[sanjayc]

Sorry to butt in, and not sure if this has been pointed out earlier in the thread, but is it true that diesel causes more pollution than petrol? If yes, should carbon footprint be factored in the above calculations;-}

What about other intagibles like, the fact that P costs pinches more than D, it will force better driving habits thus getting a better mileage for Ps, maybe cut out on those non-essential drives where a public transportation/2-wheeler will do, resulting in lesser miles on the ODO and hence better resale value etc etc etc.

Should ride/comfort quality on a P/D should be factored in as well?

What about a bird-in-hand-is-worth-two-in-the-bush funda? I mean. saving 80K+ today viz getting a uncertain resale value differential 5 yrs down the line, when presumably, one's income levels will be higher and more money means less value? Inflation adjustment, anyone? If it turns out to be lemon/meets with an accident, then considering the repair values, what will be the perceived benefit?

IMHO, I would be better off by investing this 80K+ in stock for a 5-7 yrs horizon and reap dividends, if nothing else;-}

And, not to forget, use an IndianOil co-branded credit card for purchasing free fuel on the rewards points.

[DieselFan]

Originally Posted by sanjayc

Sorry to butt in, and not sure if this has been pointed out earlier in the thread, but is it true that diesel causes more pollution than petrol? If yes, should carbon footprint be factored in the above calculations;-}

What about other intagibles like, the fact that P costs pinches more than D, it will force better driving habits thus getting a better mileage for Ps, maybe cut out on those non-essential drives where a public transportation/2-wheeler will do, resulting in lesser miles on the ODO and hence better resale value etc etc etc.

Should ride/comfort quality on a P/D should be factored in as well?

What about a bird-in-hand-is-worth-two-in-the-bush funda? I mean. saving 80K+ today viz getting a uncertain resale value differential 5 yrs down the line, when presumably, one's income levels will be higher and more money means less value? Inflation adjustment, anyone? If it turns out to be lemon/meets with an accident, then considering the repair values, what will be the perceived benefit?

IMHO, I would be better off by investing this 80K+ in stock for a 5-7 yrs horizon and reap dividends, if nothing else;-}

And, not to forget, use an IndianOil co-branded credit card for purchasing free fuel on the rewards points.

Sanjay,
You have brought out nice points. I will attempt to answer them to best of my knowledge -

1. Diesel engines have a lower Carbon footprint than petrol. Some emit less CO2 on highways than hybrids even.

2.We buy cars for convenience. Ah yes if we are conscious of environment/ carbon footprint etc. we should stop buying cars above 1000 cc. A NO-NO to SUVs. Some of us do minimise carbon footprint by carpooling and traveling by public transport but not always. It is a trade off between value of time saved and flexibility v/s money spent on cars and saving pollution. In India 90% of pollution is caused by commercial vehicles (>:15 year old trucks, mini trucks, mini transporters like Ape etc.) who care two hoots about environment.

3.With current day diesels Ride comfort difference is not much.

4. Certainly if you would like to spend at least 20000 rs. extra on fuel every year you can go ahead and save 80K initially. I do not think any investment today has a return of 25% YOY. Investment on stocks with moderate risk can fetch you about 10-15% returns per year.

5. My 2 cents on resale value of Swift D over Swift P would be at least 60-70K in 5 years time. You may check out Carwale and other car sites for difference between Swift P and Swift D in the preowned market which is about 75K for a 3 year old car.

[KSM-Vtec]

+1 on all the points Sanjay

Originally Posted by DieselFan

1. Diesel engines have a lower Carbon footprint than petrol. Some emit less CO2 on highways than hybrids even. - Not sure abt that, will have to do some serious research to believe that. Is there any ready source that i can refer to??

