[gthang]

Originally Posted by V-16

I feel it should run as much as the gear box does at least or should be repairable. We have seen it is so im sure Skoda want to make money out of selling new ones by making it difficult to repair.

Borg Warner developed, builds and supplies the DSG to VAG. So, Is BW out to make money by making it difficult to repair, or Skoda?

Self explanatory caution in the manual, two cases of failure, and you are still advocating that it can be driven like any automatic. Case of "Customer is always right" gone a bit far?

Originally Posted by Sutripta

This thread is on DSG failures. Where is the link between driving style and failure. I'm not even getting into should the driving style be changed.
Regards
Sutripta

I'm sorry, but isn't the thread title: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly? or am I seeing things?

Saga will continue till someone with a lot of "Seniority" posts some words of wisdom so the masses have a mantra to chant. Seemed to have worked wonders on the anti-Skoda campaign.

Cheers.

[noopster]

"Are we driving them wrongly?"

HELL NO!

Apparently there are cars with cruise control that hve warning labels on them NOT to engage the cruise and leave control of the wheel. No idea how true it is, but given how idiot-proof vehicles have to be, not a big stretch to imagine.

Now consider the DSG, the pride and joy of VW AG's arsenal of trannies. If there was the slightest chance that driving style indeed needs to be modified to operate a DSG without trouble, would they not put any number of warnings on the car and in the manual to that effect?

Of course they would.

edit: also a little befuddled at the options in the poll that this thread started off as, what exactly are we supposed to conclude from the results? It's totally inexplicable and doesn' help in answering the (intelligent) question posed by the OP.

[W.A.G.7]

I have a question here. Did the Octavia's which were sold earlier; come with auto-boxes or this DSG box? Or did they have only manual gears? Apparently this problem with mechatronics seems to have started with the Laura's which had the DSG box (I may be mistaken also); I have not heard of anyone with having an Octavia and having a gearbox problem.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by gthang

I'm sorry, but isn't the thread title: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly? or am I seeing things?
Thread title is a question.
My comment is that I do not see a link.

Saga will continue till someone with a lot of "Seniority" posts some words of wisdom so the masses have a mantra to chant. Seemed to have worked wonders on the anti-Skoda campaign.
Skoda is welcome to participate.
Life is sooo unfair.

Cheers.

Regards
Sutripta

[V-16]

Originally Posted by gthang

Borg Warner developed, builds and supplies the DSG to VAG. So, Is BW out to make money by making it difficult to repair, or Skoda?

I dont know who makes the gear boxes and i dont care. I pay the car company and if they use sub standard parts they are responsible. Im a customer and i should not be getting into the details. The Nano re-called a huge number of cars to change the starter motor. If Tata had not recalled the Nanos to change this, would you not hold Tata responsible? Im sure you'd be blaming Tata and not getting into who manufactured the defective part. The good part is that they have realised their responsibility and changed the defective part and Skoda has not.
What TATA's deal with the motor manufacturer is, frankly, who cares?

The Innova comes with a warning to leave the engine idling for a couple of minutes at least before shutting down. I dont know of anyone who remembers to do this every time. Failure to do so probably would cause the turbo to be dysfunctional. How many Innovas have you heard or seen with blown turbos or with a problem due to not paying heed to this warning? I guess that should answer your question. Sorry its not coming from a person with a lot of "Seniority" whom the masses may follow but its the plain and simple truth as in 1+1=2!! As simple as that and no rocket science involved here.

Self explanatory caution in the manual, two cases of failure, and you are still advocating that it can be driven like any automatic. Case of "Customer is always right" gone a bit far?

Why dont you ask this question to a few thousand customers who according to you dont know how to drive a DSG equipped autobox and are sitting with a failed mechatronic.
What is a self explanatory caution? One talks about over heating warning lights and the other, stress on the clutch when driving uphill. So now the drivers are responsible? Thats Caution? Its Baloney.
You seem to be hinting that the two failures are a direct result of bad driving style. Are you sure you're not from Skoda? Well, since you bought it up, maybe you could enlighten us on what is the correct way to drive the DSG after all so that all of us around the world may finally see what we have missed reading in the manual that you seem to have zeroed in on. Pray tell us what 100s and 1000s of us doing wrong? How do you drive your DSG, or do you even own an automatic? If yes, is it a DSG? If not, you should not be jumping to conclusions by insinuating that just because im unlucky to have suffered two failures, its me who is driving wrong. Dont say you didnt mean it, because you did!!

I'm sorry, but isn't the thread title: DSG Mechatronics Failures: Are we driving them wrongly? or am I seeing things?

