Petes box - Disadvantages?

[Vishesh]

Hi all,
First of all, i'd like to state that this post by me is definitely not to offend anyone in particular or question anyone's ability etc. Nothing Personal At All !

I am fully convinced that Petes Box improves Performance, Efficiency, Emissions etc. My question is- why do the manufacturers don't tune the ECU pete's way ? There has to be some very critical reason ! I'm damn curious on this !!!

[GTO]

As good as the increased power is, I am not too sure about the diesel powerboxes increasing fuel economy or reducing emissions. Fundamentally, what they do is feed more fuel to the engine (by lying to the ECU). Also, some brands increase the fuel supply ONLY at high rpms.

I and Rt were baffled at the fantastic effect the box had on his Octavia. So we sat and did a little research together on briskoda (awesome community for…..well, Skodas). There were few complaints from people who had used the power boxes. Those who did had problems of excessive smoke (unburnt fuel) and shortened fuel pump life. More fuel also results in raised fuel temperature, with some complaining of a fuel temp sensor gone bad. More than anything, it may be the higher emissions that stop manufacturers from adopting this specification as standard.

Then, there are some manufacturers who will intentionally detune the engine (planned obsolescence), only to offer the exact same engine with a higher power spec later. This typically comes with a face lift and a higher price tag. Case in point? The C200 CDI and the C220 CDI. Identical engines except for the mapping.

[s0uljah]

Originally Posted by Vishesh

My question is- why do the manufacturers don't tune the ECU pete's way ? There has to be some very critical reason !

Cost cutting, Reliability issues, FE to name some.

Look at the rubber bands Maruti provides us with on the Swift. At 75 bhp, 190Nm my stock DDiS still pulls and this with heavier, bigger tyres.

Like 10-15% of the buyers give a damn about performance, for the rest of the consumers its all about F.E. Doesnt matter if the car has handling, braking, grip etc.

[Sahil]

Good question Vishesh, I have been baffled by this same question in the past and i guess GTO's reply makes sense. There have been complaints of excessive smoke by T-BHPians who are using the box, but no major problems have occured as of now hence the gains are more than the cons.
@ GTO do you plan on getting the box fitted on your C220? Atleast with the latest upgrade given to that engine in the new C-class its evident that the engine you are running is not put its full potential. So the tuning box would get it to full monty mode !

Hope Pete can personally reply to this thread to give us a fair judgment?

[GTO]

@ GTO do you plan on getting the box fitted on your C220? Atleast with the latest upgrade given to that engine in the new C-class its evident that the engine you are running is not put its full potential. So the tuning box would get it to full monty mode

Sitting on the fence, man. My history with Mercedes is the only thing holding me back

[Zappo]

Actually it has to be something more than just feeding more fuel. Like, commensurate with the extra flow of fuel it will also feed more air for the optimum setting. To achieve these of course the valve opening timings will probably need to be changed.

However the question still remains why do the manufacturers themselves do not provide the same mappings? Well as GTO pointed out, one good reason is that manufacturers try to sell the same engine at two different tune levels. Second thing could always be about striking the right balance between the FE and power. A stock Swift by no means is a slacker. However it still gives a good FE. Now you may very well say that you do not mind if the FE goes down a few notches as long as you get a tarmac burning performance. Sure go ahead, but then manufacturer can not make all the cars, particularly the mass produced ones, based on the requirements of a handful of enthusiasts.

However another important thing is the life of the aggregate components. They test their vehicles for a combined total of millions of kms under different conditions to arrive at the optimum setup. When you put in an external component it may boot up the performance by as much as 20% but then is the manufacturer of that component really bothered about the life of your car in the longer run? How will the transmission handle all that boost? Is the gearbox able to handle the extra boost on a sustainable basis? Only time will tell. Obviously thats an unchartered territory and that is why manufacturers will null and void your warranty if they get to know that you have such a component added to the car.

[GTO - Touring]

Good point there Zap. The stress on existing components will surely increase.

