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Old 27th September 2011, 00:04   #1
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Default Is the Innova engine outdated?

I am looking at Corolla Altis D-4D, naturally the Innova was also considered for cross shopping. During the research I found that the Innova's 2.4 L D-4D generates less torque and power than many other engines (all CDRIs). Take the Vento, the Verna and even the Alits's 1.4 L D-4D. I am wondering is this engine dated or is there a reason that the Innova still needs to have this 2.4 that is rated 102 bhp and 200 nm?

what are the advantages of this engine? Is there another consideration other than bhp and torque (together they provide the power output)? The larger engine size leads to lower FE, naturally. If I consider the closet engine (another T) the TATA 2.2 DICOR its rated 140 bhp and > 300 nm. I am puzzled by this Innova's 2.4 D-4D.

Lead kindly light.
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Old 27th September 2011, 00:16   #2
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Default re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Its matter of state of tune. The 1248cc diesel engine in SX4/Manza/Linea/GP produces 90 bhp, same as 1.4 ltr. i20 Diesel.
That same 1248cc develops 75 bhp in many hatches.
The Innova engine is deliberately kept in lower state of tune to increase engine life and durability. No wonder, Innova taxi are known to cross 4 lakh kms. without an engine overhaul. Main concern is longer engine life with very very high reliability. Toyota has achieved this with Innova engine.

Also the engine output, performance will depend upon engine characteristics, what was aim of manufacturer while developing engine, what were intended applications, etc. Naturally this can differ among manufacturers as well as among segments too.

Innova engine is 2KD-FTV.
Without Intercooler this engine develops 102 bhp, 118 bhp with intercooler and recently a VGT was added and now the engine develops 143 bhp and 34 kgm of torque. This state of tune in again not available in India, but internationally wherever the engine was available earlier, this state of tune is now offered.

Other considerations like Fuel efficiency, fuel quality also affect the output from and engine.

If you are looking for Engine capacity vs state of tune, to the best of my knowledge, there is another thread on that topic.


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Old 27th September 2011, 01:03   #3
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Default re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

As aaggoswami mentioned, the Innova engine is de-tuned. IMO, its done considering the fuel quality in Tier 2 cities, and longevity of the engine.

Also, for making a buying decision, the numbers and figures on paper seldom show you the real picture. Take an elaborate TD of the vehicles you have shortlisted.

In any case, if you are not satisfied with the Innova's power output, there is always the tried and tested Petes 'box

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Old 27th September 2011, 06:29   #4
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

The Innova engine uses very basic ( maybe 1st generation ) Denso common rail diesel injection systems with injection pressures upto 1200 bar and single pilot injection. Compare this with Bosch system with 1800 bar and upto 2 pilots. Hence the Innova system is simple, less stressed and therefore I assume has long durability.
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Old 27th September 2011, 11:14   #5
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

I do think the Innova's engine is quite outdated. Its noisy, had a good linear acceleration but nothing praiseworthy.

Infact, I have never liked toyota's diesel engine. they are reliable, alright. But they dont have that oomph factor!

I feel engine performance wise, competitors like scorpio & safari has left innova behind.
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Old 27th September 2011, 11:55   #6
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further.

Last edited by GTO : 27th September 2011 at 16:54.
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Old 27th September 2011, 12:35   #7
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Well it is power against reliability/longevity. Some desire former some latter. Toyota decided on latter, and all taxi divers will vouch for it vociferously.

Newer engines translate to more electronics and higher operating stresses, hence more prone to bread downs.

Actually many older diesel engine designs are desirable from the reliability and longevity point of view. If you require a bulletproof engine which will not brake down easily in remote areas, and at the same last and last, older engines fit the bill. If on the other hand you want a high performance engine with good FE, but are willing to accept lower reliability and shorter life (after all what percentage of owners clock 2L plus during their vehicle's ownership? I never managed even 1L in 10 years), newer engines are for you.
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Old 27th September 2011, 18:32   #8
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Its matter of state of tune. The 1248cc diesel engine in SX4/Manza/Linea/GP produces 90 bhp, same as 1.4 ltr. i20 Diesel.
That same 1248cc develops 75 bhp in many hatches.
The Innova engine is deliberately kept in lower state of tune to increase engine life and durability. No wonder, Innova taxi are known to cross 4 lakh kms. without an engine overhaul. Main concern is longer engine life with very very high reliability. Toyota has achieved this with Innova engine.

Also the engine output, performance will depend upon engine characteristics, what was aim of manufacturer while developing engine, what were intended applications, etc. Naturally this can differ among manufacturers as well as among segments too.

Innova engine is 2KD-FTV.
Without Intercooler this engine develops 102 bhp, 118 bhp with intercooler and recently a VGT was added and now the engine develops 143 bhp and 34 kgm of torque. This state of tune in again not available in India, but internationally wherever the engine was available earlier, this state of tune is now offered.

Other considerations like Fuel efficiency, fuel quality also affect the output from and engine.