Very literal aren't we? You're not seeing things, beyond the title. Its just a question and not a proclamation.The answer was given in a post, by me as NO we are not driving them wrongly as was by almost everyone!!

Saga will continue till someone with a lot of "Seniority" posts some words of wisdom so the masses have a mantra to chant. Seemed to have worked wonders on the anti-Skoda campaign.
Cheers.

Maybe you could start by cutting the Sarcasm and share the secrets of driving a DSG.

It makes me wonder again and again, are you from Skoda?

Originally Posted by W.A.G.7

I have a question here. Did the Octavia's which were sold earlier; come with auto-boxes or this DSG box? Or did they have only manual gears? Apparently this problem with mechatronics seems to have started with the Laura's which had the DSG box (I may be mistaken also); I have not heard of anyone with having an Octavia and having a gearbox problem.

You are absolutely right. The Octavias did come with an auto box which was a conventional auto box,not a DSG. Sadly that is discontinued some time ago, i wonder why. The DSG was introduced with the Laura as you mention. I have a friend with an auto Octavia which had clocked in excess of 140k kms. No problems except normal wear and tear.
Wonder what the manual says on these gear boxes or explains a way to drive the conventional autos also?

[gthang]

Originally Posted by V-16

Are you sure you're not from Skoda?

It makes me wonder again and again, are you from Skoda?

Tiptoeing on the edge of paranoia, are we?

I am sure I am NOT from Skoda, dunno if you will be convinced. I could be the paanwala round the corner, as long as I have some common sense understanding of a manual gearbox, torque converter automatic, and a dual clutch gearbox, thanks to having stayed awake in school, and a membership on tbhp, I think the rules permit me to voice my opinion.

By your own admission in a previous post, you choose not to care about the workings of a DSG, so your authority on this subject is based on your ownership alone, as the workings of the gearbox do not interest you.

You have your right, and I have mine.

Originally Posted by V-16

The answer was given in a post, by me as NO we are not driving them wrongly as was by almost everyone!!

I guess the laws of physics work on a majority basis on team bhp. Maybe you should write a letter to Skoda saying that the DSG gearbox will not overheat and cause sensors to fail, no matter how you drive it because majority on team bhp says so. That should make them take you really seriously.

You are free to drive your car any which way you want.

You win. DSG failures happen because Skoda likes to screw its customers by using substandard parts and charging high prices for them. The fact that approx. 20% of cars around the world have failed trying to adapt a new technology, some due to component failure and some due to driver adaptation difficulty is just nonsense. Happy?

Cheers.

[vb-saan]

IMHO, this thread is deviating a lot from the OP. And the poll is not much of a help.
Here are is my understanding on the issue:

• Is the issue because of Indian driving style? No, the failure with dry clutch 7-speed DSG AT is reported worldwide in VAG cars (not Skoda alone)
• Is this a Skoda issue: No, VAG acted really smart in this case. When the DSG issues started popping up in substantial numbers, they decided to discontinue DSGs in Indian Passat and Jetta (during the change from PD to CRDi). The Superb was then selling well, and they continued with that. To summarize, why this is not reported in VW car – because they don’t sell any model equipped with 7-AT here in India. I have not seen this issue reported in Laura CR TD DSG (6-AT).
• Why there is no re-call: Two reasons IMO;
  • Lack of transparency, and probably they thought the nos. sold is not substantial, and they can deal on individual basis, and
  • This could the real reason – they don’t have a solution yet.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by noopster

"Are we driving them wrongly?"
HELL NO!
edit: also a little befuddled at the options in the poll that this thread started off as, what exactly are we supposed to conclude from the results? It's totally inexplicable and doesn' help in answering the (intelligent) question posed by the OP.

Originally Posted by vb-san

IMHO, this thread is deviating a lot from the OP. And the poll is not much of a help.
This could the real reason – they don’t have a solution yet.

The poll is a multi-option one, meant only for people who own/have owned a vehicle with a DSG gearbox, and have suffered a DSG / mechatronics failure. What the poll intends to reveal is:

1. Do DSGs on Lauras fail more often than in Superbs?
2. Is it more common for one type of DSG to fail more than another (the 7-speed 'box vs. the 6-speed one)? (I have been given to understand that the 7-speeder is more prone to failure, as explained earlier)
3. Do DSG / mechatronics failures have any link to predominant usage in heavy, crawling traffic?
4. Do chauffeur-driven DSGs get misused / driven wrongly in any way as to cause a greater incidence of failure?