[rippergeo]

its mainly cost cutting, reliability and emissions.
we dont face many problems with the box installed because the tuning is still within the car's tolerance levels. the manufacturer are not willing to take it that far.

there is a nice discussion on hellstar's thread about his pete'd verna.

the injection timings and sequence is changed.

as far as I understood, the injector that deals with torque production is given extra duty, and the pilot injectors which smooth out combustion are used to compensate. this is just what i understood from the explanation sameel gave on that thread.

i also suspect, the box makes the turbo work harder to supply more air.

smoking is a problem under hard acceleration, but should disappear with better air supply(cold air intake)

fuel efficiency showed a marginal increase in my initial runs(by 0.8kms per litre) I attributed this to higher torque being available at lower rpms. but buying the box for fuel efficiency is silly. the temptation to floor it on every open stretch just to feel the roll on acceleration is very strong. you will end up revving the engine like a petrol.

my poor swifts tacho now regularly sees numbers like 4000rpm. highest I went before the box was 2900

more torque, and speed means greater stress on all components , true, but its well within the tolerance limits of the car. we can afford to take that risk. manufacturers who produce cars for the average joe public cant afford to do that.

here's the link
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...x-added-6.html (Hyundai Verna CRDI VGT - A 22,000 Kms Report EDIT- 35,000 Kms Update)
if you follow the discussion to the end, you'll see what I mean.

[sgiitk]

There are reports that smoke is an issue with premium diesel and not regular diesel!

[hellstar]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

There are reports that smoke is an issue with premium diesel and not regular diesel!

I chose to disagree i have run my Peted Verna CRDI on Both Premium and Normal diesel. The smoke levels are almost same, and appear only when the car is being push hard .Also note that I still run a stock filter ( no not even the K&N or Green Cotton Stock Replacement)

[srishiva]

Reliability is what manufacturers want. They will tune within the limits (or much within the limits of the components).

[TARUL]

Hey guys I want to know if it is worth while buying a second hand petes tuning box for my skoda.The person says it is in good condition but I haven't seen it.

[Jomz]

Before reading anything a disclamer :- I dunno how petes work. I'm just guessing that he increases the injection duration by some fancy electronics.

In a Diesel Engine the government tests 5 factors for pollution NOx, Particulate matter, Carbon Monoxide, HydroCarbons and Free accelaration Smoke.

All the pollutants are measeured in gms/kWh while THe Smoke is Measured in Bosch units/ Hatrige units - which is actually a measure of the opacity of smoke.(means how black that is)

Since when a diesel goes for PUC certification-the yearly thing- only FAS (Free accelaration smoke) is measured- there is a torque limitation quantity map in the ECU which limits the injection duration and timing during hard accelaration.Actually the engine is capable of doing more but , to make the smoke not blacker the manufacturers have to limit it.

And there are people already telling that the black smoke increases with Petes. Which is sort of explained by the above.A better filter can help this marginally by putting more air and helping to burn off those extra fuel which comes as black soot- which transalates to even more power.

My hunch is that petes adds some more duration to ECU set- by (maybe) amplifying the voltage to the ECU. Slightly bad for the injector. bUt the manufacturer has now way to know how much was the injector actually injecting if Petes not messing with the quantity maps.If the map values were altered the manufacturer would come to know.

So what do I feel - I'd buy it - Care less about environment. I smoke anyway.Now somebody sponsor me an Elantra CRDi. Tadu you listening??

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by Jomz

My hunch is that petes adds some more duration to ECU set- by (maybe) amplifying the voltage to the ECU. Slightly bad for the injector. bUt the manufacturer has now way to know how much was the injector actually injecting if Petes not messing with the quantity maps.If the map values were altered the manufacturer would come to know.

Your MS paper presentation work?

and you meant has now NO way??


For eg, OE MJT does 90bhp by default. All Pete's does is make is do that instead of 75bhp. So, the engine should be having the engine parts in them that was designed to do 90bhp and hence we are not pushing the engine parts to work more than they were designed to. Right?

[Jomz]

OH.... I meant NO way...

And regaring the 2nd question- the deciding factor on the design of engine parts are the peak firing pressures. (The pressures after combustion) Increse in injection duration does not do much to increase that. (I've to check this up.. but if I'm wrong I'll post here). But turbo charging and cylinder head shaving does. So that is why you see more failures there and not much mechanical failures with petes.

The issues with the higher power- in my opinion- is higher load for the cooling system, which always has much higher safaty factors.

And JK- the MS thesis is on gasoline Engines- Using the spark plug as a sensor to characterise various in cylinder parameters viz, Air fuel ratio, pressures, Knock etc. I miss diesel now.