seen what Volkswagen does to source spares. In theory, these things shouldn't pose a problem as the Jetta is Vw's bread and butter model in the USA and Mexico too.

Would we go for a discontinued model again? It would depend on the manufacturer. If Chevrolet were to give me a huge discount on the Cruze now, even then I wouldn't go for it. However, if Hyundai offers a Verna on a discount, I would be tempted.

It also depends on how long you want to keep the car. We plan to keep the Jetta for 5 years atleast so resale value is not a top priority. However, if I get bored of my cars within 3 years, I would either scrap the deal and wait for the next generation or bargain hard for a good discount.

Sorry for the long post. Again, this is just one of those very interesting topic son the forum.


Regards,
Vishy

Last edited by vishy76 : 25th May 2017 at 21:46.
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Old 25th May 2017, 22:26   #457
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

I feel the biggest worry for any owner of discontinued vehicle or manufacturer is availability of spares. There is no much market pressure on a manufacturer to keep up this, unless mandated and strictly monitored by Government. Unfortunately this is yet to be done in India.

A comprehensive law and proper implementation on consumer rights is much needed for auto sector, at least as has been done for home buyers recently.
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Old 25th May 2017, 23:46   #458
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Coming to think of it, all the cars I have owned so far can be classified as failures or sales duds or rarely spotted on the road (relatively speaking). And no, I don't feel stupid or naive nor do I expect any compensation from the manufacturer. That's because resale value has zero weightage in my 'desirable qualities of car' list.

If your love your car but it happens to be a sales dud, then you have no reason to complain - think of the depreciation hit as "exclusivity charges".
I purchased the old Ford Fiesta 1.6 SXI, the same month, the 'new Ford Fiesta' was launched. At the showroom, I could compare both models , the difference in price being 1.5 to 2.5 lakhs ( as far as I can remember). I had done a lot of research, since it would be my first sedan and I was impressed by reports on the handling of the older car at that price point.
It was a nerve wracking decision to make: buying a model which had already been superseded by the new one, or the new one.
( I keep my cars for at least 7-8 years).
Finally I chose the older one. It had HPS vs electric on the new one, the older model was more spacious internally, leather seating, individual reading lamps for rear passengers, alloy wheels and most important, some car magazine reported that the older one was still more fun to drive.

Mentally, I made up my mind I would get scrap value 10 years down the line and bought it.
Now five and a half years down the line , I do not regret the decision. A smile comes to my face every time I switch on the engine and take off on a long fast drive on early Sunday mornings with its confidence inspiring steering and overall handling.
( For daily short distance driving duties, I use an Eon, ideal for congested traffic and parking in tight spots)
My choice was vindicated when Ford continued to sell it rebadging it as "Classic" , and it outsold the new Fiesta.
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Old 26th May 2017, 08:52   #459
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

I think the approach will vastly vary between a Maruti vs. other manufacturers simply because of the amount of presence they have in the country and financial and brand muscle.

Given the paltry market share that most manufacturers have, cost-benefit analysis probably tells them, there won't be a lot of damage if they stop support. In reality though, they need to put in the most effort!

That being said, I don't think any manufacturer has gone out of the way to placate or make customers of non-successful model less stupid about the purchase.

Look at the Fiat stable, or SCross 1.6 or the forgettable launches from Mahindra. It is business as usual, regardless of how well the product does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
If the manufacturer is quitting- i doubt they give two hoots about brand image. Chevrolet have exited Europe and other key markets and will not be back for a couple of generations.

Failure Models
- no one will admit failure but will act according. Take the Zen Estilo - it was discounted to attract people whoe merely wanted an appliance not an emotional statement, service was assured. Brand value is intact, the car can be sold on. There was proper support for the cars life.

Try doing that with a Uno, Palio, Astra or Corsa - most of these cars are going out of service due to lack of parts and support.
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Originally Posted by petrolhead_chn View Post
Exactly! Discontinued cars are still being sold and bought comfortably in most of the countries abroad due to continuous support from its manufacturers. This demonstrates that those manufacturers intend to keep their creation living on unlike our manufacturers here.
I guess these are different topics? : the OP is talking about failed/discontinued models whereas what happened with Corsa was the manufacturer itself shutting shop.

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Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
2 out of 3 cars we have owned were duds in the market. So I do have a fair idea on this topic.

- First one was an Opel Corsa. Horrendous support by GM in terms of after sales after Opel shut shop. The car was a gem, well built, strong engine and also reliable, but cost of spares in the grey market was atrocious to say the least. One of the reasons why we never considered the Cruze.
Opel quit in what, 2007? We had a Corsa 1.4 and I did not have a problem sourcing parts in Bangalore. Sure, it took time but I got OEM parts within a week. Horribly priced though.

Eg. the clutch assembly was some 30k!

Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th May 2017 at 08:54.
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Old 26th May 2017, 10:59   #460
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Coming to think of it, all the cars I have owned so far can be classified as failures or sales duds or rarely spotted on the road (relatively speaking). And no, I don't feel stupid or naive nor do I expect any compensation from the manufacturer. That's because resale value has zero weightage in my 'desirable qualities of car' list.

If your love your car but it happens to be a sales dud, then you have no reason to complain - think of the depreciation hit as "exclusivity charges".
That is one honest opinion from you smartcat.
However I believe you would agree that not everyone would have the same attitude towards a failed/discontinued models. They may love the car but may back off out of fear - be it resale value, low exchange quotes, spares or even service from the dealers.