The sample size at present is too small to come to any conclusions, but we hope the numbers will increase in the future.


From .anshuman's post of the owner's manual, it is quite clear that the risk of overheating is very much there, hence point #3 above may well be true - that DSGs overheat, and the mechatronics is somehow damaged as a result. However, there appears to be an inbuilt protection mechanism which makes the 'box stop working once it overheats, and prevent further damage. Yet, not many report commonly seeing the DSG trip due to overheating. If the mechatronics module is indeed being damaged due to overheating (as has been explained to me, this happens while driving in stop-start crawling traffic with the shift always in 'D'), then, a simple thought would be, is the overheat and tripping threshold set too high? Is the temperature at which the 'box stops working and releases the clutches, already high enough to cause damage to the mechatronics module?


Hope this post explains exactly what conclusions this thread is trying to draw.

Originally Posted by gthang

Maybe you should write a letter to Skoda saying that the DSG gearbox will not overheat and cause sensors to fail, no matter how you drive it because majority on team bhp says so. That should make them take you really seriously.

You win. DSG failures happen because Skoda likes to screw its customers by using substandard parts and charging high prices for them. The fact that approx. 20% of cars around the world have failed trying to adapt a new technology, some due to component failure and some due to driver adaptation difficulty is just nonsense. Happy?

@gthang: Please comment here first, whether you own a DSG-equipped vehicle or not. Or, whether you have opened, dissected and repaired a DSG gearbox at any time in your life. Sarcasm would be the order of the day IF you are / were a DSG- equipped vehicle owner and suffered the headache of your DSG 'box failing, and you faced a 1.5-lakh-rupee bill to get it working again. Or if you are knowledgeable enough about DSGs to open and repair them economically.

The rest of us here are trying to seriously find out whether we as customers or potential customers are/would be happy with DSG-equipped vehicles (perhaps provided we use them in a particular manner intended), or whether reliability is a major issue that haunts these 'boxes irrespective of how we use them. Sarcasm has no place here. I hope you'll understand, and I thank you for it.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

The poll is a multi-option one, meant only for people who own/have owned a vehicle with a DSG gearbox, and have suffered a DSG / mechatronics failure. What the poll intends to reveal is:

1. Do DSGs on Lauras fail more often than in Superbs?
2. Is it more common for one type of DSG to fail more than another (the 7-speed 'box vs. the 6-speed one)? (I have been given to understand that the 7-speeder is more prone to failure, as explained earlier)
3. Do DSG / mechatronics failures have any link to predominant usage in heavy, crawling traffic?
4. Do chauffeur-driven DSGs get misused / driven wrongly in any way as to cause a greater incidence of failure?

The sample size at present is too small to come to any conclusions, but we hope the numbers will increase in the future.

I was not questioning the intentions of the poll (apologies if I sounded otherwise). Just that its not effective in the way it should be - just 6 members voted so far, and if am right, only 3 of them own a VW/Skoda with DSG.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by vb-san

[*]Is the issue because of Indian driving style? No, the failure with dry clutch 7-speed DSG AT is reported worldwide in VAG cars (not Skoda alone)[*]Is this a Skoda issue: No, VAG acted really smart in this case. When the DSG issues started popping up in substantial numbers, they decided to discontinue DSGs in Indian Passat and Jetta (during the change from PD to CRDi). The Superb was then selling well, and they continued with that. To summarize, why this is not reported in VW car – because they don’t sell any model equipped with 7-AT here in India. I have not seen this issue reported in Laura CR TD DSG (6-AT).[*]Why there is no re-call: Two reasons IMO;

• Lack of transparency, and probably they thought the nos. sold is not substantial, and they can deal on individual basis, and
• This could the real reason – they don’t have a solution yet.

[/list]

Careful what you say, our driving style is in question by Experts in this subject :-D

I know of at least 7 cases reported in Mumbai in one dealership alone of the DSG problem with the Skoda Laura 6 speed tranny, when i took my Laura to the Skoda dealership. I was advised by a senior Skoda engineer to take the car to a particular workshop in Poona which i did. I learnt of 3 other cases in Poona alone so i know of 11 cars in Mumbai and Pune itself and only in two dealerships. Not to mention that the number of Supers standing there for the same fault vastly outnumbered the Lauras so safely we can deduce that the & speed box is more prone to the M box failure.

I agree with you on the rest completely.

Originally Posted by gthang

Tiptoeing on the edge of paranoia, are we?

What has paranoia got to do with this? Im confused with the way you seem to jump to unrelated topics. It is Skoda who may have got paranoid from complaints similar to mine and I think they should be.

