[LoneRidder]

Originally Posted by Zappo

Ok, let me stick my neck out and say something which will probably get a few of the Bangalore members riled up. However, after having seen how the things are slowly becoming across KA and Bangalore in specific I am pretty certain that Bangalore specifically is very steadily becoming hostile and intolerant.

There is more to it! Now, let us not talk about Bangalore or Karnataka. In general, people of Karnataka have always been good hosts! Sometimes every if they don't like, they simple keep quite and accept. Naa? Ok, leave it!

But I have a different perspective. When you are visiting an institute where you earn “Driving License”, you cannot be taking it so casually and callously. Yes I agree there are no hard and fast rules for the attire, but, would you do the same at an exam center at college or even when you go for an interview for job? It’s high time that we be serious of getting driving license. This person says it was Saturday so went in casual!

Just imagine, when this guy is so casual of getting a license how he would probably end up doing after getting one……cutting lanes, parking on middle of roads, jumping the dividers etc, etc, casually….ok ok these are just ifs and buts!

But I strongly feel this is a serious issue. 3 lac people dying on roads every year is no joke. Let's not mix-up how RTO works and the issue of casual.

All boils down to how you obtained ‘The Killer License’!

[TorqueyTechie]

I saw the entire discussion going on in this thread and thought of sharing my views here.

Looking at the picture and if that was the same attire he had worn to the RTO office no wonder the officer found it offensive. Dont get me wrong here . I am not saying that the officer was right in not giving him the license or admonishing him for his dressing sense. But this is the not the right way to go for an official work. (Yes getting a DL is an official work and not a private one).

Some of the discussions here have mentioned about how one should be allowed to wear whatever they are comfortable in and how in US/UK they allow you to go however you want. I have seen people from the same countries when they come to India and attend any religious festivities being admonished for not wearing clothes accordingly. Where does all the talk about freedom go then? Some one has mentioned that they are here to serve us (public) and so its fine. But it does not mean you can go anyway you want and be respected for it. There are many religious institutions which are maintained by government so it does not mean you will go there however you wish! Is it possible? As many have pointed out, certain places do have implicit dress attire which one should understand and dress appropriately.

P.S : I have noticed one thing in people in these days for each and every issue they try to mention how the things in XYZ country is not the same and how progressive they are, how mature their thinking is. At the same time some size-able population from the lot come back to India when their kids are reaching high school or college mentioning about how sick the culture there is and how it is good here. Very ironic I feel. Each place has its charm. Yes India might not have many good qualities but it does not mean its bad as well. As someone earlier had mentioned we have to first get out of the religionistic (Is there a word for it) , egoistic and linguistic barrier which we identify and barricade in. Probably it might help the country grow as well.

[TD_GHY]

I'm grinning at the way people are making analogies here. Ok agreed, he should have gone there in full pants. Now let's get back to some things that were making no sense

1. Equating wearing shorts to wearing bikinis. Now come on. If one wears shorts, does not mean he is that stupid to roam about in his underwear or a bikini. If wearing a short means the same as wearing a bikini, wearing a full pant is also the same as wearing a short (logic of proportionate reduction of size by about 50%)

2. Equating rash driving with shorts. Just because one drives with shorts on, or took his driving test in shorts doesn't make him a bad driver. Everyday, hundreds of accidents happen in this country. I'm sure most of them were in proper attire while they went to the RTO to collect their licenses. Still they drive like morons.

3. Equating this with going to colleges/exams/job interviews. For the uninformed, yes people do go to colleges,exams and interviews in shorts. Not in US/UK alone, but in India as well.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by TD_GHY

3. Equating this with going to colleges/exams/job interviews. For the uninformed, yes people do go to colleges,exams and interviews in shorts. Not in US/UK alone, but in India as well.

This is something new to me and I do not think apart from private institutions, government school/colleges will allow this.

I am not for shorts or against it...

[TD_GHY]

Originally Posted by Sheel

This is something new to me and I do not think apart from private institutions, government school/colleges will allow this.

Allowed even in Govt institutions nowadays. My Bachelors and Masters both were done from autonomous public institutions and we never had a dress code as such. Students used to wear shorts and come to classes, exams without any issue. Observed this in a University financed by the State Govt as well where I taught a few classes. No restrictions there as well on dress.