2.We buy cars for convenience. Ah yes if we are conscious of environment/ carbon footprint etc. we should stop buying cars above 1000 cc. A NO-NO to SUVs. Some of us do minimise carbon footprint by carpooling and traveling by public transport but not always. It is a trade off between value of time saved and flexibility v/s money spent on cars and saving pollution. In India 90% of pollution is caused by commercial vehicles (>:15 year old trucks, mini trucks, mini transporters like Ape etc.) who care two hoots about environment. - Agree with you.

3.With current day diesels Ride comfort difference is not much. - Personal choice, i know some ppl who just cant stand the D cars. But ya things have changed.

4. Certainly if you would like to spend at least 20000 rs. extra on fuel every year you can go ahead and save 80K initially. I do not think any investment today has a return of 25% YOY. Investment on stocks with moderate risk can fetch you about 10-15% returns per year. - 4 yrs is a long time in the stock market. If you stay invested even in the blue chips only, you will be surprised to see a 100% return in a shorter time(IF THINGS GO RIGHT ie, IF YOU MAKING AN INFORMED DECISION) you said it yourself, get 15% as per your risk profile + save abt 10% on your car loan = 25%

5. My 2 cents on resale value of Swift D over Swift P would be at least 60-70K in 5 years time. You may check out Carwale and other car sites for difference between Swift P and Swift D in the preowned market which is about 75K for a 3 year old car. - Dude personally i seriously dont buy your point on better resale but try and understand that the extra resale you are talking abt is only a result of that fact that a d car cost that much more.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by DieselFan

1. Diesel engines have a lower Carbon footprint than petrol. Some emit less CO2 on highways than hybrids even.

Actually AFAIK (read somewhere) diesel doesn't produce greenhouse gases (CO2) but it does produce a lot of sulphur particulates which are very harmful to health. With ULSD sulphur content will reduce to about 50ppm (currently around 350ppm.) but is still over 3 times more than in western world. Source for sulphur content - TOI article.

PS: not a diesel fan. I prefer the rev happy petrol.

[sanjayc]

Actually, as per ECO Travel : Petrol vs Diesel, both p/d have almost identical CO2 emission, diesel produces 24 times more particulate matter (thus reducing air quality) whereas petrol give 2 times more CO emission.

But given that more distance is covered per litre in diesel, there is some element of truth regarding lesser carbon footprint. But again, since diesel cars generally cover much more distance during their lifetime compared to petrol cars, a petrol car should be considered lesser culprit on this front, IMO.

[rohanjf]

Also, I read somewhere that diesel produces more NOx gases than petrol. Isn't that the reason diesel engines are restricted by US laws?

[KSM-Vtec]

Originally Posted by rohanjf

Also, I read somewhere that diesel produces more NOx gases than petrol. Isn't that the reason diesel engines are restricted by US laws?

Very true. And the sulphur content but is also what i have read of before.

As per my knowledge there is no doubt in P being more env friendly than D.

[DieselFan]

Diesel engines are not restricted by US Laws. Else we wouldn't see VW TDIs in US at all. Also all trucks come with Diesel engines.

Particulate emission in diesel engines are high hence most cars with diesel engines come with DPF (Diesel Particulate filters) and this reduces the emissions to levels that Petrol engines emit. It is now mandatory to install DPF in cars for Euro V norms.

Originally Posted by KSM-Vtec

+1 on all the points Sanjay

KSM -

1. There are enough research material on the net. Please search on carbon footprint and Diesel Cars and you get all you need.

Some info from BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/bloom/actions/d...html#quickjump
4. Your point on additional 10% on car loan is double counting dude. You can't have 80 K earn two interests can you . If you can't make this out please think again or ask someone to explain you the math.

5. If one earns 75K more while selling the car then there is some much more advantageous to buy a diesel because you negate the extra money spent initially and also save on additional running expenses.

Please go a try searching for a diesel Swift in the market and you will get /buy my point. unless you do some research on used car market you would not be able to appreciate this point.

[opendro]

Guys, let us not bring in the damage to the environment, or subsidy in diesel, for people are not yet going to take these into account while buying decisions are made.