I am sure I am NOT from Skoda, dunno if you will be convinced.

Sure im convinced if you say so. Although your taking up for Skoda, presumably without having owned one did raise a question in my mind which i put forward.

I could be the paanwala round the corner, as long as I have some common sense understanding of a manual gearbox, torque converter automatic, and a dual clutch gearbox, thanks to having stayed awake in school, and a membership on tbhp, I think the rules permit me to voice my opinion.

Great, congratulations on your academic pursuit. What do you want me to say here? I never asked you what you do, its none of my business. If making pan after going to some kind of engineering school (Im presuming again by the content in your previous post) so be it. Whatever makes you happy.
Also no one asked you not to voice your opinion. Its thrusting your opinion on others thats not taken lightly. You have an opinion... fine. Everyone should have one. Stop reading between the lines for content that is absent.

Also you contradict yourself. You say yopu are thankful to be a member on team bhp but also believe that we are a bunch of yes men happily agreeing to some post made by "Senior members" even if it is not in the right direction(i have not understood who these are and what you were trying to say). Also you do not confirm with the majority here. So what exactly are you thankful of being on this forum for?

By your own admission in a previous post, you choose not to care about the workings of a DSG,

Where? Where have i said that? Are you reading something that i cant see? Please point it out. I said i should not care who manufactured what part....read it again... with a cool mind!!!

Once too often you have been claiming that i have said a lot of things that i have not... in your previous posts too. I cannot help your singular and infatuated thought process. Singular because you choose to see it, in only the way you want to, infatuated, well with the idea that while driving a DSG equipped vehicle, one has engage it in a "Certain Specific" way, which you have still not revealed to us.

Let me make it clear, either understand my statements before you make a comment on it or dont make a comment on it. And kindly do not jump to conclusions about what i mean. I mean what i write, especially when Im sure im not involving the use of operose or arduous parlance in my expressions here. If you do not understand what i write, you are not part of the majority here who do.

so your authority on this subject is based on your ownership alone, as the workings of the gearbox do not interest you.

I seriously doubt if anyone except you, have a chimera about me having ever even mention, leave alone profess about my being an authority on the subject or ANY subject on this forum or elsewhere? Au contraire, you seem to know all the right answers but do not reveal them here for the benefit of us, the uninitiated lot. I am here to lean not to thrust my knowledge. I learn with every move, with every interaction with my vehicle. I express what i feel is my thought and dont sit on anyone's back if they do not agree. I choose to make them agreeable to my line of thought with strict proof theron not with hallucinated theories or googled garble. I deny your above statement about me.

Yes, i have owned two DSG box cars.
Yes, Experience comes from first hand knowledge and having dealt with them and used them almost every single day of my life.
Yes experience is richer than Googled garble as nothing beats first hand experience.
And whether i know the workings of a DSG or not should not make a difference in my using it. Every person who uses an object need not first acclimatize himself with its technical workings. if he knows how to use it, should be enough. Every man using a cellphone need not know the technicalities involved. Every person using a car need not know how an engine works. Or maybe you are saying that unless one gets an engineering degree, one is not fit to use engineered goods?
Your above distorted hallucination of my words shows your unidirectional path. What you say is the Gospel truth. If you want to believe that, by all means do it. Dont thrust it on others.

You have your right, and I have mine.

Absolutely, i respect that, and you should too. Thgis could have been a healthy discussion, only you chose to attack the victims with your thoughts.

I guess the laws of physics work on a majority basis on team bhp. Maybe you should write a letter to Skoda saying that the DSG gearbox will not overheat and cause sensors to fail, no matter how you drive it because majority on team bhp says so. That should make them take you really seriously.

Elementary my dear Watson!!
You're hilarious. Where did physics come in from?
I have said before...kindly go through it. My cars have not gone through any grueling hill climbs. The transmission warning sensors in my car never lit up, even once. I am not arguing about or against the cautions mentioned in the manual. You seem to think every owner (except of course yourself, if you are one) of a DSG box equipped vehicle is an idiot who drives the car like one, obviously and all the M box failures have resulted due to hard, harsh and careless driving by nincompoops behind the wheel. And to add to that, the majority on this forum are a bunch of dumb yes men only because they dont agree with you, of course since you are right having learnt what you have from an armchair or from keeping awake in class, in school while the rest of us slept through our classes. Maybe the virus never affected you. Congratulations on that.