[AWD]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

thread and the rants therein.
we are just too pressured with all the other stuff of life, to even bother to "waste time" fighting the Corrupt Systems, Processes of Indian bureaucracy and having disagreements with Babus. In general, one never wins these fights without the expenditure of a huge amount of time, energy and effort. And this time, energy and effort, in an already time starved situation, can be more effectively and pleasurably deployed elsewhere.

Thats why I keep saying "Pick your battles".
To me having a battle with the Bureaucracy and Babudom, in a hopelessly corrupt, skewed system is simply not worth it.
Call me an elitist. Call me whatever you want.

I want my peace of mind, in my working space and my personal space. If this means I am living in a parallel "elite" universe, then so be it. I pay my taxes honestly but yet, I get Zilch in return. My parents lived their working lives and paid their Taxes religiously, but have Zilch in return. So we choose all of us, to live in a parallel universe which is accessible to us because of our backgrounds, friends, social levels and to some extent, financial ability. Nothing else. I see no reason to suffer pain, if I am near the top of the heap in terms of the position in the "food chain". Life is too short to be spent on useless pursuits like fighting the corrupt system and evil Babus.

I do not have any of these kinds of issues when Im outside of India - simply because the system works like it is supposed to and you get what you pay for - at least in the "Developed/ Civilised" world. India, sadly is neither developed fully or for the most part, even civilised.

Compare the Social Security Office in most US towns with the Ration Shops in India (if ever you go to one). Compare the Driving

The Income Tax Dept here is amongst the most corrupt possible. Before the online processing of returns and refunds began in full earnest, one would never get ones returns on time and refunds were to be forgotten until you greased some scumbag's palm.

The Rot has now gone SO SO IRRETRIEVABLY DEEP that I really wonder whether we can ever remove this gangrene and be a clean place again, like we were immediately post Independence and right up to the 1980's.

To begin with I respect your views, you aspire for a stress free, easy going, leisurely life. Good for you & god bless. Now coming to the topic, I think OP felt offended by what the babu said. Now I think the babu has most certainly exceeded his brief by a mile & the constitution grants the OP his rights. Lets not just limit this to OP's experience, take it as a miniature picture of the much larger misdeeds that take place so rampantly in the Country. Now how right are we telling OP to mend his ways & not wear shorts, instead shouldn't the babu be put in the right place?

You so vehemently speak against the babus & the system here on the board from the comfort of you home/office/ac but on the other hand are not ready to do anything about it, rather you are emphasising your pov which is akin to telling a rape victim that you got raped because of the fact you were wearing skimpy clothes!!! Sir ji wake up, don't we have a duty towards the society? If we are at a pedestal from where we are capable of doing something which could bring about change, why let it go waste! We should leave no chance to redeem whats ours, speak up, shout, make sure we are heard, make sure our voices reach the annals of babudom & shake it to the core. From the start I said, the new emerging India is not ready to marauded & will fight for its right notwithstanding the silence of fired guns.

Wish that the soldiers of the Country do not get infected with this attitude of "waste of time, energy, why should I, what will I get, nothing will change"!! I think its everyones responsibility towards the society & the community that they work/strive for a better nation. A nation that respects every citizen & upholds his right to freedom of choice. While at it, the forces also have to shrug off their British raj fascinations, not dwelling more on this here, maybe some other day, some other time, some other place!

[kaush666]

I had a similar experience at the RTO a year ago when I had gone to get the advance number allotted for my vehicle. The RTO refused to accept my application unless I changed into pants. I tried arguing, but I had to convince myself that it was of no use. Went home, changed, got my number and decided never to argue with Government Officials again. Their attitude depends on their mood on a particular day. Highly unpredictable!

[Mithrandir]

While I would not recommend wearing shorts to any Govt. office, denial of service because of the 'dress code' is just a show of high-handedness. One should keep in mind that most of the 'babus' in our govt. offices have an ego of the size of an elephant. They think they own you and you are at their mercy. I remember the day when me and my wife went to the registrar office to register our marriage. We both were wearing T-shirts (neat, plain ones with no offensive message printed on them) and jeans pants.The 'babu' looked at me as if he is my father-in-law and I have eloped with his daughter. If I had been wearing shorts, then I cant even imagine what would have happened. Its not just in Karnataka. This 'babugiri' is omnipresent. By the way, it would sensible not to wear shorts to the courtroom to stand in-front of judge or to a police station as the end result won't be pleasant.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Recent experience with two RTOs was that I found the staff generally polite and helpful. The only exception was one senior officer who, when we went into his ofice by mistake, asked my wife very sharply, in Tamil, why we were wasting his time. Ha! If only I spoke the language, I would have asked him who he thinks is paying him. It is a good thing, really, that I could not do that.