BTW I am curious to know the cars you've owned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
Would we go for a discontinued model again? It would depend on the manufacturer.
That is the whole point. The manufacturer has no need to think out of the box. They just need to search their box in their own dump yard, clean it and look into it for ways and methods to give a better automotive experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
Sorry for the long post. Again, this is just one of those very interesting topic son the forum.


Regards,
Vishy
Thank you and your post was detailed Vishy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
I feel the biggest worry for any owner of discontinued vehicle
Thank you for being in the same page CoolFire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
A comprehensive law and proper implementation on consumer rights is much needed for auto sector, at least as has been done for home buyers recently.
Talk about the consumer rights! It is possible that one might get lost already in search of his/her own consumer rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanjayDalal View Post
My choice was vindicated when Ford continued to sell it rebadging it as "Classic" , and it outsold the new Fiesta.
That was a great buying decision I must say. BTW what were the offers on table for the old model vs. new model at the time of your purchase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
That being said, I don't think any manufacturer has gone out of the way to placate or make customers of non-successful model less stupid about the purchase.
The fact of the matter is most buyers do not even realise that their purchase is a failed/not-so-proven model. If the salesman's stars were shining on that day, the buyer will be done for.
The point is whether he/she is buying for the first time or even if they are not concerned about resale value, it is the manufacturer's utmost responsibility to take care of his creation even after it is sold out and give their customers a quality 'feel-good' factor in any reasonable means possible.

May I bring in the MS Ignis, MM Quanto, TATA Tigor as few examples.
Could buyers of these models share your honest opinions please?

Last edited by petrolhead_chn : 26th May 2017 at 11:18.
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Old 26th May 2017, 11:41   #461
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Default Re: A Manufacturer's approach towards failure and discontinued models - what are your thoughts?

Being an owner of a Sail sedan, with only 20k on the odo, I faced all kinds of emotions after reading the news of Chevrolet shutting shop.

Anything is possible, if there are strong enough, customer friendly policies. In the US, after the emissions scandal, VW had to offer compensation and buy back the faulty cars from the owners.

If I had to formulate a policy for a scenario like GM, where the manufacturer chooses to run away, here is what I am going to do.

# Make it mandatory for the manufacturer to offer to buy back cars at a fixed resale price as per the Insured Declare Value.

# If the buyer chooses to keep the car, make it mandatory for the manufacturer to keep open at least one service centre in a city, with a minimum inventory of most common parts.

# The manufacturer will also have to publish the prices of the parts and rates of labour online, to ensure transparency and avoid exploitation of buyers.

# This should be there till five years from the date of purchase of the last car sold in that city.

I understand that some of it is already there, but loopholes need to be tightened further.
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Old 26th May 2017, 11:44   #462
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Default Re: Flop cars in our market

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Originally Posted by petrolhead_chn View Post
When a car's fate is sealed as 'failure model' the manufacturer has to act upon immediately and provide guaranteed resale value basis the condition of car over the new years.
Why should customers of flop models expect any kind of special treatment? For that matter, as long as you are happy with the car, what difference do its sales figures make? All 3 of my cars are either rare on the road or flops, but I'm incredibly happy with them.

If anyone does care about buying only a successful model, better they refer to the model's sales figures and buy accordingly.

In this era of information overload, if someone is uninformed, they only have themselves to blame.
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Old 26th May 2017, 11:52   #463
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Default Re: Flop cars in our market

No manufacture would ever want a car to be flop.

As Smartcat rightly pointed out, there are preferences and few still prefers to buy a car that suits them and resale is not so significant to them. Provided, if someone there to keep a car for 10 or more year, resale of a sales topper and sales dud hardly matters.

I have a petrol Micra which can be termed as a sales dud and my dad has a petrol chevy Sail UVA (the least said better). And we both got those because we both feel the cars are going to meet our special requirements. While I am going to keep my car for 8 + years, my dad who is now 70, going to keep it forever.
My point is resale is not going to hunt down both of us that much, provided we are getting the satisfaction of fulfilling our need.

The only thing that can hunt the owners down, the manufacture pushing huge discounts to revive the sales number for a dud. Where I agree Manufacturers are within their right to revive price to gain sales, the owner who might have bought the car before the price cut can or might feel cheated.
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Old 26th May 2017, 12:16   #464
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Default Re: Flop cars in our market

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Agree that Celerio is not a flop. S-cross is surely a flop. S-Cross's competitor Creta has been selling 7K-8K consistently every month since launch. S-cross is around 2K only, in spite of the price cut and Maruti's strong A.S.S
Are you still holding the same view that S-Cross is a flop?. After an year you made the comment, it still sells in 2.2 - 2.5K unit per month. (Note that it comes only in diesel).

S-Cross is a great car to enjoy the drive. It actually does not matter whether it sells 2K and the competition sells 8K.
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Old 26th May 2017, 14:23   #465
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Default Re: Flop cars in our market

Let's have a look at the top manufacturers in India and the no of flops in their current portfolio

Maruti Suzuki
Surprisingly, none of their current offerings can be classified as flops. Even the S-Cross manages to sell 2-2.5 k units a month which is respectable.

Hyundai
- Santa Fe
- Tucson (?)
Not including the Verna as it was a top seller at a time and is now long in the tooth and due for replacement.

Mahindra
- Xylo
- KUV100
- Verito

Honda
- Brio
- Mobilio

Toyota
Even the Etios manages to sell 2-2.5 k units a month even though most of those sales are from the taxi segment. They join Maruti as one of the manufacturers with no flops in their lineup. All their other cars are best sellers and even the Camry is doing quite decently.

Renault
- Scala
- Pulse
- Koleos
- Fluence
- Lodgy
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