If you are looking for Engine capacity vs state of tune, to the best of my knowledge, there is another thread on that topic.
Thanks. Tuning was my suspect too. But I am bit confused with the followinf spec "2KD-FTV, Diesel With Intercooler Turbocharger, 4 Inline Cylinder (BSIV)" from toyota web site. If I got your post correctly without the intercooler and VGT it develops 102 (which is also what the web site says), but again the intercooler and VGT is mentioned in the spec. Am I not reading it right?
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Old 27th September 2011, 18:58   #9
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

@M & M, BS-III is only TC, no intercooler. BS-IV is with intercooler.

It is still about tuning the engine. But importantly, have you felt it is under-powered ? I dont think so.
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Old 27th September 2011, 19:13   #10
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Talking Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Of Course Toyota has the habit of selling us outdated tech like the Innova and now the new Etios which I think like the Innova is asia specific . If Tata made a better Safari or Mahindra made a better Xylo (I think it has ) not many people would que in to buy the very much outdated Innova . The only international car they sell here is Corolla . Not counting any ckd or cbu cars that are imported , also I think it does not deserve the 12 lakh price tag . I have extensively driven the Innova it has a taxi image and not a comfortable driving position . If the 4x2 Tata can be reliable then with a little price reduction it can fairly compete with the Innova .Toyota stope giving us South East Asian cars like Gm/Daewoo it will not work in the logn run . Also improve the looks of the Etios thet are horrible .
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Old 27th September 2011, 19:47   #11
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

I like Innova very much but I hate its Diesel engine's noise. Petrol is super silent but Diesel makes roaring noise :-) Whatever it is Innova is the vehicle which can be purchased If person can afford. It is unmatching product in India.

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Ravi.
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Old 27th September 2011, 20:02   #12
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Infact, I have never liked toyota's diesel engine. they are reliable, alright. But they dont have that oomph factor!
I agree with you partially, thats Toyota way to be on conservative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by man_and_machine View Post
But I am bit confused with the followinf spec "2KD-FTV, Diesel With Intercooler Turbocharger, 4 Inline Cylinder (BSIV)" from toyota web site. If I got your post correctly without the intercooler and VGT it develops 102 (which is also what the web site says), but again the intercooler and VGT is mentioned in the spec. Am I not reading it right?
As Condor mentioned, the engine output was not increased in India despite the addition of intercooler for BS-IV norms. I did inquire at more than on place and was told fuel quality. Innova is being used as taxi ( Toyota does not like this, as told to me by various sources i.e. dealerships ) and to maintain reputation for reliability, they thought not to change the state of tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anky View Post
The only international car they sell here is Corolla . Not counting any ckd or cbu cars that are imported , also I think it does not deserve the 12 lakh price tag . I have extensively driven the Innova it has a taxi image and not a comfortable driving position . If the 4x2 Tata can be reliable then with a little price reduction it can fairly compete with the Innova .Toyota stope giving us South East Asian cars like Gm/Daewoo it will not work in the logn run . Also improve the looks of the Etios thet are horrible .
Apart from Corolla, they have Camry, Prado and LC200. If we talk about engines then for long Toyota is known to be conservative. Its not that this theme is followed in India only, even in US. Take for example the Camry, yes, even the new Camry get 2.5 ltr. unit which does not make as much power as comparable competition.
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Old 27th September 2011, 22:29   #13
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

As far as Toyota goes we, Indians, are a little down the pecking order, so we get detuned engines that can sip "indian" grade fuel and engines that can be easily serviced with minimum fuss and moolah, that keeps us all happy.
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Old 27th September 2011, 23:05   #14
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by man_and_machine View Post
...I am wondering is this engine dated or is there a reason that the Innova still needs to have this 2.4 that is rated 102 bhp and 200 nm?

what are the advantages of this engine? Is there another consideration other than bhp and torque (together they provide the power output)?
It's a 2.5.

If it were outdated, it would not have met the BS-IV norms, would it? Technologically, it's got everything a modern engine should. Just because it runs in detuned form with lesser noise suppression (and with slightly less than optimum FE), doesn't mean it's outdated. By that standard, a Harley engine would belong to the 19th century considering the noise it makes and the fuel it guzzles.
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Old 28th September 2011, 10:02   #15
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Default Re: Is the Innova engine outdated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
It's a 2.5.

If it were outdated, it would not have met the BS-IV norms, would it? Technologically, it's got everything a modern engine should. Just because it runs in detuned form with lesser noise suppression (and with slightly less than optimum FE), doesn't mean it's outdated. By that standard, a Harley engine would belong to the 19th century considering the noise it makes and the fuel it guzzles.
What I meant by dated was considering the fact that contemporary engines with lesser capacity are able to outshine the 2.4V (its a 2.4+ but the engine is referred to as 2.4 by Toyota). I wanted to know the reason for the low FE and the de-tuned state.
The noise suppression is evident, considering that the 2.2 mHawk or the 2.2 mEagle also compete in the same category and in the same geography (semi urban and rural) would not the fuel quality affect them all? I have not heard of a Scorpio doing 4 L kms but still isn't the de-tune a big sacrifice?
I am hinting at would it not make sense for toyota to look at a say 1.5 L with almost the same output and better FE?
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