But now... I wish I'd been wearing my shorts!

[Tanmay K]

Wow. I've been to the Haldwani (Nainital, Uttarakhand) RTO twice and I'm fairly sure I was dressed in shorts both the times. I'm rarely dressed differently outside of work. No one even bothered to notice.

Maybe it depends on what part of the country you're in?

I'll pose a hypothetical question, something for everyone to think about:

Let's say India was still colonized in 2016. You go to the RTO and get kicked out because you were wearing a dhoti, because it was deemed "disrespectful" to the (probably foreign) RTO officials. All Indians would find this infuriating, wouldn't they? Especially since a dhoti is far from being an immoral dress.

The core thing here is that, just because the 'rulers' in our case are Indians themselves, does not change the fact that you were denied your rights as a citizen (in this case, services of the RTO) because of some individual's arbitrary interpretation of immoral/vulgar. This instance described by the OP, in essence, isn't too different from the above-mentioned scenario.

It's just a matter of perspective.

When an Indian court interprets shorts as too vulgar for public offices, I'll abide. I still have trust left in our judiciary to not let such idiosyncracies prevail.

PS: Temples or other religious buildings are most often privately-owned. They can dictate what needs to be worn in order to enter their premises. Fair enough.

Pardon me for the long post.

[gauravdgr8]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

I don't understand why the hell would you walk into a office wearing shorts? I mean come on! That is not your lounge and this is basic common sense. It is disrespectful to authorities.
And on top of it to have the gumption to ask to show where is the rule? I mean, the person is literally begging for being chided.

P.S. I don't think there might be a rule, as this is really basic common sense.

Absolutely disagree here. Unless specified, I do not see any concern wearing shorts to an RTO. Wearing shorts is no way disrespecting authorities. And I dont see an issue asking to show the rule. If there is a rule, we as citizens have the right to know about it and see the proof.

Nowadays companies like Amazon don't even bother what you wearing to work. These RTO's with their XL sized pot-bellies are shameless to the core.

Had it been me, would have torn the application and kept it on the table of the RTO person, and would have told him that I will get my license by paying 2-3k. Stop me if you can. I know it's illegal, but you are noone to send me home just because I am in shorts.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by AWD

Now how right are we telling OP to mend his ways & not wear shorts, instead shouldn't the babu be put in the right place?

You so vehemently speak against the babus & the system here on the board from the comfort of you home/office/ac but on the other hand are not ready to do anything about it, rather you are emphasising your pov which is akin to telling a rape victim that you got raped because of the fact you were wearing skimpy clothes!!!

From the start I said, the new emerging India is not ready to marauded & will fight for its right notwithstanding the silence of fired guns.

A nation that respects every citizen & upholds his right to freedom of choice. While at it, the forces also have to shrug off their British raj fascinations, not dwelling more on this here, maybe some other day, some other time, some other place!

Point No 1. Getting the Babu to mend his ways. Absolutely without question. But is wearing shorts the right way? In my book, it is not.

Point No 2. I do speak against these Babus. And yes, from the comfort of home. But you cannot say I do nothing about it. You don't know me. I do pay my taxes, I vote, I work with people and in my small way I try to make a difference. The problem is that I am less than one drop in the ocean and hence my frustration. Yet, I do have to also get my work done, pay my bills and earn (in order to pay my taxes) etc. That leaves me precious little time, which I don't want to waste by getting into wasteful arguments with Babus at some public office. If possible I would wish to avoid such people forever.