For your information, what i wrote to Skoda, made three senior persons call me up, pick my car and change the M box FREE of charge as they did for almost every person who caught their bluff. The M box costs 1.25 lakhs only for the part. To think they did all this for me and a lot of others only because we didnt know how to drive their uber engineered DSG box. Maybe they felt bad about our lack of knowledge and took pity on us. Maybe they changed all the boxes for that reason....yes it must be that i guess!!

Must enroll for technical classes on how an Ipad works now since im getting the new one soon.

You are free to drive your car any which way you want.

Of course i am why wouldnt i be?

Why do you think i dont drive it right? Point out what is wrong and how to rectify the wrong. I will be the first person to press the Thanks button on your post please, im begging you again, show me and the whole bunch of us here and all around the world, the correct way to drive it or just stop preaching that we are doing something wrong.

You win. DSG failures happen because Skoda likes to screw its customers by using substandard parts and charging high prices for them. The fact that approx. 20% of cars around the world have failed trying to adapt a new technology, some due to component failure and some due to driver adaptation difficulty is just nonsense. Happy?
Cheers.

Of course it is nonsense.
Its not about win or loose. Its the logic in the entire issue which has escaped you in totality (i am reminded of someone very dear to me on the forum who uses that phrase)

Also where did you arrive at the statistics that only 20% of the DSG cars have failed? Dont throw random figures at us buddy, we dont understand, we were the kids who slept through our school remember? And may i remind you that there have been massive recalls for faults, even when the fault appeared in only 5% or less of the said cars, whether or not it was driver error related. Google this, you will get the result. If your engineering leads to failure, even due to driver error its not acceptable.

Please remember one thing, going by what you claim, if its driver error and so many of us are committing the error, proves that the technology is unsuited.

I am always happy!!

[Swanand Inamdar]

@V-16: That was by far the most hilarious, yet absolutely sensible argument, I have ever come across on this forum. I agree wholeheartedly to the points being made (about the car).

Bottom line is, if the component is faulty, its the company, who needs to man up, accept their mistake and change it. Which they did, in many cases.

Originally Posted by V-16

I was advised by a senior Skoda engineer to take the car to a particular workshop in Poona which i did.

Could you please share the details of this workshop in Pune? Is it an independant garage or an ASC.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by V-16

Not to mention that the number of Supers standing there for the same fault vastly outnumbered the Lauras so safely we can deduce that the & speed box is more prone to the M box failure.

I am guessing this after cross checking my computer's keyboard (7 and & are in the same keys). You are referring to the 7 speed box right?

Yes experience is richer than Googled garble as nothing beats first hand experience.

Well said praaji !

Spike

PS- Whether I improve my understanding regarding DSG or not, I'm sure my language skills will definitely improve.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by Swanand Inamdar

Could you please share the details of this workshop in Pune? Is it an independant garage or an ASC.

It was Asset Motors in Pune where they said their technicians would be able to look into perfectly. Beats me why the dealers in Mumbai were not specified but i didnt argue, i sent the car there. The shifting pattern had completely gone beserk. Was shifting late or early according to its own whim.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

I am guessing this after cross checking my computer's keyboard (7 and & are in the same keys). You are referring to the 7 speed box right?

Oops sorry Spike yes i meant the 7. This is where education plays a big part, wish i had stayed awake in class??!!

Well said praaji !

Spike

PS- Whether I improve my understanding regarding DSG or not, I'm sure my language skills will definitely improve.

What to do? We slept through school na...hence cant have a high degree of loquacity.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by V-16

It was Asset Motors in Pune where they said their technicians would be able to look into perfectly. Beats me why the dealers in Mumbai were not specified but i didnt argue, i sent the car there. The shifting pattern had completely gone beserk. Was shifting late or early according to its own whim.

So, were Asset Motors able to resolve it? If yes, did they tell you what they did? Looks like it is time to dig out some contacts at Skoda and do a deep dive into this subject now.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

So, were Asset Motors able to resolve it? If yes, did they tell you what they did? Looks like it is time to dig out some contacts at Skoda and do a deep dive into this subject now.

No they didnt. They just confirmed that it was a mechatronic failure and that the cause was not known. There was no communication of any kind from either Autobahn or Asset nor from the Skoda technicians who were co-ordinating with me that the failure could be caused by driving conditions or driver error. Nor was anything told to me, anytime re how to drive the DSG gearbox. All they said was that this was a common problem and that the cause was not known. Had the car been within two years old, they would have replaced the part under good will warranty. Alas my Laura was over 4 years old.

I have been posting on the forum, in fact i have started two threads (Links given below) one when i was struck by the Laura Mechatronic issue and then again within a few weeks My Superb also suffered the same fate.


http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...t=mechatronics

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...t=mechatronics