In my last post, I brought in the parameter of how much one will do in city drives and how much in highway drives. This is a very important factor. In Bangalore, most people will easily drive 800 Km a month in city alone if you use it to work and once in a while shopping or visit to kids school or weekend activities to gym/sports etc. etc. I do a minimum of 1200 Km in city itself. Let's take a conservative 800 Km per month.

Why this is so important? In traffics like in Bangalore, I hardly get 13 Kmpl in Linea diesel. I'm sure most petrol sedans get about 10 Kmpl in Bangalore traffic if they use AC all the time. Now,

Cost of petrol in a year = 800 / 10 * 51 * 12 = Rs. 48,960.
Cost of diesel in a year = 800 / 13 * 36 * 12 = 26,584.
Difference is Rs. 22,376. This difference will reduce further if 800 Km were in highway.

In other words, 14,500 / 800 / 12 = Rs. 2.33 costlier per Km in petrol.

I have taken the least distance (for most people, not a showpiece car).

However, if we are really talking about savings in pocket, petrol will always save more. How? When STD rates were Rs. 50 per minute, I hardly used to spend on phone calls. Now, when STD rate is less than Re 1, I'm spending more. Similarly, when the running cost is low on diesel, I go more places and distances than I would normally do when I don't have car or when I had a petrol car. But then we are having more fun, isn't it? If saving money is the only criteria, buses and auto ricks are the most economical mode of transport in Bangalore. So, there is no point in talking like I save money by driving less in petrol cars because it is costlier to run.

[opendro]

Originally Posted by opendro

Cost of petrol in a year = 800 / 10 * 51 * 12 = Rs. 48,960.
Cost of diesel in a year = 800 / 13 * 36 * 12 = 26,584.
Difference is Rs. 22,376. This difference will reduce further if 800 Km were in highway.

In other words, 14,500 / 800 / 12 = Rs. 2.33 costlier per Km in petrol.

Last line should have been:
In other words, 22,376 / 800 / 12 = Rs. 2.33 costlier per Km in petrol.

[Sn1p3r]

I think now we have reached a logical conclusion, haven't we?

This discussion will be more appropriate once an avg. diesel car (e.g. Swift D) can be compared for 7 years of maintenance and an average of 1L kms of running vis-a-vis Swift P.

One contributing factor to higher resale of Swift D is also that there have been far less competition in D segment wrt P segment. I.e. to say Maruti has 7 P cars in same segment while in D segment they have 2 Ritz n Swift.

P.S. People wanting to save are also using LPG and CNG in legal/illegal way.

Just enjoy the drive.

[civic-sense]

Is it worth getting a diesel car, if you just end up saving 25K in 5 years? Why not drive something that is much more fun to drive, have better NVH and low on maintenence? Note: I haven't include maintenence costs in the calculation.

[gomzi]

Originally Posted by opendro

However, if we are really talking about savings in pocket, petrol will always save more.

Umm, going by your calculations shouldn't this read diesel will always save more?

[opendro]

Maintenance cost difference is hardly anything. Say, Rs. 1500 to 2500 more for diesel per annum.

Originally Posted by gomzi

Umm, going by your calculations shouldn't this read diesel will always save more?

I said that because people buy petrol because they don't drive much and they don't drive much because they bought petrol and end up saving compared to the diesel guy who will be clocking more mileage.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Is it worth getting a diesel car, if you just end up saving 25K in 5 years? Why not drive something that is much more fun to drive, have better NVH and low on maintenence? Note: I haven't include maintenence costs in the calculation.

That is the problem. For some, diesel is more fun to drive. Ask anyone who had upgraded to diesel.

[DieselFan]

Diesel swift is much more a fun to drive car than petrol swift. Take a survey of all Swift owners and you will get this answer from most of them. This would be true with Fiat Palio and Punto too which uses MJD engine.