Point No 3. Maybe the new emerging India is not ready to be marauded. Please realise one thing. Lesser mortals than the powers that be, have been marauded for centuries and will continue to be marauded. Do you think the Political-Real Estate nexus is not marauding the common man today? We pay taxes, India is prosperous, but all the money is vanishing into the pockets of politicians and babus. We pay for so much, yet we get so little back. Litter everywhere, crumbling infrastructure, no public facilities, broken roads, poor planning, poor quality of public services etc. So don't tell me we aren't getting marauded right now. Wake up and look around you.
Sadly, the only way as I said before, is via education at grassroots level. And this will take a few more generations to come to fruition.

Point No 4: British Raj Fascinations? That seems a specious comment.
Is it wrong to expect things to work, when you pay for them?
Do you think our great politicians are doing anything differently from the Mughals and Brits and whoever else have bled this land?
As you say, every Citizen has his freedom of choice - I ve chosen to exercise mine by not wasting time too much on trying to change what is almost impossible to change - the ROT is way too deep. India will continue the way it is and become more and more greedy and venal. And some of us, who are perhaps luckier than others, will continue to inhabit a parallel universe. (Like the big rich people living in their Gated communities, cocooned in comfort while all around the outside there is dirt, poverty and filth.) We are a lot like Brazil, in some sense - where the rich cocoon themselves in their big houses and high compound walls and the poor inhabit their filthy favelas and slums.
The only thing that can trigger a change now, is a serious Revolution against the regime(s). But India, is not united. It is fragmented. So however much you and I may rant and rave, we shall have to let education and grassroots change take their course. And that will take time. I probably have another 30 years on this planet. I'd be surprised if I see this change in my lifetime.

You're welcome to wear your shorts and T Shirt and sandals and attempt to make this change.

Me, I would rather get my work done quietly at Babu-land and deal with Babu-dom while wearing my trousers and shirt and shoes.

No more posts Sir, from me on this subject at least.
ENDIT.

[VeyronSuperSprt]

Originally Posted by TD_GHY

well established firms like Google.. wouldn't mind shorts too, given the right candidate.

Maybe the RTO also thought he wasn't the right candidate to wear shorts either.

It's not just Google alone who can be thought leaders in this area.

[The Rationalist]

There are some organisations that use trousers and nobody feels disrespect towards them. Tomorrow women can be harassed for wearing knee length skirt and top to offices. When a man comes out in shorts, everyone is up in arms. Will the same RTO stop a women for wearing a top and skirt/ leggings ever? Nobody will have a problem, because most enjoy that. When it's a man and if you see the lower limbs, suddenly disrespect arises! Does respect lie on mans lower limbs? I'm reaching 40's, I have never worn shorts in my entire life, but many come to my hospital in shorts, low waist jeans and spiked/bird nest hair and what not! I haven't ever declined my service to any. Hold on to stupid conventions and in few decades such people will become irrelevant to the society. Respect should come from your deeds not your dress. Don't get stuck in past, I have seen many paying big price for resisting change. I don't judge anyone by their appearance or profession, because life has taught me that there are more gentlemen among who look shabby than among the dressed up.

[poised2drive]

The Bottomline for this Attitude is the 'Colonisation of Minds'

Our former Imperial Masters, the British, along with a Bankrupt Economy and Truncated Nation, left us with Imperious Government Servants.

Albeit being a Gazetted Officer myself, I find the environment in most of the Govt. offices to be quite unfriendly, if not hostile.

A Sarkari Naukri in the Colonial times demanded an anti-people pro-British spirit and Govt. servants were efficiently cutoff , culturally and emotionally, from the public, thanks to the well fostered anti-Indian academic grooming.

Well, we, the Public Servants , are trained to view the public through the specs of British mindset, even after 7 decades of Independence.

We look for 1.Impeccable English,
2. Well Starched Shirt and Trousers [ even better if we are suited up ]
while we look to judge the ones who approach us for the Services.

So if you are dressed in formals, you're deemed decent and this works well in all the Govt. Offices. While casuals might not invite any demeaning stares, the shorts definitely carry a disrespectful tone. We are still stuck in the Victorian Model of Public Ethics & Decency and have not come yet to adopt the American Style- we are still on this right side of the Atlantic. [ being on the right side might not always be right though ]

Being a public servant, though I wouldn't object to cater services to a citizen on account of his dress, I'd rather advise him not to repeat this with other people [Middle aged and Older ones, especially] who consider this a way of disrespect to their office [ British Legacy, your Honour]